Made in China
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fatcat4620
Member
If it took you so long to figure out they were made in china how bad could they be?
Ar180shooter
Member
All else equal, that's not necessarily unreasonable...
But when you're paying twice as much for an American/European product, you're usually getting something made with superior materials and craftsmanship. So really, you're not getting an "equivalent" product, but a better one.
Ar180shooter
Member
Right, because us Canadians can't make quality cars.
JohnBT
Member
"I believe the Chinese shot the steel manufacturers and heat treaters...."
Who said the Chinese can't make good guns.
Who said the Chinese can't make good guns.
Black Butte
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- Jun 21, 2008
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- 888
If it's stamped "made in China," then it stays in the store.
Beagle-zebub
Member
Well, that's part of it, but what's probably even more important is that the Chinese government gives all kinds of incentives to foreign producers to get them to set up shop there. The US government, no matter who's in power, has long been uninterested in a cooperative relationship with American industry, instead being willing to let our industrial capacity decline while that of Japan, Germany, and South Korea have blossomed. If you look at the South Koreans, their government works hand-in-hand with their industry to protect economic interests, which is why they actually have a trade surplus with China. The Germans, Japanese, and South Koreans are among the world's leading net exporters, proving that the issue of labor costs isn't the only issue.
The idea that a country can be prosperous based simply on a service economy is an Anglo-American idea. It's no surprise that after America, the UK is the biggest net importer in the world.
FAS1
Member
Like most people I have things that are made from all over the world, but as I get older and see the recent problems in our economy, I try to buy American made products whenever I can. Of course, that's not very easy and depending on the product it takes a little research. I usually buy based on what appeals to me and the quality of the product. If it's made here then that's a bonus. Saw this story a while back where a contractor decided to build a house made with 100% American made components and I was pleasantly surprised that it only cost about 2% more.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business/2011/10/how-to-build-a-made-in-america-home/
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business/2011/10/how-to-build-a-made-in-america-home/
mortablunt
Member
^ Don't forget that some products are actually cheaper American. For example, Cutco, Henkels, and Shun are top quality cutlery manufacturers, but Cutco is by far the cheapest and makes the best products in a factory in New York. American Industry isn't prohibitively expensive or inefficient. Rather, it is simply not so cheap as foreign industry.
Hunterdad
Member
I'd put that Chinese made POS NEF pump up against a USA made 870 Express any day.
It is dissappointing to see that, but I can honestly say that the pardner pump may be the best thing to come out of China.
It is dissappointing to see that, but I can honestly say that the pardner pump may be the best thing to come out of China.
Fishslayer
Member
^^^ This. They can make stuff as well as anybody. Usually when somebody wants cheap material and loo$e specs, China is where they're going to be made. Personally, I'm fond of bottom feeders from Prescott, AZ and wheelguns from Springfield, MA.
Moose1995
Member
^^^^^ exactly. I do all the purchasing for the company I work for. I buy hundreds of thousands worth of 304 and 316 stainless steel every year. Most of the pipe is from the USA, but probably 80% of the flanges and fittings we get are import from China, or India, or elsewhere. There are absolutely different quality flanges that come out of China. But for the most part, they have the same make up as american made flanges. Nickel is Nickel, Chromium is Chromium, and so on....... as far as cheap carbon steel however, you can be sure that its likely junk. There only needs to be a minimum amount of certain elements in it, and the rest is basically "filler". Hence pot metal. Here in the states there are standards that have to be met that China does not. All that being said, Its the companies here that import the Chinese stuff that have control over the quality of it. As has been said, they are plenty capable of making guns every bit as good as here. Some of the finest craftsmen in the world reside in China. With Chinese stuff, you get what you pay for. Just like here. Heres a perfect example. The Apple Iphone. Made in China. Do you think Apple is going to sell junk? I own a Stevens model 350 shotgun. Made in China, imported by savage. The quality of this gun isn't spectacular, but its far from bad. I like the motto "buy american", but if I can't afford to, and the price is right for something of decent quality, I will buy Chinese. One of the reasons I also really like the Hi point carbines. Cheap, well made, and made right here in the US of A.
