Rangel Wants Mandatory Military Service

[Monkeyleg]

IIRC correctly, the original topic was Rangel's call for reinstitution of the draft.

Arguments about the merits of mandatory/obligatory service aside, take a look at why Charlie Rangel wants this to be an issue.

The Honorable Charles Rangel wants to continue to churn the "race pot" as long as possible. Trent Lott gave him the opening, and Rangel and other Dem's are going to harp on this for two years. Minority turnout in the next election is the Dem's hole card.

Will the issue resonate with soccer moms who don't want to see their sons go to war? Oh yeah. Rangel is counting on that. He's also counting on the fact that he can portray voluntary military service as the only legitimate outlet for minorities to escape the ghettos.

If and when there's an Iraqi war, Rangel will continue to harp about the disproportionate number of minorities in the service. Come the 2004 elections, he's counting on a big minority turnout, using the same race-dividing tactics we saw in the late 60's.

That's what this is about.

 

[waterdog]

Everyone should go through basic military training. (Would create firearm enthusiasts).

It would cut down on mobilization time in the event of a REAL war, not the BS Bush wants with Iraq

Then the person could choose between reserve duty military or civil service.

waterdog

 

[ArmsAkimber]

waterdog,

When you say "everyone should go through basic military training," do you really mean everyone should be forced to go through military training? What if they refuse? Prison? Public whipping? Bullet to the head?

Then the person could choose between reserve duty military or civil service.

There's always another choice, it's a question of whether the choice is to live your own life as you see fit, or the "choice" of prison, whipping, or a bullet to the head.

Call it what it is: conscription is slavery. I have the greatest respect for those who volunteer for military service. I have no respect for a government that would force anyone into such service.

Russian peasants were given the choice of running toward the Germans and being mowed down, or running away and being mowed down by their "own" government. To hell with that. If I were put in that position, I'd run toward my own government, I'd just try to get into spitting range before dieing.

 

[Sean Smith]

Funny, my time in the military and study of history convinced me that going to the "peacetime" draft would be insane. The last thing we need to do is degrade the human quality of the armed forces by going with conscripts instead of volunteers.

I find the bashing of the volunteer armed forces kind of interesting. The leftist media find a couple of whiney slugs out of untold hundreds of thousands of people in the armed forces, and you (rah-rah-U.S.A. types?) are duped into thinking everyone is a cartoon Gen-X slacker volunteering for an easy ride to college money. Are y'all really that dumb?



They volunteered. Everyone else sat on their ass. Nothing else need be said.

http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/tommy.html

 

[CyberGOP]

El Jefe , and all the other draft supporters , what your argument boils down to is the end justifies the means . This is the creed of the majority of tyrannical regimes in history . You expect people to give up their rights for the " common good " , just like the german nazis or the soviet communist . According to you the state is god , if that is what you believe fine , I however believe that the role of the state is that of a servant , not a deity .

 

[El Jefe]

I gave up 23 years of my life Missing birthdays, Christmas's easter The BIRTH OF MY FIRST BORN All so that I could do my Part for GOD Almighty Lord in heaven AND My Country (Cyber where do you get off anyway?) How many years did you do in the service? First all I said was that it wouldn't hurt to teach these kids morals and ethics such as we teach them daily in the service And I have seen 100's if not thousands, been in charge of whole divisions of young men and women and yes they have a whats in it for me attitude. I know this first hand been there and done that. But with time and training they become part of a team, part of the finest fighting force in the world. The freedom you enjoy would not be yours to trifle about if it were not for the men and women in the US Armed forces Conscripted and volunteer alike, Many men died so you can have the freedom you now enjoy and did very little to earn save be born by American Parents. Bottom line is that you are afraid that it may have to be you or someone you know and your not sure you would have what it takes to measure up when the time came , IF that is the case then I fell sorry for you but you can rest safely at night because their are others that are willing to shed thier blood to ensure your blanket of freedom stays intact. I don't like Rangle or His motives for doing what he is doing but a 2 year hitch would do the majority of young men a lot of good and that is my bottom line!

 

[Derek Zeanah]

Bottom line is that you are afraid that it may have to be you or someone you know and your not sure you would have what it takes to measure up when the time came , IF that is the case then I fell sorry for you but you can rest safely at night because their are others that are willing to shed thier blood to ensure your blanket of freedom stays intact. I don't like Rangle or His motives for doing what he is doing but a 2 year hitch would do the majority of young men a lot of good and that is my bottom line!

Looks like you might be reading too much in to the comments here.

I did 2 years as airborne infantry (11C1P) 1991-1994 -- had 2 shots at OCS and another at green-to-gold but turned them down as I wasn't big on the way things were changing under Clinton's command. Volunteered for Bosnia during our 6-month train-up, but we didn't move until after I ETS'd.

