Marlin 1895 SBL vs. Benelli M4 H2O

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The Black Magic doesn't impress me much. Here it is pictured with two proper dangerous game bullets. A 355gr .44 and a 425gr .475, both have a sectional density of around ~.270 and both will penetrate like a freight train. The Black Magic 'may' look somewhat impressive until you realize that its base is hollow and that its sectional density is dismal at .161, which is comparable to a 215gr .44. Now I don't know about you guys, the .44 makes a big enough hole but if I'm gonna shoot a bear with one, it sure as hell won't be a 215gr. Likewise, I won't go after one with a Brenneke slug either. Despite its name and marketing, there's nothing "magic" about it. It is held to all the same rules as every other cartridge. In actual testing, it penetrates about how you would expect it to. I will give it this, it is vastly superior to the old Foster type slugs.

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I have been shooting 450 grain wide lead gas checked flat points from my 2 cavity LBT mold for 25 years. They do go clean thru 300 pound eurasian boar we have around here in abundance, they do not seem to have the knock down that a 12 guage Brenneke (old school) has from the ones I've killed in cage traps.
The thing about the Marlin 1895 series is with out custom work I do NOT find them smooth feeding under stress. The old 1886 Winchester seems better in that respect BTW. I have an 1895 that was modified and smoothed up by a master, but still dragging it around in alder thickets or icy places I'll take a mauser type bolt gun in a heavy caliber or for strickly defense, a Remington 12 ga. 870 IMHO. I dunno about the Benelli stuff but they work well in duck blinds in all weather.
 
Craig...and you have extensive experience with stopping bear charges?

I only qualify my remarks by having lived in Alaska and carrying a 12 ga. Would it be a good choice to hunt bears? of course not. I also carried a .44 mag on occassion. I would not hunt a grizzly or brown bear with that either.

I wonder, does anyone know what Alaska Wildlife Troopers carry while on foot patrol in the bush? I suspect a 12 Ga shotgun, but then they would be only perpetuating a myth....

http://dnr.alaska.gov/parks/safety/bears.htm

Alaska state agencies also suggest a 12 ga for firearms protection. hmmm..
 
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A friend of mine who lives in canada and does lots of hunting there and in Ak swears by a flare gun as the best bear deterrent. I can't say I've had the opportunity to test it and kinda hope I never have to.
 
I wonder, does anyone know what Alaska Wildlife Troopers carry while on foot patrol in the bush?
They issue mostly 12ga shotguns. Not because it's the best choice but because they're cheaper than .375's. Of which they do not have enough for everyone. Make no mistake, the .375 is their first choice. However, I wouldn't go making my decisions based on what the government does or suggests. :rolleyes:
 
Although I've not taken a bear with the Brenneke, I have shot quite a few of them (ammunition). I used them for deer hunting back in the late '70's and early 80's.
I carried a M870 for quite a few years as a patrol gun, and it would be an "acceptable" bear defense alternative, but not "optimum". The Brenneke is "better" than the foster style slugs, but is still a "long way" from matching a heavy loaded .45/70, or .375 (or heavier/larger).
My personal choice would be the .45/70, as I have one, and loaded with my handload. However, If I "KNEW" I would need to shoot a bear, it would be my .375.....(Ruger M77 Hawkeye "Alaskan" w/23"bbl, but aftermarket Hogue stock).

Another thing not discussed is "follow up" shots. The shotgun with the Brenneke slugs kicks worse than a .458 Lott w/510gr bullets... Ask me how I know !!!! (hint, I've shot both.....even same day within moments of each other.....). Shotgun was my Rem. M870 w/20"bbl RifleSighted bbl; Rifle was a rechambered Interarms MkX "African" in .458Lott. I got to fire the Lott for the owner through my Chronograph. The ammo chrono'd 2,250fps with Hornady 510gr S.Pts. and Solids... I was suprised at the recoil; though substantial, not as much as I'd have thought/expected... from a 9.5lb rifle...