Michael R.
Member
We watched a video in intro to business a month or two ago about how all of the metal recycled here is going to China. We looked at the chinese factories and the way they are building them is insane! It looks like they are building a castle. No machines what so ever.
The thing is that China CAN build good products, BUT they don't have the capacity to do such things.
Also, call me crazy, but I think that China's leaders are laughing behind our backs at how stupid we are for buying their junk.
The thing is that China CAN build good products, BUT they don't have the capacity to do such things.
Also, call me crazy, but I think that China's leaders are laughing behind our backs at how stupid we are for buying their junk.
headoftheholler
Member
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2012
- Messages
- 345
The Pardner pump being made in China is old news, in fact there was a inpending lawsuit from Remington since it was a copy of the 870 but all has since been forgiven since they both are now owned by Cerebus.
I'm as patriotic as the next man and love to buy made in America, however I do have a family to support and sometimes the Made in China stuff finds its way home, despite how I feel. Unfortunatly we no longer live in a post WWII America where everything and the best things are made here, we are now in a global economy where the countries that used to buy our stuff now make their own at a steep discount.
I'm as patriotic as the next man and love to buy made in America, however I do have a family to support and sometimes the Made in China stuff finds its way home, despite how I feel. Unfortunatly we no longer live in a post WWII America where everything and the best things are made here, we are now in a global economy where the countries that used to buy our stuff now make their own at a steep discount.
Lots of good discussion here.
My take is trade is good for all nations.
Once upon a time in my Father's generation a great war with a tremendous loss of life and untold destruction was fought with Germany and Japan which,quite fortunately,they lost.
To keep them literally alive our nation propped them up and trade began anew between them and us.
Now,we are great friends.
China on the other hand is nothing more than a communist police state that honors no patents,steals trade secrets,ships out toxic materials (dog food and sheetrock are just two small samples)cheats everyway under the sun,has the government subsidizing the factories,and so how can America or Europe compete here???
I try very hard to wash my hands free of their products.
Trouble is at this moment in time some products are nearly 100% now only made there making buying from somewhere else next to impossible due to faulty thinking and quite frankly poor choices that several movers and shakers of industry decided was best for their pocket book not so many years ago.
That's my point of view only.
My take is trade is good for all nations.
Once upon a time in my Father's generation a great war with a tremendous loss of life and untold destruction was fought with Germany and Japan which,quite fortunately,they lost.
To keep them literally alive our nation propped them up and trade began anew between them and us.
Now,we are great friends.
China on the other hand is nothing more than a communist police state that honors no patents,steals trade secrets,ships out toxic materials (dog food and sheetrock are just two small samples)cheats everyway under the sun,has the government subsidizing the factories,and so how can America or Europe compete here???
I try very hard to wash my hands free of their products.
Trouble is at this moment in time some products are nearly 100% now only made there making buying from somewhere else next to impossible due to faulty thinking and quite frankly poor choices that several movers and shakers of industry decided was best for their pocket book not so many years ago.
That's my point of view only.
mortablunt
Member
Don't forget that China is far more dependent on US and we are on China. Our purchases of their imports make up 10% of their GDP while all the money we spend on Chinese imports only makes up 3% of our GDP. To put that into more comprehensible terms, that's enough for the government to run everything but defense, Social Security, Welfare, all health care programs, and interest on the National Debt, or almost enough to pay for the entirety of all unemployment benefits for an entire year. Ever seen a news clip where someone on Fox was talking about how every single little cut helps? Well, all those cuts wouldn't amount to just our trade with China for even a day.
Lesson of WW2: USA factories = victory
@ headoftheholler
"I'm as patriotic as the next man and love to buy made in America, however I do have a family to support and sometimes the Made in China stuff finds its way home, despite how I feel."
You're not the only one.
If you look at what's on store shelves, most North Americans with families to support let Chinese stuff find their way into their homes. So much so that the biggest retailers outsource most of their production overseas.