Some of us that oppose the draft do so on moral grounds, rather than "oh my gosh I might have to fight!!!" grounds. Some of us truly feel it's wrong to point a gun at another, dress him up like a soldier, and drop him on his ass in a combat zone. The slave versus citizen sounds like a lot of rhetoric but there's a valid point there: do you own yourself, or does your government? If it's the latter, than all that stuff we've been believing as a country for the last few hundred years doesn't matter any more.

 

[Seeker]

I gave up 23 years of my life Missing birthdays, Christmas's easter The BIRTH OF MY FIRST BORN All so that I could do my Part for GOD Almighty Lord in heaven AND My Country (Cyber where do you get off anyway?)

It was your choice to do this. If it wasn't your choice then you shouldn't have had to do it. The point here is that it was a Choice! Conscription is not choice.

In a free country people are Free to choose how they want to live.

 

[jmbg29]

I'll second Sean Smith's post and add:

9 out of 10 Torys prefer a good professional Hessian army...

I love the suggestion that those of us that chose to serve our country voluntarily are considered to be foreign mercenaries by those of you who would obviously never serve our country no matter what the circumstance. Declarations to the contrary notwithstanding.

Trust me, the lack of your presence was celebrated rather than missed.

Getting rid of the draft is one of the best things that ever happened to our military for just that reason.

 

[El Jefe]

I guess it is obvious that I take my time in service to this great country personally. I also have my opinions on what mandatory service would do and you have yours. In this instance we will have to agree to disagree before this whole topic degrades into something that I don't allow on our board so I won't do it on this one. Some of the finest people I met on the net were on TFL and have since moved here. So we will just leave it at that We agree to Disagree.

 

[Pendragon]

Bottom line is that you are afraid that it may have to be you or someone you know and your not sure you would have what it takes to measure up when the time came , IF that is the case then I fell sorry for you but you can rest safely at night because their are others that are willing to shed thier blood to ensure your blanket of freedom stays intact.

Your contrition in your next post notwithstanding El Jefe, this is very offensive to me and I presume most patriotic Americans.

Certainly the Armed Forces are full of brave men who are willing to die for their country. But surely you can see that a person can be opposed to the draft and yet also be pro military and willing to serve and even die for their country?

I think young people should give the military serious consideration, but I do not think they should be forced into it and more importantly, I think it is tyrannical and immoral to force people to serve.

I think church and marriage and parenthood and higher education are all great for people too - but forcing someone to do something is one of the best ways to make them hate it and resent it and do a poor job at it.

 

[El Jefe]

Well Pendragon that was not the intent , If I have offended then I will apologize to you and other patriotic Americans. That said you would be surprised at how many people I have run into with the "Not in my backyard" syndrome They want more prisons and stiffer penalties but don't you dare build one close to my house, They want want all that America has to offer yet they oppose their Children wanting to join. They are all to quick to want us to run over and kick someone's butt , but not if it means sending one of their own. So forgive my impertinence if I offended it came from first hand experience..........

 

[Griff]

If that politician's aim was to divide and conquer, much less misdirect, he's well on his way. People will always feel justified in their own views, especially one with so much emotional baggage as this, and both sides are fully entitled to their choices. For now.
What happens when the professional soldiers get used up? Will robots fight for us? Would you debate with the executive orders crowd, or do your duty to protect our country's freedoms? Are you a citizen by birthright, or do you earn it? Are civilians selfish whiners, or are military-types mindless fodder?
Compromise time: If you can't/won't do armed service, do hard-core community service. Either way, you're helping build/preserve something bigger than yourself, regardless of your motivation.

 

[Joe Demko]

Let me see if I have it all down now:

1. Freedom isn't free. It has to be paid for with slavery.

2. Kids today are weak, cowardly slackers, so the Nanny State (tm) must conscript them and whip them into shape.

3. I enjoyed my time in the service, so everybody should be forced into the military so they could enjoy it to.

4. I didn't enjoy my time in the service, so everybody should be forced into the military so I can feel revenged on them for enjoying their civilian lives.

5. A volunteer (mercenary) army is bad. A conscript (slave) army is good.

6. Blah blah blah Heinlein blah blah blah.

Yep, them's some mighty convincing arguments.

ps I already did my time in green, as a volunteer, many years ago. Save yourselves the exertion of climbing all the wayup on that high horse to lecture me about what I "owe." Wrap it up in the flag, with mom, hot dogs, apple pie, and chevrolet, have Norman Rockwell paint it, and conscription will still be slavery.

 

[longeyes]

"Hell, no, we won't pay!"

I hope you guys who believe in "hell no, we won't go!" feel the same way about taxation. Now that might really change some things.

 

[CyberGOP]

El Jefe , I didn't mean you or the military any disrespect by my arguments , I appreciate your service and believe that the troops deserve more respect . However , I stand by my argument that the draft is unconstitutional , just check the 18th Ammendment .