FWIW; a co-worker of my older brother had the occasion to shoot a brown/grizzly with a 12ga... It was in the late '70's while my brother was stationed in AK at Elmendorf, AFB. While camping out and fishing on the Susitna river, the "co-worker" awoke to the suprise that a bear (approx. 500lb grizz/brown) was "chomping" on his foot through the sleeping bag he was sleeping in... Having "only" a M870 w/18.5"bbl as his only gun, he had taken it, loaded with the then new Winchester 1oz slugs (2 3/4"); he had it next to the sleeping bag, loaded as he'd seen bears earlier in the day.
He fired the first round into the bears head at near contact distance. The remaining 4rds were fired into the rear of the departing bear. Troopers found the bear the next day about 75yds from the camp in the dense alders, dead.... The teeth marks/saliva on the sleeping bag and powder burns on the head/face of the bear kept him out of jail.......
So, I know the 12ga will "work". Even with "foster" style slugs... But, given the situation, I'd prefer the .45/70 or .375..... As they penetrate better and KICK LESS......allowing faster follow-up shots...
 
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Another thing not discussed is "follow up" shots. The shotgun with the Brenneke slugs kicks worse than a .458 Lott w/510gr bullets...
That's one thing folks tend to forget. Lightweight pump shotguns aren't made for shooting slugs and have atrocious recoil with them. Make that slug a Dixie Terminator 870gr at 1200fps and recoil will be intolerable. That is, intolerable recoil for a round with the same propensity to penetrate as a 250gr .44Spl Keith load. A big bore rifle puts A LOT more on the target, will smash heavy bones while penetrating deeply and does so without beating you up unnecessarily.

This is not a new concept people. Heavy for caliber (which means high sectional density), toughly constructed bullets at moderate velocity have been proven to work the best on dangerous game. Not flying ashtrays. My uncle's 800lb bear soaked up five .416's before giving up and right up until he fell over, he never showed any reaction to being hit. Do you really want to try and stop one with a scattergun??? Shotguns are recommended because they are cheap and most people already have one. Most folks going to Alaska would have no problem spending $200 on a used pump shotgun. This is "why", not because it's the best tool for the job. IMHO, it would be extremely foolish to take a shotgun and leave the .45-70 at home.
 
I have had an 1895 or 2 or 3 since 1973 and here are my feelings: The 45-70 is a great round and gives you a 200 yard kill range, more than twice what a Brenneke 12 ga slug has on game hardier than deer, besides the accuracy issue.
I don't have an M4 Benelli but I've had an M-1 Super 90 for almost 20 years and it has been stone reliable with even 3" monster slug diets.
The 1895 sometimes can have feeding and extraction issues especially around snow and ice in my experience. Maybe that is why they sell the odd bits to help those issues! I sure wouldn't want to worry about smooth cycling the lever during a bear charge.
In a bear attack remember the bear is coming at you so the SG has the advantage as you aren't drawing a bead as in hunting.
Personally I would get a 12ga Super Nova for $1000 less than the M-4 as you can keep the Nova "cruiser ready" which is really a safe and ready carry mode the M-4 can't do as fast, the rare m-3 COULD of course. And with that $1000 I'd buy a 30-06 stainless bolt gun, like a Rem 700 or Savage with fixed iron sights and put a Leupold VX2 2-7 in Warne lever mounts. This combo could be done easily under $1000 and would give you everything you would ever need for any game in the States (or any where really) out to too far AND you have the $450 12ga Super Nova for all your shotgun uses and personall protection even against the biggest bears. BTW the bears around Glacier wake up really nasty and hungry IMHO from spring hunts around there. Even worse than the ones I've met in AK during hunting season. Still with either of what I suggested you would have adequate equipment with the right ammo. The 12ga better for defensive carry tho IMHO.
"as you can keep the Nova "cruiser ready" which is really a safe and ready carry mode the M-4 can't do as fast, the rare m-3 COULD of course."
don't understand what you mean by this...both have safety and can have rnd in the chamber w/safety on???
 
