MADD declares drunk driving to be "violent crime".

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"A well-funded, well-organized campaign is afoot to make it as difficult to
drink a beer as it is becoming to smoke a cigarette. This 'neo-prohibition'
has advocates in the news media, academia and most certainly in government.
Sandy Golden, a spokesperson for the Campaign for Alcohol-Free Kids, has
said, 'We're 10 to 15 years behind the tobacco people, and we want to close
the gap.' You thought it was absurd when city and state officials told you
that you could no longer smoke in a bar. Just wait until they tell you that
you can't drink in one, either."

- Radley Balko of the Cato Institute
 
Since I stated that I have no sympathy for drunks etc, I'll take a stab at your questions, jimpeel..

Is this man as guilty of drunk driving as the drunk driver who takes a vehicle upon the public ways; and how do you justify his being punished as though he had?

I think it would be an absurdity to think that this guy is guilty of drunk driving. There's no justification for punishing him as if he had. It's all about the guns & money & control. I think it's wrong for people to drink & drive but I wont be stupid about it.

If the day comes that those who have been convicted of this "violent crime" are denied their firearms rights, should he be among those people?

Hale no.

What level of danger did this man pose to himself or society as a whole?

Zero based on available information. If a guy can't sit on private property in a vehicle sipping a beer enjoying his new vehicle, tweaking his stereo, cooling off from an argument with the wife or whatever, then the police state is here and it's time to lock & load.

Is he guilty of a violent crime?

I dunno, did he beat his wife before going out to sit in his vehicle?;) Sitting in a vehicle is not a violent crime unless you live in a police state.

I don't even think drinking & driving is a violent crime. Stupid maybe. Irresponsible, but no violent crime can occur unless there is a victim.

I drove home last night, about 3am. Pretty damn drunk, but my tolerance is high. Vodka, beer, cognac, wine, ect.... a well I made it home as usual.

Is Wondernine guilty of a violent crime? No, he's guilty of stupidity because he knowingly created a potential hazard to others in his community by driving drunk. He thinks his tolerance is high and that he can handle it. He also thought that he could drunkenly spin a loaded pistol and catch it. He tasted a bullet for it. Mr Murphy rears his ugly head just when we think he wont, so much for thinking. Should Wondernine be disbarred the use of firearms? An emphatic NO. The man has no victims, so leave him alone and hopefully he'll grow to be more responsible. If he ever creates a victim, then he should be dealt with on a case specific basis.

Sorry Wondernine, wasn't trying to beat on you. Just trying to make a point and clarify my position.:)
 
Drunk driving is a violent crime. The combination of alcohol and automobiles kills many more people than guns. The weak laws we have on the books regarding DUI further the thought that if you wish to kill someone and get off lightly, do it with an automobile after you've had a few drinks. DUI laws are not strictly enforced because we've allowed it to become a socially acceptable thing to do. Additionally, our money hungry government(on all levels) is absolutely addicted to the taxes generated by the practice of drinking and driving. This isn't a personal freedom issue, it's a personal responsiblity issue! Put a crack house on a neighborhood corner, and watch the residents scream for law enforcement to do something. Put a bar on the same corner serving those who will drive in and drive out and the government will make sure it stays in business.
 
In Illinois there are only two laws in the vehicle code that are enforceable on private property, DUI and handicapped parking. You can go out on the back 40 and drive as fast as your car can go......just don't do it while intoxicated.

DUI, despite it's bad consequences is not a violent crime. I don't think any driver starts out to injure or kill someone. You have to look at the intent here. If you get you gun and go rob the liquer store, you are committing a violent crime, you intend to kill or injure anyone who interferes from the start.

I am unaware of any case where the driver said, I'm going to sit here and drink until I can't see, then I'm going to go out and run into a soccermom driving her minvan full of kids to Dairy Queen.

The laws are fine the way they are. DUI that involves seriious injury or death can usually be charged as a felony in most states. Most states also have laws that make subsequent DUI arrests felonies. So they already carry the penalty of RKBA loss.

I don't know that MADD was even thinking about RKBA when they decided to start calling DUI a violent crime. I think they are just turning up the rhetoric, because most people are accepting that we've probably done all we can do in stopping DUI. They are just yelling louder so they can push their next set of legislative goals. Like I said in my first post, when these activists start down the road, they have never looked at what they can reasonably accomplish. Everything is judged by one is too many. Kind of hard to do that in a society with 300 million people.

