"Magazine Safety": Good Idea or Tool of the Devil?

[goon]

IIRC, the original Browning HP design used a magazine disconnect as a way to help officers who were used to revolvers remain alive when they switched to semi-autos.
But I still utterly freakin' hate them!
They're a useless mechanical part that does nothing for me other than adding one more thing that can fail on my gun. No thanks. I won't buy a handgun with a mag disconnect.

 

[fastbolt]

Magazine safeties have been around for quite a while. Studies have reportedly shown that they've saved numerous LE lives, but not cost any lives. Some LE agencies have required them and some have specifically requested pistols normally produced with them be made without them for a contract order. The manufacturers have met demands as requested.

I've carried a number of issued S&W 3rd gen guns for 21 years without any issues involving the magazine safeties. I've fired many tens of thousands of rounds through such guns myself and have observed upwards of 50-100K rounds per year fired by our folks since we adopted them 21 years ago. I've seen one ejector depressor plunger (the mag safety plunger) badly chewed up by a broken ejector tip due to repeated usage with the broken ejector. Naturally, I replaced both parts.

Bottom line, as long as the design of the mag safety doesn't compromise the normal functioning when everything is in normal good condition, or adversely affect the trigger pull (like on the Browning design), I have no qualms about it.

Just my thoughts and experiences. Other folks certainly have their own.

 

[earplug]

Shooting game problem

If you ever shoot IDPA or USPSA or other games, you have to show the weapon is clear and drop the hammer/firing pin prior to holstering the pistol.
Its a hassle to carry a empty magazine to drop the hammer.

 

[Hangingrock]

If you ever shoot IDPA or USPSA or other games,

Those are games as you said are they not?

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I hate the one in the Hi Power. I don't like them in general either.

 

[basicblur]

And the ability to eject the mag and make the gun inoperable during a wrestling match for it sure sounds like a good idea for cops. I'd never thought of it that way.

Yup-I'm not much for 'em since I'm not an LEO, but I don't automatically dismiss 'em either-they have their place. I recently picked up a used (1 month old, looked like never fired) M&P 357 SIG Police Special (night sights, 3 magazines, magazine safety).

Folks who automatically dismiss 'em just sounds like a lot of 'Net chatter-mebbe the same folks that used to automatically pull their catalytic converters?
I'm pretty sure I've run across all the following info in the past:
1. Some studies have shown a large number of officers were killed with their own weapon (can't recall the percentage, but it was much higher than I'd have thought).
2. As others have stated, a magazine safety has allowed a number of LEOs in a struggle that realized they weren't going to be able to maintain control of their weapon to hit the mag release, let the BG have the (now useless) gun, and go for distance and their backup gun.
3. Is not the Browning High Power the only gun on which the magazine safety has a direct impact on trigger pull? From what I remember, seems newer models/makers learned from that?

 

[DenaliPark]

Magazine disconnects are the work of the devil if you happen to get killed because your magazine dropped on you, or a gift from God because it did, and you didn't!

 

[highorder]

Is not the Browning High Power the only gun on which the magazine safety has a direct impact on trigger pull?

The Ruger SR9 trigger is drastically affected by the mag safety.

My S&W 4506 mag safety has no affect on trigger pull.

 

[fastbolt]

Some studies have shown a large number of officers were killed with their own weapon (can't recall the percentage, but it was much higher than I'd have thought).

I've also encountered a few instances where other instructors came up with "statistics" that showed surprisingly large numbers of cops were killed with their weapons.

The FBI stats from 2000-2009 show that of the 536 officers feloniously killed in that 10 year period, 26 were killed with their own weapon when the weapon was stolen and 15 were killed with their own weapon when it wasn't stolen. http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2009/data/table_13.html

Just in 2009, 48 cops were feloniously killed, 2 of them by their own weapons. http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2009/feloniouslykilled.html (Lots of tables with other data can be found linked further down in the subject topics.)

Naturally, some of the situations taken from that 10 year total, viewed from localized areas and perspective, might show a higher or lower percentage of an occurrence in specific areas.

 

[bigfatdave]

Is not the Browning High Power the only gun on which the magazine safety has a direct impact on trigger pull? From what I remember, seems newer models/makers learned from that?

nope!
Hel, my Ruger mkIII has one, and it is a pure target gun.
Removing the magazine interlock (it is NOT a safety!) made as much improvement in the gun's function as adding a target hammer and sear.

 

[basicblur]

The Ruger SR9 trigger is drastically affected by the mag safety.

The quote I read 'bout the High Power being the only gun with a mag safety directly affecting the trigger pull was probably made before the SR9 came out.
There's no reason why a well designed magazine safety should make any difference in the trigger pull of a gun.

