Man shoots motorcyclist in "self defense"

[DoubleTapDrew]

As far as him running into their car------It sounds more like the other way around, daddy's little girl calls and says "he hit our car and he's following us now!".....was more likely 2 teenage girls that clipped HIS bike due to bad driving, and had to make up an excuse to why the motorcycle man was going to follow them home and probably threaten to sue for a hit-and-run.

That's what came to my mind too, but like has been said, not enough info and only one side of the story since the guy on the bike is dead.
Anybody that rides has had a lot of close calls, you can't chase them all down. I've had friends who (when they were teens) acted stupid and made obscene gestures and done stupid toying with other people on the road. Two of them were followed until they stopped and warned to be careful doing that kind of crap, some people aren't forgiving.
Possible scenario playing "devils advocate": they hit the guy or were very rude/negligent and he was following them to do the same thing, going to either get insurance info or ask them to have more consideration, they whip in their driveway, he sees a man out there, goes back and realizes he has a gun, thinks twice about stopping.
Who knows. Sounds like regardless of the reason he followed, deadly force wasn't justified. Ability: possibly, Opportunity: no (shot in back), Intent: unknown

 

[chilie]

there are is a lot of fault to be laid at whomever's feet you decide. The facts are a young man is dead over senseless violence. Another incident to remind all of us to let things go and be the bigger person. Walk away and de escalate. It'll save you more then it'll gain you.

 

[Sans Authoritas]

The cagers don't even care about other cagers. I don't think they have a personal vendetta against motorcyclists, I think they don't have enough sense and respect for any human life to even glance at their mirror, let alone hazard a check over their shoulder for the blind spot. I think a lot of it has to do with selfishness: they want to be in the next lane, so they go, and too bad for anyone who is already there. (Who, ideally, should only be there for as long as it takes to quickly pass.)

Don't you notice that even when you're in a car, someone will come up as close as they can behind you before passing? I think that when you're on a motorcycle, it simply becomes all the more obvious how much of a risk they are.

I'm sure we've all seen too many near collisions because of a simple failure to check mirrors and blind spot, and seen too many actual collisions because arrogant, self-centered people consider the human beings in other vehicles to be their own personal slalom course.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

one thing that i noticed was the guy who shot called 911 and claimed self defense. i wondered if he stepped out the guy drove at him and he opened up. would be good if there was a witness not related.

 

[Aran]

How do you shoot a guy coming at you in the back?

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

step to the side and shoot as he goes by or after he passes. i'm not sure if i took a couple shots that missed as you came at me that i'd stop shooting when you passed. i might take the shot like the shot at the clay pigeon right at the end where it hangs there the easy shot

just ahypothesis nomoreproof it went that way than the other..guy lawyers up uses that story and the fact he was in front of his house which lends credence to at least one part of his kids story.the part about them being followed home

 

[Sans Authoritas]

cassandrasdaddy wrote:

step to the side and shoot as he goes by or after he passes. i'm not sure if i took a couple shots that missed as you came at me that i'd stop shooting when you passed. i might take the shot like the shot at the clay pigeon right at the end where it hangs there the easy shot

Whether or not this is the case, the cyclist did not pose an active threat if he was already past, and was unarmed except with a motorcycle that only poses a threat while actually in the process of coming toward you. At that point, it sounded as though they might have had the ability to retreat. They could have gone back in the house, walking backward to cover him, and then, if the aggressor charged again, or got off his bike and came onto their property with obvious intent to harm them, it might have been justified to shoot in self-defense.

This sounds like a case where all parties did some very stupid things.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[hankdatank1362]

Brake check me or make some other deliberate @$$hole manuever that endangers me when I'm riding, and I'll crater your door panel as I fly by.

If a brake check actually endangers you, then you're riding too close. Just like they taught you in driver's ed... you need to be far back enough where if the car in front of you suddenly stopped, for any reason, you could stop in time without a collision. Just like the old rule about overdriving your headlights...

But I do understand getting mad about other driver's carelessness. I remember when I had just first started driving, I almost clipped a guy on a Shadow. Completely my fault. I still remember the cursing out he gave me... and I deserved it.

However, if he actually threatened me, or "cratered my door panel" or "punched off my mirror", I would have demonstrated a simple law of physics.

Ford Explorer w/ brushguard > violent assailant on motorcycle

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Oh lord guys. Correct your anal cranial inversions. You think punching mirrors is a good way to difuse a confrontation? Hell no. That's the kind of juvenile crap that leads to people getting killed. You have to be smarter than that. If you think that screwing with a guys car is the right thing to do, you seriously need to reconsider carrying a firearm.


Now back to the topic. There are two good things to learn here:
1) Following someone to their house is a good way to end up dead
2) Shooting a guy in the back is a good way to end up in jail.