Jeff
 
Jim Peel has posted on this in the past (at TFL), I believe. I'll confess that I've come to the conclusion that we'll just have to disagree on this subject.

I'm sort of biased against drunk drivers, now, having worked some major accidents where innocent people were badly hurt because someone made the decision to endanger the safety of the public at large, by getting into a car and driving while drunk. Honestly, I can actually see the point of MADD when they call this a crime of violence. If I were to begin firing shots from a high-powered rifle randomly down the street while drunk, and someone got hurt, you're damned skippy that would be labeled an "act of violence."

You can NOT be "on the ragged edge of intoxication" with just one standard drink. I also know of no jurisdiction that's moving to .06 BAC.
 
The standards have been lowered so far now that one drink can put you at the ragged limit or over.

The "standards" are even lower than that. I was listening to my police scanner the moring of Jan. 1 and heard units being dispatched to aprehend a driver described by "the plantiff [read do-gooder, MADD mother or what ever]" stated that the vehicle was "all over the road".
The officer who made the stop replied to the radio base "must be a lousy driver or something....there is absolutely nothing wrong with this guy or his car". Police acting on HERESAY.
I heard another one a few weeks ago where the radio dispatcher said "plaintiff stated that a man bought some beer and got into a car with teenagers in it and drove off". Again, going on HERESAY, they wasted resources to stop and question a law abiding citizen.
It is getting out of hand. If you don't believe it, get yourself a scanner in listen in!:fire:
 
If you can identify the complainant, and the complainant takes the time to identify himself or herself and gives phone number, address, etc, making a stop based on a citizen's statements is sufficient. Often, with a cell-phone call-in, we'll ask the citizen complainant to stop with the officer, to be accountable for it. One does not need Probable Cause to make a traffic stop, but only Reasonable Suspicion. P.C. is needed to take legal action, such as issue a citation or make an arrest. Many cops hold themselves to the standard of P.C. only when making a stop.

Think of it this way-- if you walked into your house and found a stranger just pulling his hand from your wife's jewelry box, and you called the cops and gave them a description of the person you believe to be a burglar, you'd want them to stop and detain the person, should they find him. Maybe they arrest on sight. Maybe they detain and identify him, and release him until a warrant can be served. But they'd be making a stop on "HEARSAY", and rightly so.

BTW, many a car goes by with a lame violation that we never stop for, until the need arises. In TX, No Front License Plate or No Tag Light are favorites. They're absolutely legal stops, but they're a little lame. That said, the Supreme Court has ruled that there's no problem with these "pretext stops," so long as the violation existed. Very possibly, Bainx, your local cops used such a violation for those stops. Or they may have stopped on the caller's say so. Many "drunk drivers" are really sleepy drivers, that wake up FAST when the red and blues come on. It's frustrating to the cop, but many many times, a traffic wreck may have been averted. Sleepy drivers can be damned dangerous. Wake 'em up, talk to them, and off they go, no worse for wear, and not crossing the centerline anymore.
 
Matt G

Jim Peel has posted on this in the past (at TFL), I believe.
Nope. I've never broached this subject before. The "violent crime" ads are new, within the past couple of months.
You can NOT be "on the ragged edge of intoxication" with just one standard drink.
The drop to .08 has place many people in jeopardy of a DUI. A person of 90-100 pounds taking one drink wouldn't be legally intoxicated at .10 but would be at, or over, the limit at .08.
I also know of no jurisdiction that's moving to .06 BAC.
I never stated that there were any jurisdictions that were actively pursuing a .06 limit. I said:
The anti-alcohol agendists will soon demand that the standard be lowered to .06 at some timme in the near (I believe) future.
But remember, when it happens, you heard it here first.
 
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Funny how the laws differ from State to State

Here in Illinois we have to have probable cause to make a stop. Unless the person on the cell phone will coe in and fill out a statement and agree to go to court on the probable cause, we won't make the stop. Complaints where there is no statement to be signed are dispatched make your own case. It's up to the officer to develop PC. Often we'll find one of these drivers and follow them and be unable to develop PC, and they go on their merry way. DUIs are often dismissed around here if the officer can't prove he had probable cause to make the stop.