Hel, my Ruger mkIII has one, and it is a pure target gun.

I (and I'm sure the person making the quote 'bout which guns have 'em) was referring only to SD guns.

I don't care for 'em, but if I was a LEO, I'd think awfully hard about dismissing 'em.

 

[1Deernut]

hate 'em. Have one on an old duty 4006. Like the gun, hate the disconnect "safety"...

 

[GLOOB]

I don't mind them at all... (as long as I can disable them).

Actually, even then I find it annoying. I keep meaning to disable the mag safety on my friend's MKIII, but then I remember what a royal PITA it was the first time around.

 

[19-3Ben]

Another vote for 'absolutely could not care less about them one way or another.'

 

[KodiakBeer]

On the BHP it adds about 15% to the trigger pull weight which doesn't sound bad, but worse, it adds a grittiness to the trigger that is just... undesirable.

On older Hi Powers it takes less than a minute to remove since you can knock a small pin out of the trigger and drag the offending part out through the mag well. On the newer Hi Powers it takes more like 10 to 30 minutes since you have to remove two pins, remove and replace the trigger assembly. Still pretty easy, and well worth the trouble.

 

[Jim K]

My, my! More ranting and screaming.

Magazine safeties made sense in the early days when folks were not familiar with auto pistols and thought removing the magazine really unloaded the pistol, forgetting about the round in the chamber. Today, I think they are unnecessary, but I don't much care and am not going to go raving insane about them.

Jim

 

[orionengnr]

Why can't I select options one and four?

I bought a used Ruger MkIII Hunter for a couldn't-pass-it-up price.
Mag safety, loaded chamber indicator, internal lock...no thanks. Sold it--I'll stick with my MkII.

 

[EddieNFL]

Magazine safeties made sense in the early days when folks were not familiar with auto pistols and thought removing the magazine really unloaded the pistol, forgetting about the round in the chamber.

When trying to make something idiot proof, never underestimate the power of an idiot.

 

[KodiakBeer]

A gun, any gun, is only as good as its trigger. The trigger determines how well you can shoot the gun in the real world.

If a mag disconnect doesn't affect the trigger pull it's just an academic question whether to remove it or not.

On some guns (the BHP in particular), it really does affect the trigger and is best removed (IMHO). On other guns, maybe not so much...

 

[carbuncle]

I've been a long-time S&W 3rd Generation pistol owner and shooter, so I'm well used to the magazine disconnect "safety" feature. I prefer a gun to not have a magazine disconnect, but that hasn't stopped me from buying 3 guns which have it.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

firing pin safeties

Now Eddie that isn't just some stupid unnessecery safety. It prevents the firing pin from moving without the trigger being pulled like if the sear broke or the gun was dropped muzzle down.

Someone did tested a 1911 on this forum I believe without the firing pin safety and it fired when dropped.

 

[sansone]

on some guns it's easy to undo the mag safety. On my BHP I polished the little spot on the mags where the interupt rubs and can feel no difference in trigger pull. So I decided to leave the mag safety in place. given the choice I would rather not have the safety

 

[EddieNFL]

Now Eddie that isn't just some stupid unnessecery safety. It prevents the firing pin from moving without the trigger being pulled like if the sear broke or the gun was dropped muzzle down.

Someone did tested a 1911 on this forum I believe without the firing pin safety and it fired when dropped.

Also been know to keep the gun from firing WHEN the trigger was pulled.

The number one safety is the operator. You can hang a dozen different mechanical safeties on a firearm and some idiot will manage to shoot himself.

If you feel you need these devices to be safe, that is perfectly fine...but I can do without them.

I don't store my ammo separately, either.

 

[1911Tuner]

I think that Jim Keenan just gave the definitive answer. Many people who aren't familiar with the clear drill for a self-loader don't understand that removing the magazine doesn't
unload the pistol.

How many of us have known/seen/heard of/read about someone dropping the magazine and immediately killing somebody because they didn't know about that chambered round?
I've even heard of it happening with experienced gun handlers in a moment of inattention.

So, in that light...we have a valid reason for having a magazine to trigger disconnect feature. I've been around a few people when handling guns that made me want to lop their fingers off. A disconnected trigger would have made me feel a lot better.

 

[KodiakBeer]

On my BHP I polished the little spot on the mags where the interupt rubs and can feel no difference in trigger pull.

Reach inside the mag well and push in the mag disconnect plunger against the spring tension. That amount of weight is added to the trigger pull. It's certainly under two pounds of weight, but it's there. If you're not fussy about triggers then leave it alone, but you will get a lighter trigger pull if you remove it.