 

[Sans Authoritas]

Hankdatank1362 wrote:

However, if he actually threatened me, or "cratered my door panel" or "punched off my mirror", I would have demonstrated a simple law of physics.

Ford Explorer w/ brushguard > violent assailant on motorcycle

That is a disgusting and unjustified escalation of conflict, Hank. Another human being's life is worth a broken mirror or dented truck?

And Click, you're right on target.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[fletcher]

Not enough info in the story to give an informed opinion, but going off only what was given, it looks like the shooter was in the wrong.

If you deliberately attempt to injure a motorcyclist, you most certainly deserve a scar on your vehicle's sheet metal that reminds you to respect our place on the road.

If you're deliberately driving in a manner that could damage the vehicle ahead of you or its occupants, you deserve the same. This would not even be an issue if some of you learn how to drive/ride. If you're close enough on the vehicle in front of you that you're making the driver uneasy, that driver cannot pay attention to what's ahead, and YOU are making the road unsafe.

If a brake check actually endangers you, then you're riding too close. Just like they taught you in driver's ed... you need to be far back enough where if the car in front of you suddenly stopped, for any reason, you could stop in time without a collision. Just like the old rule about overdriving your headlights...

End of story.

I'm sure we've all seen too many near collisions because of a simple failure to check mirrors and blind spot, and seen too many actual collisions because arrogant, self-centered people consider the human beings in other vehicles to be their own personal slalom course.

+100

 

[akodo]

mirror punching etc.

Isn't that just escelating the situation? Seems to me a biker pulls out a tool to dent the door of a car that cut him off, now the driver can claim 'fear for life' and start shooting.

As far as what happened here, yes we are missing too many details BUT

a 19 and a 17 females of the species and a 21 year old male of the species. Two teens do something dumb and cut off a cyclist, highly likely. A testosterone ladened male "badboy" makes excessive unwanted advances "badboy style" also highly likely.

when you were 10 you showed the girls you liked them by scaring them with a frog, some 21 year olds still try and show girls that catch their eyes by zooming up, yelling hey baby, cut in front for attention. Of course, sometimes the female of the species encourage it a bit in what they view as harmless flirtation, but the male takes as a show of genuine intrest and progress. He does more 'badboy' stuff thinking he is making progress, and they realize that their 'harmless flirt' wasn't so harmless, and now they freak out.

 

[BigBadJohn]

If you deliberately attempt to injure a motorcyclist

KEY WORD--deliberately
Not talking about accidental close calls , that happens all the time.

 

[hankdatank1362]

That is a disgusting and unjustified escalation of conflict, Hank. Another human being's life is worth a broken mirror or dented truck?

Is being cut off in traffic worth assault with a deadly weapon (ball peen hammer) and big time in club fed?

You can't justify beating on someone's car because they cut you off. But I'll bet I could justify self defense if someone was beating on my car with a hammer.

 

[BigO01]

On one hand we have a motorcyclist who God knows is a member of a group that acts like can do anything they please on the road at high speeds in places where high speed is dangerous .

On the other we have two teenage girls with a cell phone and we all know they've always obeyed the rules of safety on the road like NOT talking on the phone while driving so you can pay attention to what you're doing behind the wheel so you never hit someone , swerve into their lane , and or cut them off and kill them on a highway .

Add into it an over protective Father of his "little angles" with his gun and look what ya get .

Girls and or dad sure as heck should have called the cops and dad should have kept his pistol concealed until and only if it was needed to protect a life from a physical attack not just verbal argument over which one is the bigger idiot on the road .

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

and i'll bet you could get a lawyer to present that you were in fear for your life after the first time he tried to run you down and thought he was slowing for a second try when you did what anyone would do in that situation.i'd like to know if it was a dead end so the biker had to turn around to come by again or not. that could affect the outcome/perception

 

[Crunker1337]

I don't really think there's enough to go on right now to make any sort of statement. I'm only sad that the motorcyclist was killed at this point, whether or not it was self-defense I do not know.

 

[ASM826]

So, there you stand, with your CCW handy, at the end of your driveway, you've never been arrested, most serious trouble you've ever had was a speeding ticket. You daughters have called, hysterical, they're being followed by an unknown male on a motorcycle. They pull up, get out, and run for the house. Motorcycle guy is angry, hollering threats, making high speed passes. Promising death, rape, and mayhem. Promising to come back with his buddies and burn you out, get those girls what they deserve. You tell him to take off, he speed up the street, then turns and makes a high speed run at you. By this time, your adrenalin is through the roof. You sidestep. He roars past, hits the brakes to turn again. You take the shot.
How long are you supposed to wait? Until he hits you? Until he comes back at 3 AM and makes good on his threats?
So, you shoot, and you say what we all have been told to say, "I fired in self-defense, " and you clam up. If some DA decides it isn't justified, you may well go to jail, lose everything you own, and have your life ruined.
We weren't there, and his side hasn't been told yet. Let's agree to follow this, and see what the charges are when they get to court, and see how the jury decides, get some more info and revisit this discussion.
I don't know that it happened this way, but it is just as possible as any of the scenarios I have read here.
As far as "legal owners with itchy fingers ruining it for the rest of us", I disagree strongly. The gun banners intend to take our firearms, whether we ever use them or not. Use yours in a completely justified situation, and they will still put your attacker's death on the "gun deaths" for the year. The gun banners don't need an excuse, they intend to take them all.