Longeyes , involuntary servitude is prohibited by the constitution , taxation is not , although I do believe we are getting our pockets picked .

 

[JPM70535]

The way I interpret Rangels proposal is that he wants Compulsary military service to insure that the Soldiers who go to war and fight and die for this country to reflect a cross section of the population. In his mind it is the lower socio-economic youngsters who enlist most often and do the brunt of the fighting and make the ultimate sacrifice. Whether he is right or wrong is not the issue.

This country did away with the mandatory draft long ago and the quality of the Armed forces has not suffered. Some of the best and brightest of our college graduates enter Military service and a percentage decide to remain in service thus insuring a well educated core of leaders from other than the lower strata of society. These leaders fight and die with the same dedication to duty as any other soldier.

I personally see no need for any mandatory conscription, but if it were instituted, most of the draft age youngsters would do as they always have, answer the call when asked by their country. A term of military service would do a world of good for some young men.

 

[El Jefe]

No offense taken........ I have a pretty thick skin

And Rangle doesn't have a Clue These kids come from all walks of life mostly Middle income families and Lower income families but we get a good cross section

 

[longeyes]

If taxation doesn't qualify as involunary servitude, it will do fine while we're waiting for the real thing.

 

[pax]

Conscription is slavery, and the end does not justify the means.

On a pragmatic level:

Rangel, who voted against a joint resolution authorizing military action against Iraq in October, believes mandatory enlistment for men ages 18-26 would serve as a deterrent to war.

I think it's the opposite. If we have a huge army sitting around on their butts, someone in gov't is going to go looking for something for them to do. They'll probably end up getting sent overseas to fight in a wildly unpopular war (errrrrr, "police action") in some third-world hellhole, and come home to have ordinary civilians thank them by hurling spitwads and human feces at them as they step off the plane.

On the other hand, if the army is composed only of people who volunteer to fight, the only way America can get involved in a war is if enough people believe in it to volunteer to lay their own necks on the line.

A conscript army is an invitation to war. A volunteer army is an incentive for peace.

pax

The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves. – Dresden James

 

[Shootin' Buddy]

El Jefe wrote:

So we will just leave it at that We agree to Disagree

That is a very agreeable-sounding sentiment, but not usually possible. Agreeing to disagree can really only occur when both parties are allowed to practice their personal beliefs.

If you forbid one party from practicing his personal belief, then you are not agreeing to disagree. You are simply enforcing your position without argument -- which is not the same thing at all.

In this particular situation, forcing young men and women into military service when they do not want to volunteer is not allowing them to practice their personal belief.

You cannot, therefore, agree to disagree without retracting your own position, which compels those who disagree with you to do it your way anyway.

 

[Zak Smith]

Shootin' Buddy,

Excellent post! And your first, to boot. Welcome.

"Agreeing to disagree" works great for people who have philosophies that do not involve the initiation of force. It doesn't work so well when one party wants to force others to comply to his view.

-z

 

[PATH]

If we need the bodies the draft will be put in place as quickly as you please. I think at present a well trained, highly motivated military is better than an unwieldy group of folks who want to be doing something else.

Unless a war gets out of hand or becomes global I think a draft coming back is an unlikely prospect. The military requires a high school diploma and that eliminates people. The military does not take felons or drug abusers and that eliminates more people.

I think you'll find tha a lot of urban poor or rural poor do not have the requisite skills to enter military service. That was not always the case. Hell, at one time you often had a choice between jail and the Army. You won't see that happening.

I believe we have a treaty with Canada that now will return you to American authorities. I don't know about Mexico.

In the end I think a draft is only neccessary when the numbers required for service exceeds the supply.

 

[duncan]

Let's get some facts straight here.

Minorities are not banking on the "military" to get them out of the ghetto.

College or the NBA yes.

I've been a civilian instructor at many U.S. military bases such as Bangor submarine base, Fort Lewis, and McChord Air Force base just to name a few in WA not including a dozen in CA and in Ohio, and the vast majority of U.S. serviceman are not black men but men hailing from many improverished areas in the South, Midwest and the Plain States. Some blacks, latino's, asians and the like in the enlisted ranks. But lots of white men and women fro Kentucky.

Maybe 10 percent of the enlisted and officers' ranks are minorities.

That's what my own eyes tell me over the years.

So let's focus on the Rangel's idea on the draft.

Didn't anyone see some of his discussions with Hannity and Coumbs on FoxNews. They appear to like his idea because that is what he is proposing to consider. A diplomatic or international option before military option.

But it is troubling to get the garbage report they sent us missing several key weapons. I do agree that the UN inspectors need more authoriy and they should use trained UN troops to assist in the inspections so the Iraq's are not just moving weapons behind closed doors when the inspectors come or go.

Ever seen "Thirteen Days"?