I think much of this behaviour is partly due to how we have let industrial wages & benefits fall under the constant pressures of factories relocating to Asian shores. These companies' shareholders & executives did very well for themselves, but what of America's industrial workers?
No matter his patriotism, a laid-off skilled worker whose lucky to get 20 hours of min. wage service work without benefits, is forced by circumstances outside his control to purchase cheap Chinese goods.
Here's another example that is not directly tied to China but results from the cosy relationship between government and business:
General Motors went into near bankruptcy a few short years ago. 2008 was it? GM then used a taxpayer-funded government bailout to restructure their operations. There were many layoffs. Restructuring also meant introducing a 2-tier wage system which the unions were forced to accept. It also meant GM was released from its full contractual responsibilities toward their retired workers. Each one of these moves pushed more and more working class Americans and their communities into despair and poverty.
There can be long-term consequences to a country that has lost much manufacturing capacity on its home soil, such as in times of war.
In WW2 America was suddenly attacked by Japan. Overnight, America's tens of thousands of factories stopped making cars, fridges, toasters. America's mills, machine shops and assembly lines were turned over to making tanks, aircraft, ships, machine guns, shells, torpedoes, Garand rifles and M1911 pistols. Production ramped up quickly and kept increasing relentlessly till the enemy was defeated. Truth be told, Japan's manufacturing capacity had from the start simply not been up to the task of keeping up with war losses. They depended on convoys to bring in raw materials from conquered lands, convoys which the Navy's ships & planes disrupted.
Is this the fate that awaits America when the next challenge hits home?
How will America defend the essential offshore factories it now depends on?
How will sea-borne shipments of these goods to America be protected from the enemy?
@ headoftheholler
"I'm as patriotic as the next man and love to buy made in America, however I do have a family to support and sometimes the Made in China stuff finds its way home, despite how I feel."
You're not the only one.
If you look at what's on store shelves, most North Americans with families to support let Chinese stuff find their way into their homes. So much so that the biggest retailers outsource most of their production overseas.
I think much of this behaviour is partly due to how we have let industrial wages & benefits fall under the constant pressures of factories relocating to Asian shores. These companies' shareholders & executives did very well for themselves, but what of America's industrial workers?
No matter his patriotism, a laid-off skilled worker whose lucky to get 20 hours of min. wage service work without benefits, is forced by circumstances outside his control to purchase cheap Chinese goods.
Here's another example that is not directly tied to China but results from the cosy relationship between government and business:
General Motors went into near bankruptcy a few short years ago. 2008 was it? GM then used a taxpayer-funded government bailout to restructure their operations. There were many layoffs. Restructuring also meant introducing a 2-tier wage system which the unions were forced to accept. It also meant GM was released from its full contractual responsibilities toward their retired workers. Each one of these moves pushed more and more working class Americans and their communities into despair and poverty.
There can be long-term consequences to a country that has lost much manufacturing capacity on its home soil, such as in times of war.
In WW2 America was suddenly attacked by Japan. Overnight, America's tens of thousands of factories stopped making cars, fridges, toasters. America's mills, machine shops and assembly lines were turned over to making tanks, aircraft, ships, machine guns, shells, torpedoes, Garand rifles and M1911 pistols. Production ramped up quickly and kept increasing relentlessly till the enemy was defeated. Truth be told, Japan's manufacturing capacity had from the start simply not been up to the task of keeping up with war losses. They depended on convoys to bring in raw materials from conquered lands, convoys which the Navy's ships & planes disrupted.
Is this the fate that awaits America when the next challenge hits home?
How will America defend the essential offshore factories it now depends on?
How will sea-borne shipments of these goods to America be protected from the enemy?
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Malachi Leviticus Blue
Member
Manufacturing jobs are not required for a decent standard of living, but if we can't make what we need we could be left out in the cold. There are lots and lots of Americans making a very good living outside of "Manufacturing". 'm one of them, but I also know how to skin a Buck, grow food, and hit my target.
