Major rant -- may get me booted

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SteelyDan

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This is my favorite internet site, and I have learned more from it than I can ever hope to give back. I actually care about this site, and the direction it is headed, and that is why I am writing now.

Over the last few months, I have become more and more disturbed with the extremist tilt we seem to be taking, and with the fact that several of the moderators seem to be among the most extreme. For what it’s worth, I’m probably in the 95th percentile of the population in terms of promoting individual rights and limiting governmental powers, but it seems like the last 5 percent, or even 1 percent, is trying to take charge.

I’ve spent some time on internet sites where, if you suggest there may be two sides to an issue, you’re branded a traitor. I don’t go to those sites anymore, because there’s no point. Everyone is an enthusiastic critic of everything that is wrong with this country, and all their buddies applaud their criticism, but rarely can anyone suggest a practical alternative that might actually work better.

I’m starting to see this site headed in that direction, and it bothers me a lot. It’s the kind of closed-minded and ultimately self-defeating mindset that drives me nuts. For example, “I just won’t vote because they’re all against us,†or “I’ll never vote republican because in 1992 such-and-such happened,†or “if you don’t vote Libertarian you’re selling out,†or “I’d never vote for any administration that would enact the Patriot Act.†Those aren’t direct quotes, but they’re illustrative. And a bunch of that sentiment is coming from various moderators.

Here’s the problem. It’s really easy to bitch about all the things that are wrong with this country, but those who complain the most never seem able to suggest any realistic alternatives. Don’t misunderstand, I’m not exactly thrilled with everything that’s going on, but I can understand why it’s happening and I’m not able to suggest any better alternatives. We live in a complex world, and just because we don’t like something doesn’t mean it isn’t the right choice under the circumstances.

I just don’t understand this new “Blame America First†mentality that seems to be showing up here.

I’d put my “flame shield†on now, but I don’t have one. All I ask is that in the future, when you read a post bitching about what we’re doing wrong, ask yourself if the writer bothers to suggest any realistic alternatives.
 
And the Founding Fathers were also extremists. Most folks are complacent, then and now. So-called extremists can shake fence-sitters out of their slumber. Just because there are two sides to an issue doesn't mean both are right.


Oh, and you must have a poor opinion of THR to think that a moderator would pre-emptively ban you for this post.
 
Of course everyone who believes more strongly than you is a radical, everyone who believes less stronger than you is a flake.

Stay, engage, persuade.
 
SteelyDan,

I understand where you're coming from. Consider this, though: In spite of the fact that several of our moderators are of a strongly Libertarian...even anarcho-capitalist bent, they are all remarkably even handed in using thier super powers. That's something you don't find everywhere.

I think it would be a terrible waste if our moderators were somehow discouraged from sharing their views. Some offer a lot of insight.

BTW, good thread title...guaranteed to garner a ton of "views."

:D
 
Personally, I like to hear everyone's point of view here. At the least, it's going to be "pro-gun". I simply use it, digest it , or discard the information as I see fit.

I'll say this, I've learned a ton from this site as well as The Firing Line previously. I don't always agree but I do want to undertand the various points of view (which includes the exterme). I'm a heck of a lot smarter and more savvy as a result.

As long as folks civil and don't offend each other in a personal way, say what you think and believe.
 
Steelydan, the whole point about a site like THR is to allow individuals to express their views in a reasonably polite way, and to allow the rest of us to respond to those views. There are many posts on THR with which I personally disagree, but I absolutely defend the right of the posters to their own views. They would doubtless disagree vehemently with many of mine! I think that as long as we take "The High Road" in our discussions, and keep them civil, we'll do OK.
 
I don't think you're out of line, SteelyDan, for posting concerns about the nature of some discussions here. Oleg founded the site with pretty high principles in mind, and we all voluntarily came here.

That said, I also have been concerned at times with what amounts to a "herd mentality", and a fairly intolerant one at that. The group's treatment of Agricola and Malone Laveigh in particular come to mind. While a conservative viewpoint seems the most consistent with our one unifying trait--enjoyment of firearms--it certainly is not an axiom that liberals hate guns and gun rights. Most of them, maybe, but not all. :D

And I agree with you that it's the height of folly to disassociate with the Republican party over a few minor--or even major--issues. Realpolitik would dictate staying engaged and trying to convince others of your views. JMHO.

TC
TFL Survivor
 
I always find the posts that wish rape and death on gun control advocates, gleefully note the death of politicians (Wellstone), and praise murderers (Carl Drega) extremely distressing.:(
 
Anarcho-capitalists? Libertarians? (l)ibertarians? These are all fringe elements that have scant impact on reality. Complaining about them is like condemning a gentle breeze that always comes from the same direction but invariably carries with it a peculiar, but not necessarily offensive, odor.:neener:

IOW, what's the use in complaining? It's just part of the environment here and one that is not going to change.
 
Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over, and expecting a different result.

