Made the jump to annealing.

[N555]

I spend a considerable amount of time getting my brass work hardened just the way I like, to take a blow torch to a case might be counterproductive to my program. I do have cases set aside for future consideration and perhaps annealing will show an improvement on paper and perhaps not..

I don't anneal 30-30 brass, I actually want high neck tension in ammo used in a tube mag gun.
If you load developed with hard brass, no annealing and all of a sudden add annealing it will probably make groups worse.

 

[Varminterror]

There is no correct temperature.
Annealing is what ever you need it to be.
If you want to anneal after sizing and barely heat the brass up to try and knock the hardness down a smidgen to extend brass life that appears work, kind of.

Holy rusted metal, Batman… this is utter nonsense.

Materials sciences are well documented, and there are a ton of references readily available which demonstrate and explicate what we call annealing of cartridge brass.

 

[Laphroaig]

If you’d have bothered to read the thread:

I was replying to your post that said:

All objective science around “color change” and “glow” based methods proves both to be a waste of time, neither to be based on any factual science

Make up your mind.

 

[Varminterror]

Make up your mind.

My mind has been made up on this topic for 20yrs.

Annealing by “glow” or “color change” is pseudoscience at best, and a fool’s errand.

 

[N555]

Holy rusted metal, Batman… this is utter nonsense.

Materials sciences are well documented, and there are a ton of references readily available which demonstrate and explicate what we call annealing of cartridge brass.

If all someone wants to do is soften the brass a tiny bit for longer life how is that wrong?
I agree it doesn't do anything for consistently and appears to add more inconsistencies.
But it works for getting more shots out of brass cases.

 

[kmw1954]

I read every one of these discussions and have come to the conclusion that this is all Voo-Doo magic. I am not a degreed metallurgist nor an expert. Just a recreational shooter/reloader. I have a way that I do it, right or wrong it is what I do and all I can go by is results. Since I started doing this my scores have improved noticeably and my brass is lasting longer and to me that is all that matters. So is it correct? I doubt it, is it perfect? Again I doubt it. But it has made a difference.

 

[N555]

My mind has been made up on this topic for 20yrs.

Annealing by “glow” or “color change” is pseudoscience at best, and a fool’s errand.

Except I actually have a case neck hardness tester and can prove annealing in the range of 750f to 900f doesn't really do anything. The way I do it takes brass that's been fired once, been reloaded with annealing or has had multiple firings with out annealing and returns it all back to factory hardness and consistency.
What do you have?

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

More popcorn!

 

[N555]

I read every one of these discussions and have come to the conclusion that this is all Voo-Doo magic. I am not a degreed metallurgist nor an expert. Just a recreational shooter/reloader. I have a way that I do it, right or wrong it is what I do and all I can go by is results. Since I started doing this my scores have improved noticeably and my brass is lasting longer and to me that is all that matters. So is it correct? I doubt it, is it perfect? Again I doubt it. But it has made a difference.

The only perfect annealing is the AMP annealing system.
No one appears to have put anywhere near the time and money into testing and development than they have.

 

[Varminterror]

Except I actually have a case neck hardness tester and can prove annealing in the range of 750f to 900f doesn't really do anything. The way I do it takes brass that's been fired once, been reloaded with annealing or has had multiple firings with out annealing and returns it all back to factory hardness and consistency.
What do you have?

Go use your tool to disprove all of the established science, and someone might believe your BS. I went through brinnell hardness testing, deformation force testing, even grain structure analysis when I had access to SEM, and what I learned was that the scientists before me were correct - and that BS like yours we hear around gun counters and forums isn’t disproving years of established materials science.

 

[Varminterror]

The only perfect annealing is the AMP annealing system.
No one appears to have put anywhere near the time and money into testing and development than they have.

Which is why I own and use an AMP Annealer.

 

[JFrank]

I read every one of these discussions and have come to the conclusion that this is all Voo-Doo magic. I am not a degreed metallurgist nor an expert. Just a recreational shooter/reloader. I have a way that I do it, right or wrong it is what I do and all I can go by is results. Since I started doing this my scores have improved noticeably and my brass is lasting longer and to me that is all that matters. So is it correct? I doubt it, is it perfect? Again I doubt it. But it has made a difference.