Back on topic-ish...
I have Chinese SKS I paid $150 for and honestly, I have no complaints with quality, Steel, fit , finish or function. I'm wiling to let the Chinese beat out the next piece of iron I need and let the Americans come up with how to turn Natural Gas into clean, clean, affordable energy.
Back on topic-ish...
I have Chinese SKS I paid $150 for and honestly, I have no complaints with quality, Steel, fit , finish or function. I'm wiling to let the Chinese beat out the next piece of iron I need and let the Americans come up with how to turn Natural Gas into clean, clean, affordable energy.
Cesiumsponge
Member
This "buy American" bandwagon is bunk. I buy the best product for my purposes out there. Doesn't matter if it costs more or less, made in America or Zimbabwe. If it fits my requirements and budget, it's mine.
Lets take this logic a step further. If it's good to buy American, why isn't it better to buy Texan? If it's good to buy Texan, why not buy Dallas, Texan? Do you really think if everything you owned was made in Dallas, it would be superior to products outside of Dallas? Most of the money we pump into China is American companies getting products manufactured there to sell back to Americans. If they're shoddy products, blame the American company for it. If they're cheapo products, blame Americans for buying them. Manufacturers, regardless of country, build products to the specifications of the customer. If a manufacturer screws up, it's up to the company using their services to do something about it. You can blame American companies for not doing quality control and allowing toxic products of theirs to come back into circulation in the USA. What does it say when a company gets product from the manufacturer and doesn't bother testing it to make sure it's to specification?
This brings me to a paradox:
I hear people say "buy American cars" and that buying foreign cars made in America like Toyota means money goes back to the parent company's CEO and corporation. Yet those companies are providing jobs to Americans. So is it okay or not? In the same breath, these people will tell me to not buy something made in China like Apple products because they're working at uncompetitive wages that Americans could never match. Yet, following the logic in the initial argument, doesn't that simply mean that the profits come back to Apple's CEO and corporation, which would be us Americans? If an Apple product costs the Chinese $10 in wages and the rest of the $490 is pocketed by Americans, what's the big deal? You can't have it both ways.
I'd beg to differ. Cutco steel and performance is inferior to the better Henkels line or Shun. No one, NO ONE in the cutlery business other than cheap Chinese-made knives uses 440A stainless. 440C stainless is considered the minimal accepted alloy for average performance. The heat treat might be better than generic kitchen knives using the same steel but it's a lousy steel to begin with. Cutco is a big step up above what 80% of people have in their kitchens (a $50 department store set) but it is nowhere near competitive to the better brands. It is squarely in the middle of the road. Its possible it is equal or superior to the cheaper Henkels found in mainstream department stores. It's cheaper yes, and it also performs at a cheaper level and an annoying marketing strategy. You won't find much on THR but hop on a "particular forum about blades" and it's universal. I've used Cutco and don't care for them. I currently favor Kumagoro knives. They're much sharper, much harder, much lighter, and have superior geometry. They also cost more, but like I mentioned in the beginning, I will pay for a product that suits my requirements.
I will throw in my towel with Fishslayer and Moose1995. I work in the aerospace industry. We often source materials from China and Russia because Americans can't supply what we need. Mainly metals like titanium and stainless steels. Regardless of country-of-origin, if it passes the chemical tests that make it a particular alloy, it's good to go. Do you want me to believe iron atoms in China are inferior to American iron atoms?
Lets take this logic a step further. If it's good to buy American, why isn't it better to buy Texan? If it's good to buy Texan, why not buy Dallas, Texan? Do you really think if everything you owned was made in Dallas, it would be superior to products outside of Dallas? Most of the money we pump into China is American companies getting products manufactured there to sell back to Americans. If they're shoddy products, blame the American company for it. If they're cheapo products, blame Americans for buying them. Manufacturers, regardless of country, build products to the specifications of the customer. If a manufacturer screws up, it's up to the company using their services to do something about it. You can blame American companies for not doing quality control and allowing toxic products of theirs to come back into circulation in the USA. What does it say when a company gets product from the manufacturer and doesn't bother testing it to make sure it's to specification?