Just an anecdotal observation, I have seldom stopped the classic drunk driver, weaving all over the road etc. who was actually drunk. My luck they have dropped their cigaret, spilled their drink, distracted with the kids or too old and blind to see well enough to drive at night. The scary thing is I've arrested some drunks who blew .28, .29 and I wondered if they'd be legally drunk when I got them to the station for the breathalyser.

Jeff
 
Harpethriver,

The DUI laws are enforced with the utmost fanatical zeal in the "dry" counties around where I live. This region is dominated by real, live , hardcore anti-alcohol zealots and cracking down hard on drinkers in every way possible is *very* politically popular here.

Laws against *public intoxication* are also zealously enforced, and "public" is *very* broadly defined.

Even in those rare cases where an actually sober designated driver can be arranged, it doesn't necessarily put the inebriated passenger in the clear legally. Very often the passenger will be arrested for public intoxication.

People have been arrested for public intoxication as soon as they stepped out onto their own porches to speak to police responding to loud music complaints. In some cases people who never even crossed their own threshholds, but who merely opened the doors a crack to speak to the police were arrested for public intoxication.

Altogether it's a lot like living in Iran or Saudi Arabia here.

I may be a beer drinker, and some people might even call me a drunk, but I'm not a drunk driver. I no longer drink and drive. Not for thirteen (13) years now. Really. I could just be lying, but I'm not.

I do all my drinking at home, alone, behind multiply locked, reinforced, braced doors and blacked-out windows. I was careful to select an apartment far above ground level, specifically to make it that much harder to peep into.

A couple of years ago a woman here, a single mother, was sitting in her easy chair in her own living room drinking a beer in front of her TV. A cop peeped in through her open drapes, saw her drinking the beer, and, having been previously informed by a snitch that she (otherwise legally) possessed a .38 revolver, demanded entry, and when she let him in, he charged her with "wanton endangerment" (or "reckless endangerment," I forget the difference) of her own child, because she was drinking and there was a gun on the premises (locked in a cabinet somewhere -- I mean she wasn't sitting there twirling it or dry-firing it at the TV; the cop never even saw it until they'd turned the house upside down looking for it).

Her revolver was confiscated/forfeited , she was taken to jail, and her child was put into the custody of the Child Protective Service or whatever that's called. For drinking a beer in her own living room, while being a gun owner. So I keep the blinds drawn, and black vinyl sheeting stapled over the inside of them; I keep the doors locked and I don't answer knocks at them; I don't even answer the door buzzer or use the intercom, rare features in my region, and big selling points at first, until I realized that to even respond to the buzzer with the intercom was to give away the fact that I'm at home. *Sometimes* I'll answer the phone.

As for my December 27, 1990 D.U.I. arrest, after I saw that I could not afford to fight it and pled ("pleaded"?) guilty (though I did not and do not believe I was guilty, technically) I paid the fines and court costs, and did the days in jail, and went for the year-plus without driving that were the legal penalties in place at the time.

Nobody then ever said anything about waiting until 13 or 20 or however many years later and then saying,"Well, because of that long-ago *misdemeanor* charge you pled guilty to, we are now going to reach back into the past and heap *new* penalties and legal disabilities on you, that were no part of the law at the time of the offense, and that you were never cautioned about; specifically, because you long ago pled guilty to a charge that involved the irresponsible use of alcohol and a car, from now on you will be forbidden to possess any sort of firearm or ammunition whatever, for life."

I've heard tell that the courts have rejected challenges to the Lautenberg Amendment, challenges based on the fact that it's an ex post facto law specifically and unambiguously forbidden by Article I, Section 9 of the Constitution.

The courts get around that by just *saying* it's *not* an ex post facto law (though it sure does match *my* encyclopedia's definition of one) or punishment because, in their view, being retroactively stripped for life of the right to keep and bear arms is *not a punishment*, because it only prohibits someone from doing or having something *from now on*.

I wonder if they'd say that a lawyer being disbarred was not a punishment, because it only prevented him from doing something (practicing law) from now on? Or that a doctor being stripped of his license to practice medicine, or an artist being blinded, or a once-virile man being castrated, or a once-beautiful woman having her face disfigured and her beauty destroyed was not a punishment?

