Marines go to Semi-auto sniper rifle

[Double Naught Spy]

The .50 BMG 'sniper' rifles are (supposed to be) only used as anti-materiel weapons.

According to whom? And please don't tell me it is by some accord, convention, or treaty because the .50 bmg round is considered cruel and inhumane and so isn't to be used on people. See http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=105530&highlight=.50+bmg+illegal+military

Even if the .50s are only supposed to be used for materials, does that mean it isn't sniping when done by snipers?

 

[grizz]

Sweet. I own the DPMS version (w/ quad rail forearm) and have long felt that the target grade AR-10 platform offers some serious long range firepower. Heavy, yes, but very effective against multiple targets, or for quick follow up shots.

 

[mljdeckard]

Myth or not, it's a myth that JAG still enforces.

 

[Waitone]

Kerry, Kennedy, Schumer, and Feinstein will have a collective kitten.

Evil, insanely lethal sniper rifles are one thing. But then make them SEMI-AUTO.

Oh, the humanity!

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Myth or not, it's a myth that JAG still enforces.

Could you point me towards the order from JAG explaining this or give me a case where JAG has prosecuted someone for using a .50BMG as an anti-personnel weapon?

 

[KC&97TA]

JAG doesn't do much with it, but E-Tool digging and standing at the POA getting your butt chewed for hours does, it's called "useing a weapon system in a manner for which it was not designed".

It's not a matter of wasteing people with a .50 round, it's a matter of cost, yeah your tax money... people still get taken out with .50 rounds, they just don't want a .50 being used were a 7.62 is still in range. So if Sniper 'A' is smokeing bad guys at 1000M with his M40 and there's more bad guys out at 2000M about to launch a rocket, well out of his range and they need to be taken care of, he can call over to Sniper 'B' to bring over the M82. I've heard it called in for permission several times, with permission granted, depends on the situation.

It comes down to better judgement; if you have equal oportunity to kill a man at 70 meters with one of 2 weapons, a loaded M16 or an unloaded M79 and you choose the M79 and take the time to load it with a smoke grenade and shoot the bad guy in the chest, you're wrong... now if the brown stinky stuff is hitting the fan and you choose the M79 that's already loaded, you're OK.

The Commands don't want CNN walking up on a group of men, sitting around smokeing cigarettes, smokeing bad individuals at 1/2 mile away, sucking down warm bottled water and MRE's, talking about how rough it is to get more ammo, giggleing and laughing ... while CNN video tapes the whole event, (if you've ever seen a group of Marines you know what I mean) or Guys going from house to house with the M79 in hand cause thier buddy just killed a guy with a Smoke Grenade from his M79 and he wants to do the same.

 

[mljdeckard]

In my service both with the Third Infantry Division and the 19th Special Forces Group, we were briefed and monitored by the respective JAG offices regarding the appropriate use of force and the ethics of combat. With the 3rd ID, I was with an armor unit, and it is always in everyone's mind, "What happens if you smoke a person with the main gun?" Unit commanders will ofetn consult JAG to make sure their plans and tactics are in accordance with the Geneva Convention and The Hague Accords. (Which we never signed.)

Note I put 'supposed to be' in parentheses. I am not under illusions about the actual use of these weapons. (They can't prosecute you for inappropriate use of force if they can't recover enough of a body to prove it.)

 

[RangerHAAF]

Only in America can the professional defense establishment be concerned and worried about the ethical and appropriate use of force against our enemies, when our enemies do not exhibit a mutual concern regarding the laws of war.

One day we're going to be backed so far into a corner about fighting PC battles that it's going to be too late.

 

[PvtPyle]

Ah, another topic about my least favorite company on the planet (it is actually a three way tie between them, H&K and Colt).

Myth or not, it's a myth that JAG still enforces.