Vote Republican, get screwed, vote Republican, get screwed, vote Republican, get screwed, vote Republican, get screwed ... Notice that you keep getting screwed. Vote Republican anyway. Continuing this cycle is nuttier than a squirrel's winter stash.

No matter how extreme the alternative may look, at least it is not insane.

Think about it.

pax

We hardly find any persons of good sense, save those who agree with us. -- La Rochefoucauld
 
Sorry, Pax...

All those sane people searching for an alternative (Ross Perot) cleared the way for Slick Willy.

Letting Slick Willy in your house is a great way to get screwed...true on many levels.

Idealism v. reality. Reality dictates, at this sorry stage, that we vote for the one of the sides we think will screw us the least.

We are a 50/50 country right now. Pulling votes from the side that's a little more freedom loving is not a good idea.

Let me ask this...do you think that, even in a best case scenario, a Libertarian candidate could win in the next election?
 
First, I am an extremist.

I believe that any administration that supports the "Patriot Actâ€:banghead: while not necessarily evil :evil:, is definitely acting irresponsibly. I will not vote for them. They may believe that I am safer with them watching and regulating everything I do. But the road to tyranny is paved with good intentions.

I will not support being disarmed by my government. Where I live, the Libertarian Party is the only party to recognize the constitution. The only other choice I see involves voting for someone who wants to enslave me.:fire:

VOTING LIBERTARIAN IS AN ALTERNATIVE. I get annoyed when people pretend that it is ineffective. On-line polls are ineffective, trying to buy politicians is ineffective, because it legitimises their corruption of the Constitution, VOTING IS EFFECTIVE! Registering others to vote is Effective!

DW

Remember, You are free when you do not have to ask someone else to do something. Even slaves can get their owners permission. Are you free?
 
Libertarians are small now. Politically almost powerless. Not enough votes in any legistlative body to affect the vast majority of legislation.

However,

A) that does not mean that theywill always be small and powerless. Every movement has a start.

B) If they raise issues and get them acted upon by current political parties they can acomplish what they want without winning office. ( But it would be VERY difficult )

Bottom Line Libertartians are the ONLY national political party that is Truly pro-gun. Voting for them makes sense to me if only to let the other politicans know what we want.

The vicsous circle is sadly they are powerless because they are small, ( and in ILL purposly kept that way by unlawfull actions by both Democratic and Republican parties. ) and small because they are powerless.:confused:

Do not know the answer but continuosly voting for people who take away our rights does NOT seem reasonable to me.:cuss:

As always I may be wrong.

NukemJim
 
Board moderation and admin is inevitably a ''no win'' situation (I know this, 1st hand) .... and so the best that will usually be managed is to please ''most of the people, most of the time''.

Overall I have been impressed with moderation here ...... that which I have seen ..... and there have to be some rules to maintain a sense of order. Politics tho will for ever be one of the hottest potatoes and will never fail to ''stir the pot''.:p
 
SD,

I think it's the nature of the internet for passionate persons to express themselves - on some issues - like a fervant zealot.

I also think that most people wouldn't speak like that face to face...it's just that the sender and addresser are both anonymous and trying to argue/discuss/rebuke/kiss - ok no kissing here...wrong board ;) joke - with brief diatribes w/o voice inflection or body language...it's tuff.

I haven't seen the rape and kill posts...don't think I'd like them either....I kind of pick and choose what to read and reply to...if I don't like it or think it's moronic I just move on. Why waste time?

I'm usually reading gun posts...now I'm lusting for a jetfire...don't know how many times I've read the archives. My B-day is this month and I've circled the add in the buyers guide and handed it to my wife...but I digress...usually I digress on Sharon Stone...see how much the silly little jetfire tantalizes me...

By the way...Pax, Mike Irwin, Frenchy and I along with some others just finished (well I'm done :) ) conversation about S&W...we don't agree...but that's ok...it was still enlightening for me. I mean someone named latin for Peace can't be all that bad.

Anyways..chin up, Don't get discouraged,

VR.
LW
 
No a Libertarian will not win the presidency next time. But the presidency is not what we need. Stack the Legislature! I think we stand a chance of making people notice there. I also think that if we started winning small elections more peple would feel that their vote wouldn't be wastedand vote Libertarian.
 
I also have to giove moderators credit because this post critisizing them (unjustly) is still here. Now that is freedom of speech. And this is even somebody elses private property.
 
but only on some issues. (And not very firm about it even on those.)

Agreed, Tam. But they beat the heck out of the only viable alternative. As I've admitted before, I'm a single issue voter.

I don't think anyone here would bet 100 bucks against a million that a Lib candidate could win in 2004...or even 2008.

Come up with a freedom loving candidate that has a snowball's chance in hell of winning a Presidential election and I'll vote for 'em.

Until then, a vote for a fringe candidate amounts to a helping hand for the Dems.
 