We’ve chatted a few times and what I like here and I think it shows in your program is that you’ve put in the work and make performance based decisions.
Nicely done
J

 

[N555]

Which is why I own and use an AMP Annealer.

So you are already doing it pretty close to how I do it and you don't even realize it.

Go use your tool to disprove all of the established science, and someone might believe your BS. I went through brinnell hardness testing, deformation force testing, even grain structure analysis when I had access to SEM, and what I learned was that the scientists before me were correct - and that BS like yours we hear around gun counters and forums isn’t disproving years of established materials science.

How do you brinnell test brass case necks?
If you know so much why use the amp machine at all?
Sounds like you could so a lot better.

 

[Varminterror]

Since I started doing this my scores have improved noticeably and my brass is lasting longer and to me that is all that matters. So is it correct? I doubt it, is it perfect? Again I doubt it. But it has made a difference.

In general, most people which start Annealing find it does improve their results. There ARE guys like @South Prairie Jim which find they get worsened results, which largely describes that their non-annealing process was more consistent than the result of their annealing process, so they go back to not annealing. We’ve all heard countless guys say “well, I tried it, but didn’t see a difference so I stopped.” BUT… in general, when it comes to annealing, as long as we’re not overheating (running dead soft, heating the entire case, burning away zinc, etc) and as long as we’re actually heating enough to influence grain structure, doing SOMETHING wrong should at least end up better than not doing anything.

But overcooking brass does come with consequences which are also likely to be holding points off of your score. Shifting from “inconsistent primary ignition due to inconsistent neck tension” to “inconsistent primary ignition due to inSUFFICIENT neck tension.”

But it’s patently false to say “There is no correct temperature. Annealing is what ever you need it to be.” and saying such flies in the face of the intelligent and diligent folks which have literally written books on materials science pertinent to this subject. This below shows 1) there IS a correct temperature, and 2) there ARE wrong temperatures. Saying otherwise is absolute nonsense, and it is apparent you are intentionally misleading folks away from good and proven science.

 

[N555]

I read every one of these discussions and have come to the conclusion that this is all Voo-Doo magic. I am not a degreed metallurgist nor an expert. Just a recreational shooter/reloader. I have a way that I do it, right or wrong it is what I do and all I can go by is results. Since I started doing this my scores have improved noticeably and my brass is lasting longer and to me that is all that matters. So is it correct? I doubt it, is it perfect? Again I doubt it. But it has made a difference.

It kind of is voodoo.
Whatever you are doing appears to work.
Care to share?

 

[N555]

In general, most people which start Annealing find it does improve their results. There ARE guys like @South Prairie Jim which find they get worsened results, which largely describes that their non-annealing process was more consistent than the result of their annealing process, so they go back to not annealing. We’ve all heard countless guys say “well, I tried it, but didn’t see a difference so I stopped.” BUT… in general, when it comes to annealing, as long as we’re not overheating (running dead soft, heating the entire case, burning away zinc, etc) and as long as we’re actually heating enough to influence grain structure, doing SOMETHING wrong should at least end up better than not doing anything.

But overcooking brass does come with consequences which are also likely to be holding points off of your score. Shifting from “inconsistent primary ignition due to inconsistent neck tension” to “inconsistent primary ignition due to inSUFFICIENT neck tension.”

But it’s patently false to say “There is no correct temperature. Annealing is what ever you need it to be.” and saying such flies in the face of the intelligent and diligent folks which have literally written books on materials science pertinent to this subject. This below shows 1) there IS a correct temperature, and 2) there ARE wrong temperatures. Saying otherwise is absolute nonsense, and it is apparent you are intentionally misleading folks away from good and proven science.

View attachment 1144453

There is no correct single temperature. It's temperature and time.
Annealing is what the user needs it to be.
A factory that makes brass cartridges is going to have a completely different annealing process than say a factory that makes forged brass valves.
A reloader who is slightly annealing the brass simply to get longer life isn't going to buy an AMP machine. They aren't perfectly annealing the brass but it achieves the stated goal. I'm not going to convince them they are doing it all wrong.

 

[Varminterror]

There is no correct single temperature. It's temperature and time.