Well, when we were in Afghanistan, with 19th GRP, neither A/CO, B/CO, or C/CO got any sort of lecture prohibiting the use of the 50 cal round against human targets. And it did come up in the in-country processing brief. There is nothing that supports the myth, I guess the GRP JAG is just smarter than the rest because he said kill them with whatever you can use. And we have several of our guys shoot badguys with the M82A2 and M2's. Heck, we even shot some directly with HEDP rounds from the MK-19.

As for Reed and KAC, it is a real travesty that this POS rifle is being put into service. We took 12 to A-stan, 5 were broken within the first 90 days. Cracked bolts, busted extractors and other issues pretty much kept them out of service. I was lucky enough to get the newer version issued to me and it was ok. But the fact that they beat our Remington under some very suspicious circumstances and nothing has come of the NIS investigation yet they have not had deliveries frozen is outrageous. I guess aledgedly taking Generals and Admirals on tours of the facility while you give their wives a CC with a $5,000 spending limit and taking them shopping is a good way to secure contracts. Once the investigation began they should have frozen all deliveries from KAC.

Either way, I hope he gets what is coming to him for delivering over priced, sub standard equipment to people who trust their lives to it. Not that I am biased from personal experience or anything.

 

[50 Freak]

Wow, that seems pretty crappy. I always thought the Reeds/KAC rifles were the "****" to have.

What's the skinny on these rifles.

 

[PvtPyle]

The originals were awesome. Now you could not give me one. If you can find an older one (pre 2000) then jump on it. They are fine weapons.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

In my service both with the Third Infantry Division and the 19th Special Forces Group, we were briefed and monitored by the respective JAG offices regarding the appropriate use of force and the ethics of combat.

Yes; but what I am asking you is where does JAG say that using the .50 BMG against personnel is unethical or against the laws of war? It seems strange that they would be briefing you that this is against the law of war when the Law of War Workshop Deskbook on page 178 says:

Sniper rifles, .50 machineguns, and shotguns: Much "mythology" exists about the lawfulness of these weapon systems. Bottom line: they are lawful weapons, although rules of engagement (policy and tactics) may limit their use.

Considering this workbook was published by the International and Operational Law Department, The Judge Advocate General's School, U.S. Army (2000), it seems a little weird that they would be teaching you something that seems to contravene the basic instruction JAG officers receive regrding the law of war.

 

[PvtPyle]

And while the M82A2 is an anti-material, that is because it is not extremely accurate at long range against people (across the board). It was meant to shoot holes in generators and the pressurized fuel tanks of Scud missles.

If they were against the rules for use on people, they would not be issuing us (ARSOF) a new McMillian Bros bolt gun which is EXTREMELY accurate against people with match ammo at extreme ranges. And it is an awesome gun.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

If soldiers can't use a .50 BMG against the enemy, then why can pilots in planes use them to strafe the enemy? As noted, Carlos Hathcock most certainly used one for making a record sniper shot of the time, only recently broken by a Canadian team with an American observer who used a .50 BMG to kill an opposition militant.

 

[Diomed]

Ah, another topic about my least favorite company on the planet (it is actually a three way tie between them, H&K and Colt).

What's your beef with Colt and H&K? If you don't mind my asking. Pure curiosity.

 

[lionking]

maybe I missed it,and not being in the military but may I ask why would'nt they choose a M14 platform over this new rifle which admittedly I know nothing about other than its similar to a M16 platform?

Is the AR10 considered more accurate than a M14,in a sniper configuiration?

 

[PvtPyle]

What's your beef with Colt and H&K? If you don't mind my asking. Pure curiosity.

Not to go off on a rant......

Colt, they suck for quality control and customer service. case in point. We received our brand new M4 rifles. After taking them out to zero them, the guys came back saying the bbls were loose. And they were. There was left to right play in the bbl. Long story short, we found the entire run of new M4's we received were over torqued to hide the fact that they were out of spec. we ran it up the line and Colt told big Army "Sorry, they are out of warranty" (because they sat in the warehouse too long). They could care less about the civilian market and are a PITA to deal with for anything. I will never carry a Colt product as I feel that the company is a bunch of spineless turds who only care about getting your money and then the rest is your problem. Like Special Weapons.....