"No Bill of Attainder of ex post facto Law shall be passed." -- United States Constitution, Article I, Section 9

"Misrule breeds rebellion."

Maimaktes
 
Bainx

It is getting out of hand.
Thanks to the many snitch lines that now exist with more on the way. They even make it easier on cell phone users. They post signs that teell them to call *eats--- and snitch off whomever they wish for whatever they feel like.
 
Think of it this way-- if you walked into your house and found a stranger just pulling his hand from your wife's jewelry box, and you called the cops and gave them a description of the person you believe to be a burglar,
Assuming I found signs of forcible entry into my house and feared for my life, I would not call the cops until I blew his butt away with a .45 JHP. Plain and simple.


Thanks to the many snitch lines that now exist with more on the way. They even make it easier on cell phone users. They post signs that teell them to call *eats--- and snitch off whomever they wish for whatever they feel like.
Roger that.
 
There are four separate issues being discussed here, and they are getting mixed up and blurred and causing a lot of hard feelings:

1. Drinking

Wanna drink? Go ahead.

2. Drinking and driving

Don't do that. It's irresponsible. The problem with drinking is that one of the first casualties is the ability to determine how drunk you are. No, BAC is not a direct indicator of ability to drive or of impairment, but it's an objective measure. Sorry. Responsible people don't do that.

And that 90-lb person with one drink at .08? Sorry. That may be impaired. Don't drive, fool.

3. Ex Post Facto Laws

Everyone here believes they are wrong. So let's drop it.

4. Is DWI "violent"?

Of course not. It's an attention-grabbing word for propaganda purposes.

But it is premeditated. Drinking and driving is DELIBERATELY increasing the risk to those around you. It's a crime of premeditated negligence with a fair chance of leading to horrible consequences.

Free travel is a right. Driving on public roads is a privelege. Sorry, but that's the law. That means that you have to follow the rules, whether you agree or not.


Wondernine, you are an inconsiderate jerk to drive while drunk, and smug to boot in saying that it was okay because no one got hurt.

Heck, 99 times out of 100, firing a gun in the air is perfectly safe. But it's a damn fool thing to do that shows complete disregard for the people unfortunate enough to share the road with you.

I hope you grow up and start acting like a responsible person soon. And remind me not to shoot at your range. If you drive drunk, you must shoot drunk, too, right?
 
BTW, mere child molestors (as well as regular grown-up rapists, bandits, burglars, arsonists, car thieves, drug dealers, pimps, and hit-men) are *far* more likely to catch a break than anyone charged with D.U.I. in the courts around where I dwell (I wouldn't call it living).

Man, I need to move to where some of y'all live.

Let me tell y'all what it takes to get a DWI conviction in the last two counties I have worked in.

The first DWI case is bonded out on the condition that the driver seek alcohol counseling. At the completion of the course, the charge is dismissed.

You catch the drunk S.O.B. driving a second time, and he'll be offered a plea bargain to Deadly Conduct by the over-worked DA's office. Fine and Time Served if he accepts.

The third time you find the bugger weaving about in a generally east-bound direction while occupying the west-bound lane of US287, the court will bring down the Heavy Guns of Deferred Adjudication -- if he keeps his nose clean for a certain period, the case will be dismissed. If he screws up, the case will be tried.

So...he's out again. And for the fourth time, you catch him obviously bloody drunk behind the wheel of his vehicle. He Has Screwed Up, so obviously his last DWI will now be tried in court.

IF the DA doesn't offer another plea bargain you will now finally have a DWI conviction.

After four bloody arrests you finally have a DWI conviction.

It's a Class B misdemeanor - which technically carries a sentence not to exceed 180 days in the county jail and/or a fine not to exceed $3,000.

Which translates as two weeks Work Release (released from jail at 7AM, pretty please come back to jail at 6PM and spend the weekends), Fine and Court costs (+/-$500).

In order to catch a felony conviction (required for any impact on your civil rights) you need to have three convictions for DWI in the last ten years.

Which means you need to get caught DWI about seven to ten times in the last ten years.