This brings me to a paradox:
I hear people say "buy American cars" and that buying foreign cars made in America like Toyota means money goes back to the parent company's CEO and corporation. Yet those companies are providing jobs to Americans. So is it okay or not? In the same breath, these people will tell me to not buy something made in China like Apple products because they're working at uncompetitive wages that Americans could never match. Yet, following the logic in the initial argument, doesn't that simply mean that the profits come back to Apple's CEO and corporation, which would be us Americans? If an Apple product costs the Chinese $10 in wages and the rest of the $490 is pocketed by Americans, what's the big deal? You can't have it both ways.
I'd beg to differ. Cutco steel and performance is inferior to the better Henkels line or Shun. No one, NO ONE in the cutlery business other than cheap Chinese-made knives uses 440A stainless. 440C stainless is considered the minimal accepted alloy for average performance. The heat treat might be better than generic kitchen knives using the same steel but it's a lousy steel to begin with. Cutco is a big step up above what 80% of people have in their kitchens (a $50 department store set) but it is nowhere near competitive to the better brands. It is squarely in the middle of the road. Its possible it is equal or superior to the cheaper Henkels found in mainstream department stores. It's cheaper yes, and it also performs at a cheaper level and an annoying marketing strategy. You won't find much on THR but hop on a "particular forum about blades" and it's universal. I've used Cutco and don't care for them. I currently favor Kumagoro knives. They're much sharper, much harder, much lighter, and have superior geometry. They also cost more, but like I mentioned in the beginning, I will pay for a product that suits my requirements.
I will throw in my towel with Fishslayer and Moose1995. I work in the aerospace industry. We often source materials from China and Russia because Americans can't supply what we need. Mainly metals like titanium and stainless steels. Regardless of country-of-origin, if it passes the chemical tests that make it a particular alloy, it's good to go. Do you want me to believe iron atoms in China are inferior to American iron atoms?
mortablunt
Member
Ah, but growing up, I've lived in a household that has gone through several different knife sets over time. I'e used Wusthof, I've used Henkels, I've used Shun, and I've used Cutco. We've had Cutco the longest and performed the best. My mother also loves to cook and does a lot of it. We've had Cutco since of I can't remember, 04. Never a problem with it, never a dull blade, never a melted handle, and there wasn't anything food or packaging related we couldn't cut with it. Did you ever watch the Modern Marvels segment about Cutco? I can testify that the product really is that good.
Cesiumsponge
Member
I didn't know Modern Marvels did an episode on Cutco. I'll have to check out the episode. I'm not talking down Cutco, but the knives are simply not very exciting for a knife nut. In fact, if you go on knife forums and search Cutco, there is almost a cult hatred for them. I've used them before as a friend owns an entire set and insists on cutting pennies in front of me with their shears. I mentioned above that it is a big step above your generic kitchen knife sets and I see no problems with the role they fill, but it's average in performance compared to what's out available. Of course, the higher you go up, the more you have to spend. It's average, but most people don't need performance above that for home cooking, just as most folks can make do with a .308 for most situations; not everyone can utilize the range of a .50BMG.
440A is 440A and you can only do so much with it as a steel. I found the performance average, but more than enough for most consumers. I made an error and my earlier post meant to reference 420 stainless, which is what most department store knives are made from. Cutco has done about the best you can wring out of 440A. I'm not sure what you did with Shuns, but VG-10 is a higher performance stainless grade than 440A. I own one Shun and it's a small pocket steak knife I keep at work, so I don't know how their full-sized knives compare.