H&K, they suck and are over rated. While the MP-5 is a nice weapon, and lead the pack of subguns for many years, they are worth about half what the Nazi's charge for them (the Nazi thing being a reference to the fact that they fled Germany to Spain until it was safe to come back, they did produce weapons for the Nazis, and if you have ever been to one of their schools you probably know what I mean as well). It is a stamped sheet metal receiver meant for wartime production. There are much more labor intensive designs out there that cost less. So why are H&K guns so much? They should cost agencies no more than $600 for what they are.

Now lets talk egronomics. They suck. Almost as bad as the AK (please keep in mind I do own a few MP-5s and nearly 20 AK's, I love them for what they are, but they aint all that). They are not all that they are made out to be. The American market had to fight tooth and nail to get the puch button mag release, ambi-safety multi-possition collapseable stock. It goes against everything they think should be in a weapon. The first time one of our guys showed them the modified multi possition stock at a school they about lost their minds. The whole mag clamp holding 2 mags was another heart stopper. Even though they made the thing they think it is the spawn of the devil and should never be used. We used them anyway.

Either way, all other issues aside the bottom line for me is I personally (and so have many other people we know) have had extremely bad experiences with them from and end user/ customer service stand point. They make guns that people trust their lives on. When they make them out of spec or bend you over on the price and then wont stand behind it is where I get off the boat with them. The military has done the same thing with Colt, and it looks like H&K is on its way out as well. The XM-8 is dead after the Rangers destroyed them in testing, the MK-23 is nearly universally hated by those issued them, the only thing people want from H&K is the MP-5, which I can understand. As a retailer, we wont stand behind or promote a company that wont stand behind their customers when there are problems with the product. For us the customer is the most important person out there. Anyone can make a gunt o fill a mission. If you ignore the customer's, their concerns or issues long enough they will go away. Just ask Colt and H&K

 

[Stiletto Null]

Hey, I like the USP series guns...

 

[mljdeckard]

The same JAG handbook you quote says that their use may be limited.

And the shot Hathcock took was against the frame of a bike, over the handlbars of which were slung rifles. The kid who was riding the bike fell off and started shooting at nothing, then Hathcock popped him.

Look, I'm not the weapon police. (I might be one day, I'm considering an option of having JAG pay for my law school in return for another stretch with them,) And in the dirt, I'm going to use whatever I have to. But you know, with the current political climate, with all the accusations and charges being used against soldiers, you know it's just a matter of time before a journalist captures a soldier on top of a hummer hosing a hoarde of jihadis with a .50, al-Jazeera airs it, France and Germany condemn it, and we are arguing with THEM over what is and isn't legal, and why WE never signed the Hague Accords.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The same JAG handbook you quote says that their use may be limited.

It says their use may be limited by the rules of engagement - i.e. the commander would prefer you not ventilate the local schoolyard with stray 50BMG or HEDP and restricts the use of those weapons as a policy decision.

That is a whole different ballgame from saying that using a .50 against a person is against the law of war, Hague convention, etc.

 

[Diomed]

Very educational, PvtPyle. Thank you.

 

[Grump]

Quote:
When I was in the pits (target type) and also just alongside the bullet path to the long range targets, I got a "crack" sound from the bullet, that was at 90 degrees from the bullet path. Could tell which target had been hit that way, sometimes. It is no help in figuring out where the shooter is.

Actually, the crack you heard wasn't the bullet breaking the sound barrier, it was the bullet going through the target paper and cheesecloth backing.

Bool-Pookey, sir! I've pulled targets at 600 for poor schmoes who were stuck with M2 Ball out of their borrowed or brand-new M1 Garands, which ammo/bullet combo goes subsonic somewhere past 500 and before 600 yards. Believe me, there is a DISTINCT difference between supersonic bullet crack and the bullet impact on even the thickest, stiffest wad of target centers.