:fire:

LawDog
 
jimpeel wrote:

"So look for firearms rights to be tied to drunk driving sometime soon. "

They already are in some states. Drunk driving convictions are used to deny CCW. In some states, the 3rd, 4th, or 5th offense is deemed a felony thereby forever barring firearms ownership under both state and federal law.

Lawdog-the laws ain't that easy in some states. On second offense, minimum jail of 30 days-no plea bargains. Mandatory jail for second offense and above. Catch two DWIs in five years, no work permit to drive for one year. 3rd DWI they take your vehicle. Caught above the legal BAC limit, the law prohibits the judge from accepting a non DWI conviction without a trial. You cannot substitute inpatient treatment for the jail time. 5th offense-very good chance you will go to prison.

Does any of the above deter DWIs? Nope.
 
alright jimpeel, i got one for you:
two friends went to a park for the afternoon, had a six pack of beer. they were going to be there for several hours, and werent going to drive. police patrols had no problem with people drinking, but asked if either one was GOING to drive at some point. the obvious answer was "yes". that got the driver a DWI, even though they werent in the vehicle, keys werent in ignition.

charges were dropped before it made it to court.
 
drunk driving should not be a crime, reckless driving under the influence should. If a cop sees someone driving erraticly, he pulls them over, if they are drunk, then they can be charged. No more of these dragnets.
 
Maimaktes- you miss my points. DUI laws may be rigorously enforced in your neck of the woods, but in most of this country enforcement is a joke because it is socially acceptable to drink and drive, and as an added bonus, it adds a lot of $$$ to the tax coffers. When someone points a gun at me, loaded or not I assume that gun is loaded and that act IS an act of violence. When someone drinks and gets in a vehicle and drives lives are placed in danger. That IS an act of violence. If you, me or anyone else wants to drink we must do so with the understanding that we've just given up the privelege (it's not a right) to drive a motor vehicle on public roads! We are free to drink all the alcohol we want, and neither MADD nor anyone else is preventing us from doing so. What MADD does want to prevent is obvious.
 
Harpethriver,

The laws are *so* rigorously enforced that almost everyone around here who drinks at all has at least one D.U.I. arrest/conviction on his record. To even be charged with that around here is almost *inevitably* to be convicted. Well, to get technical, something like 99 percent just plead guilty when they realize they can't afford to contest the charges. That was what I did.

Of course, if I had known then that someday long afterward, powerful forces would be trying to impose the ex post facto penalty of loss of my right to self-defense for life, I would have figured I couldn't afford NOT to fight it tooth and nail. I would have sold everything I had, and borrowed money and gone deep into debt to fight it, and appealed it as far and as high as I could, if I had known.

The anti-2nd Amendment forces have let it be known that one of their strategies is to expand the list of "prohibited persons" (persons prohibited from owning guns) as much as possible, by including anyone who ever, in history, was convicted or who pled guilty to any *misdemeanor* (NOT felony) offense considered "domestic violence," be that ever so broadly and vaguely defined. That was the Lautenberg Amendment, and it was just the beginning.

The word has been out for some time that they also want to expand the list to include anyone who was ever convicted or pled guilty to any *misdemeanor* offense of *non*-domestic violence, for instance a fist fight in a parking lot when they were in high school. And they want to prohibit (from ever again owning guns) anyone who ever was convicted or who pled guilty to any "crime of violence," be that ever so broadly and vaguely defined.

And now we have MADD, which long ago ceased to be primarily concerned with reducing drunk driving, and became a neo-(alcohol) Prohibitionist outfit, calling D.U.I. a "crime of violence." It's not too hard to connect the dots here and to see where all this is heading. MADD is teaming up with the anti-2nd Amendment groups.

The idea is to make it illegal for as much of the population as possible to own guns -- to *criminalize* as many gun owners as possible. Those who are only too happy to throw all the people with ancient "domestic violence" or D.U.I. convictions to the wolves to lighten *their* sled, to treat them as so many sacrificial lambs to appease the wolves, saying "Yes, eat *them*, don't eat me," well, their time is coming too. Throwing the others to the wolves may buy them a *little* time, but the wolves *will* get around to them too, no matter what perfect, spotless, squeaky-clean choirboys (with never a skidmark in their briefs) they may have been all their lives.

"Misrule breeds rebellion."

Maimaktes
 
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