Blades get dull. There is no such thing as a knife that stays sharp forever. If you don't tune up your blades, they're dull and you're just used to them. 440A can only be hardened to about 59Rc. I have knives in the 65Rc range, same hardness as drill bits. Those need to be sharpened every now and then, just less often than my softer knives. Every single knife I've ever touched up for a coworker or friend or family member has surprised them. They were simply used to a dull knife. A high quality steel can whittle single strands of hair when properly sharpened. Even a utility-grade knife should be able to push-cut paper for a while. The handles aren't supposed to melt or catch fire unless you're careless and burn them over a stove so it's no fault of the product. If melting handles is a concern, you're not really treating them as high quality tools. If you're using kitchen knives to saw bricks or cut open tomato cans...well I can't help you there. When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts looking like a nail.
Anyhow, there are plenty of knives made in the USA...several large companies but mainly a bunch of knifesmiths who do excellent work. I don't think most people realize that. America has a fantastic selection of handmade knives available from hundreds of knifesmiths.
440A is 440A and you can only do so much with it as a steel. I found the performance average, but more than enough for most consumers. I made an error and my earlier post meant to reference 420 stainless, which is what most department store knives are made from. Cutco has done about the best you can wring out of 440A. I'm not sure what you did with Shuns, but VG-10 is a higher performance stainless grade than 440A. I own one Shun and it's a small pocket steak knife I keep at work, so I don't know how their full-sized knives compare.
Blades get dull. There is no such thing as a knife that stays sharp forever. If you don't tune up your blades, they're dull and you're just used to them. 440A can only be hardened to about 59Rc. I have knives in the 65Rc range, same hardness as drill bits. Those need to be sharpened every now and then, just less often than my softer knives. Every single knife I've ever touched up for a coworker or friend or family member has surprised them. They were simply used to a dull knife. A high quality steel can whittle single strands of hair when properly sharpened. Even a utility-grade knife should be able to push-cut paper for a while. The handles aren't supposed to melt or catch fire unless you're careless and burn them over a stove so it's no fault of the product. If melting handles is a concern, you're not really treating them as high quality tools. If you're using kitchen knives to saw bricks or cut open tomato cans...well I can't help you there. When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts looking like a nail.
Anyhow, there are plenty of knives made in the USA...several large companies but mainly a bunch of knifesmiths who do excellent work. I don't think most people realize that. America has a fantastic selection of handmade knives available from hundreds of knifesmiths.
Glad to see that some of you do not think that China is the great satan that many think. It seems that many have forgot that they were a allied of ours duing WWII against Japan, Germany and Italy. Not forgetting Stalin who switched sides after he was attacked.
But I am also not a fan of China even though they are financing our way of living.
The thing that struck me funny though was the US was and always has been a nation built on the cheap. Cheap land (Homestead Act), cheap whisky, cheap energy (Westinghouse as well as Edison), cheap fuel (Rockefeller, Standard Oil), cheap transportation (Ford), cheap steel (Carnegie), cheaper transportation (railways), cheap freight hauling, cheap postage, cheap shipping (UPS) and yes cheap firearms (Colt, Remington, Savage, and Mr. Smith and Mr Wesson).
So why am I not supprised that we keep going for the cheap (less expensive, WalMart/K-Mart) items and keep complaining about how bad we have it.
I guess it's just in our DNA.
Jim
But I am also not a fan of China even though they are financing our way of living.
The thing that struck me funny though was the US was and always has been a nation built on the cheap. Cheap land (Homestead Act), cheap whisky, cheap energy (Westinghouse as well as Edison), cheap fuel (Rockefeller, Standard Oil), cheap transportation (Ford), cheap steel (Carnegie), cheaper transportation (railways), cheap freight hauling, cheap postage, cheap shipping (UPS) and yes cheap firearms (Colt, Remington, Savage, and Mr. Smith and Mr Wesson).
So why am I not supprised that we keep going for the cheap (less expensive, WalMart/K-Mart) items and keep complaining about how bad we have it.
I guess it's just in our DNA.
Jim
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mortablunt
Member
To put it bluntly, America was founded by greedy opportunists. Why go for a hard, dangerous life compared to a safe, easy life in Europe? Because you could strike it rich in North America. Why go west? Opportunity to grow rich and successful. Why go further for a gasoline fillup? Because it's a few cents cheaper in the next town than it is by where you live.
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