Is this thread going to be hijacked into yet another "conversation" consisting of, "The Libertarian Party is really effective, no seriously, QUIT LAUGHING, we'll get there someday, WHEN you say?!? Who cares when you pathetic freedom hater, we're returning to this country's roots here--where's our prez candidate's federal matching funds and invite to the debates?"

If so, please do. I really enjoy the protestations of relevancy.
 
Boats,

Ah. Validity based on popularity contest.

"My team took my guns away. :(
But they kicked butt at the polls! :)

Yayyyyy team!"

I think pom-poms in party colors are so cute. ;)
 
People say that it is "unrealistic" to think that Libertarian candidates will ever be elected, as if the two-party system is a metaphysically given. It is not. It is man made. It can be changed by voters who vote their principles.
 
I can only speak for me, but...

...this "The GOP is on your side, you should stick with them and change them from within" is simply untrue. The Right Sociali... er, GOP is not on my side; it may lean closer to me on one or two issues than the other major party, but it is diametrically opposed to me on so many others, that I'd be as well off trying to "change from within" over with the Left Sociali... er, Democrats.

Why should I vote for someone with whom I staunchly disagree on almost every major issue?
 
Tamara just described the reason I vote Libertarian. I'm just as far away from the Republicans on most issues as I am from the Democrats. Were I going to vote for one of the two largest parties, I might as well just flip a coin and hope for whichever candidate I help elect not to further violate and restrict my rights. I'm done with doing that. I'm going to vote for someone who actually does represent my views, and in the vast majority of cases, thats the Libertarians. I'm not going to help elect people I staunchly disagree with anymore, simply because they MIGHT be the "lesser of two evils". Remember, the lesser of two evils is still evil.
 
Calling me an extremist won't get you booted, it'll get you a 'Thank you'

Heh.
SteelyDan, methinks you're being a tad bit mellow dramatic. I'm certainly not going to ban you for your post, and neither will any of the other mods. For what it's worth, lemme do a point-by-point.
For what it’s worth, I’m probably in the 95th percentile of the population in terms of promoting individual rights and limiting governmental powers, but it seems like the last 5 percent, or even 1 percent, is trying to take charge.
A quick edjumacation regarding becoming a mod. You don't find the job, the job finds you. Said another way, I didn't ask to be a mod, I was invited. That hardly qualifies as trying to run the digital equivalent of an online forum coup.
I’ve spent some time on internet sites where, if you suggest there may be two sides to an issue, you’re branded a traitor. I don’t go to those sites anymore, because there’s no point.
To be completely honest, I stopped believing that there were only two sides to any given issue long ago. Usually there's more than that, much more, and I think that debating the various merits of an issue are worthy, including the points of view that I may vehemently disagree with.
Everyone is an enthusiastic critic of everything that is wrong with this country, and all their buddies applaud their criticism, but rarely can anyone suggest a practical alternative that might actually work better.
I disagree, many times critics of the current system are critical of it because they have sat down and figured out a better way of doing things. Of course "better" usually means "different," which to most people equates to being "bad." To truly grasp a lot of libertarian/free market philosophy takes a bit of reading and logical thought. Because of this, a lot of people are unwilling to swallow the red pill, so to speak.
For example, “I just won’t vote because they’re all against us,†or “I’ll never vote republican because in 1992 such-and-such happened,†or “if you don’t vote Libertarian you’re selling out,†or “I’d never vote for any administration that would enact the Patriot Act.†Those aren’t direct quotes, but they’re illustrative. And a bunch of that sentiment is coming from various moderators.
heh. Dunno if you've noticed, but I've been a pretty loud advocate of working within the system to kill the AW ban. Having said that, I bear no ill will to those who are so disenfranchised that they abstain from voting. As for not voting Republican, well lemme tell you a little story: About 3 years ago I was in total lockstep agreement with the Repubs. I was a total Dittohead/G. Gordon Liddy/George Bush kinda guy. And then I started paying attention to the Republicans and what they were doing. And I noticed that they really weren't doing what they claimed they were doing. Government spending went up under the party with an R just about as much as under the party with the D. Gun control seemed to be instituted about as much by the R's as the D's. And as I sat and thought about it, I realized that it wasn't that one party was for freedom and the other for oppression. I realized that it was more about which demographic the two major parties wanted to oppress. I guess that I must have decided early on that I had a certain threshold, and once that was passed I saw no reason to support the Republicans any more. Where's your threshold? At what point is 'the lesser evil' no longer worth supporting because they are still evil?
I just don’t understand this new “Blame America First†mentality that seems to be showing up here.
As long as we're sloganizing, I just don't understand this "My country, right or wrong" mentality that seems to be showing up everywhere.
All I ask is that in the future, when you read a post bitching about what we’re doing wrong, ask yourself if the writer bothers to suggest any realistic alternatives.
That's fair enough, so long as you're willing to be open-minded enough to consider the alternatives suggested instead of dismissing them out of hand. No more of the "That won't work because we've never done it that way before and it's different, so it's bound to fail!" mentality.
 
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