There is a matrix of exposure times and temperatures which create the stress relief we’re seeking. But established science shows that there is NO time which aligns with temperatures below 500 degrees to do anything at all to brass, and there is NO time which brass can achieve over 850 degrees, even for a second, and not cause over-annealing. So there ARE wrong temperatures, and 900+ certainly is that - which aligns with any temp at which brass is changing color or glowing.

And for the record, no, what I do with an AMP is not “very close” to the damage you depicted doing to your brass in your coil above.

 

[JFrank]

In general, most people which start Annealing find it does improve their results. There ARE guys like @South Prairie Jim which find they get worsened results, which largely describes that their non-annealing process was more consistent than the result of their annealing process, so they go back to not annealing. We’ve all heard countless guys say “well, I tried it, but didn’t see a difference so I stopped.” BUT… in general, when it comes to annealing, as long as we’re not overheating (running dead soft, heating the entire case, burning away zinc, etc) and as long as we’re actually heating enough to influence grain structure, doing SOMETHING wrong should at least end up better than not doing anything.

But overcooking brass does come with consequences which are also likely to be holding points off of your score. Shifting from “inconsistent primary ignition due to inconsistent neck tension” to “inconsistent primary ignition due to inSUFFICIENT neck tension.”

But it’s patently false to say “There is no correct temperature. Annealing is what ever you need it to be.” and saying such flies in the face of the intelligent and diligent folks which have literally written books on materials science pertinent to this subject. This below shows 1) there IS a correct temperature, and 2) there ARE wrong temperatures. Saying otherwise is absolute nonsense, and it is apparent you are intentionally misleading folks away from good and proven science.

View attachment 1144453

That AMP machine is just head and shoulders beyond the competition.
I used that MAP gas to ruin several cases before canning the practice and later found out I bought the wrong stuff, old news’ and luckily my current combo shoots pretty decent without annealing so for the moment I save a grand and my hunting rifles.. well.. the deer don’t complain.

 

[N555]

Now you admit it's time and temperature?
Sounds like you don't know how hot the amp gets. Do you even have one?
I know 850f for a few seconds almost doesn't do anything and now I can prove it.
If you knew what you say you knew then you would know that brass can be annealed at 500f but it takes at least months and only appears to useful in an academic environment.

 

[N555]

That AMP machine is just head and shoulders beyond the competition.
I used that MAP gas to ruin several cases before canning the practice and later found out I bought the wrong stuff, old news’ and luckily my current combo shoots pretty decent without annealing so for the moment I save a grand and my hunting rifles.. well.. the deer don’t complain.

If it works don't fix it.
If cases start splitting maybe give it another try.

 

[LoonWulf]

Have you tried regular propane instead of maps gas ?

Yeah, propane works well. I just have map on there for other stuff.

 

[AJC1]

I don't anneal 30-30 brass, I actually want high neck tension in ammo used in a tube mag gun.
If you load developed with hard brass, no annealing and all of a sudden add annealing it will probably make groups worse.

High hardness brass may give more tension but that is not really sensible. The crimp locks the bullet from bring pushed deeper in the case, and uniform neck tension is the key to accuracy. I'm not saying annealing is required, but hard brass for high neck tension is definitely the long way around.

 

[LoonWulf]

That's why I get it near dead soft and work the hardness back into it...

How do you go about that? I had to scrap a whole pile of Nosler 06 bras because i got them too soft, would rather not do that if theres a way to fix it.

 

[jmorris]

At least here im allowed to have my grill on the porch or deck.

We heat our home & water with propane here.

I spend a considerable amount of time getting my brass work hardened just the way I like, to take a blow torch to a case might be counterproductive to my program. I do have cases set aside for future consideration and perhaps annealing will show an improvement on paper and perhaps not..

From what I have observed there are a number of variables. For perfect fitting brass like is common in benchrest where necks have to be turned before they would even fit, I can shoot a case 40 times and not split the neck, without annealing. However, the brass isn’t being moved much at all. I can shoot the same case 3 times in a row without even sizing it, just replacing primer, charge and bullet.

My belt fed 308 can’t do that though. Also requires noticeably more effort upon resizing because the brass is allowed to blow out to a much greater degree.

 

[JFrank]

Yeah, propane works well. I just have map on there for other stuff.

I’m always learning every day Bra, I remember crying over toasted Lapua brass for my BR.
Dang it was not exactly the words I used but you get the idea.