 

[The_Shootist]

Grin

"If you deliberately attempt to injure a motorcyclist, you most certainly deserve a scar on your vehicle's sheet metal that reminds you to respect our place on the road."

You're chancing a .38 calibre vasectomy for your trouble if ya punch out somebody's mirror if its in Texas, and after sundown.

 

[Sans Authoritas]

Sans Authoritas wrote:

That is a disgusting and unjustified escalation of conflict, Hank. Another human being's life is worth a broken mirror or dented truck?

Hankdatank wrote:

Is being cut off in traffic worth assault with a deadly weapon (ball peen hammer) and big time in club fed?

No, it's not justifiable to escalate a conflict in such a manner, especially when the intent is not to defuse the situation (as is the case in self-defense) but juvenile revenge.

Nor is childishly hitting someone's door or mirror with a hammer an actual "assault with a deadly weapon." I could take a 2x4 to a mailbox, and the mailbox would not have suffered an assault, but vandalism. Forget what the asinine laws say: they also say a second-grade boy sneaking a kiss from a girl at school is "sexual harrassment," or even "assault."

Hankdatank wrote:

You can't justify beating on someone's car because they cut you off. But I'll bet I could justify self defense if someone was beating on my car with a hammer.

If someone was on a motorcycle and repeatedly hitting your car with a hammer while you are dutifully trying to retreat because he poses no active threat to your life, he's got some pretty amazing skill, first of all. Second, if he actually poses a threat, that is a whole different story, and not at all what we were talking about. In context of what we were talking about, (the juvenile revenge of damaging another person's property, not smashing his head in or even threatening to do this) ramming someone in a gross and obvious escalation in violence is NOT justified, no matter how a jury or judge may see it.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[ckay]

I'm really looking forward to seeing how this case plays out. Very unfortunate a life was lost. We'll see if it was justified which I strongly do not feel it will be. Who knows...his bike may have had handlebar and exhaust shrouds that posed a threat.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Daddy seeing himself coming to the rescue of his daughter lost his head and ran out to meet the guy following his daughter home. At this point everything is fine. Motorcycle guy is following person for whatever reason, technicaly not breaking any law yet, dad is determined to see his daughter comes to no harm, presumably doing nothing illegal yet.
Both men at this point likely legal.

I believe you're wrong on that. Under many state's laws, a male following one or more females home would be considered stalking, and is very much illegal.

 

[inherentical]

Nor is childishly hitting someone's door or mirror with a hammer an actual "assault with a deadly weapon."

Not if my car is in the driveway. If I'm driving it down the interstate, that's another matter.

 

[hankdatank1362]

Nor is childishly hitting someone's door or mirror with a hammer an actual "assault with a deadly weapon."

I assume that the assailant was aiming for my head and just happened to miss. He won't get a second chance.

I could take a 2x4 to a mailbox, and the mailbox would not have suffered an assault, but vandalism.

There's no one occupying the mailbox.

Forget what the asinine laws say

Sorry... if I'm threatened, and it's legal, I'm gonna act in self defense.

If someone was on a motorcycle and repeatedly hitting your car with a hammer while you are dutifully trying to retreat because he poses no active threat to your life, he's got some pretty amazing skill, first of all.

Once again, he won't hit my car more than once.

Second, at least where I live, there is no duty to retreat. I have a right to be on the road and so does he.

Third, if he is beating my car, which I, and possibly my family are occupying, with a hammer, he most certainly is an active threat to my life and will be dispatched as such.

ramming someone in a gross and obvious escalation in violence is NOT justified, no matter how a jury or judge may see it.

Maybe not in your sense of morality, but that's neither here nor there. All that really matters is HOW A JUDGE OR JURY MAY SEE IT.


I know that this is off the topic, and I apologize in advance.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

If you are riding along in your lane and a car decides to merge right into you, sometimes putting your boot in their door is the only way to get their attention fast enough that they are about to kill you. The vast majority of drivers don't look for cycles when they change lanes, they expect to see something as big as a car and if one isn't there, they just shoot right on in, then if you get (justifiably IMO) mad, they act like you are just an a-hole "biker" that should have been riding a 3000lb bike that they could see, or must be some squid splitting lanes at twice the speed limit.