To throw another option into the mix: about a Ruger 77 African in 9.3x62... Reliable M98 action, express sights, good penetrating bullet.

Seem to be some good deals on gunbroker when compared to a Benelli M4 or a Serious lever action.

Just my 2c.

ATB,

Scrummy
 
The .45-70 and other big thumper rifles may be better ballistically but shotgun hard slugs have proven themselves to be up to the task and the shotgun itself is going to be lighter to carry, handier and quicker to bring to bear in a close range defense situation than most big bore rifles.
 
^
True. Recoil goes hand in hand with power. I don't even think they make a nine shot semi-auto elephant rifle for less than $1000.
 
...the shotgun itself is going to be lighter to carry, handier and quicker to bring to bear in a close range defense situation than most big bore rifles.
Pure nonsense. My 870 with its 20" barrel is 7.2lbs unloaded and 40.5" overall. Marlin .45/70's run 6.75-7.5lbs. The 22" 1895SS is also 40.5" but the 18.5" variants are 37". A good levergun will be 8lbs tops, most less than that. There is no quicker handling long gun than a leveraction carbine. Sorry but this regurgitated fluff just doesn't withstand scrutiny.


The .45-70 and other big thumper rifles may be better ballistically but shotgun hard slugs have proven themselves to be up to the task...
Proof, what proof?
 
all in all...

hmmm...I have read ALL these really good points, a lot semm quite subjective to personal bias vs. what actually works best...and I guess, in the end, this is REALLY impossible to "nail down", so to speak, as EVERY bear attack/charge is going to involve sightly different dynamics & every bear is different to some degree (size, mood, level of commitment to kill...etc.?)...so as long as caliber/ballistics seem worthy of POWER & PENETRATION required for between 500-1500 lbs. of charging adrenaline filled heavy muscled, fat & boned BEAST, pissed, alarmed, protective,hungry, whatever...
...I guess, for me, it comes down to what I can deploy, kinda aim(from any awkward position and fire quickly and with the quickest FOLLOW UP shot (I do not think proper weight has been given to a SECOND very quick "2nd chance" shot , in case the 1st aint so good() ...
I know, not much time for even one sometimes...but not ALWAYS, I would guess
)...THIS K.I.S.S. principle, for ME, will be a HUGE determining factor, as to what I carry in BIG BEAR Land.
After ALL said and done, given this "criteria"...I say Benelli M4 H20 loaded with either, Brenneke, D Dupleks, or Dixie hi-perfomance slugs...with the .500 S&W 4" revolver as las ditch BUG, of if the SG is not near...( most HIGHLY exaggerate how bad the recoil is for that, especially for one last shot...I find it fine, as do even the women in my life... "girly-men" need to get-a-grrip, no pun intended...lol ).

I really think, for me, not having to "THINK"..or manipulate a LEVER-PUMP-BOLT...under extreme duress & stress...just point & fire as fast & sure on target as possible, in the SHORTEST time...(having practiced with weapon & rnds, extensively )...is the ticket, for me.
I do not have years & years, thousands of rnds. fired thru ONE "action", be it lever, pump or bolt...that it becomes "second nature" that I could cycle fast without possibly causing a jam myself, due to muscles tightening...or whatever.
A super reliable semi-auto good enough for the US Marines & L.E. that is battle proven... is something I'd rather bet my life on...
... the speed and simplicity of aiming and pulling that trigger repeatedly, putting as much lead on target in the shortest time, and YES of course doing the BEST to make that 1st shot REALLY count (shot placement ):)
 
Good luck, because if you're not willing to spend the time necessary to become proficient with your chosen weapon, whatever that may be, you're certainly going to need it. Sorry but the semi-auto seems to be lending you a false sense of security that all you have to do is point and pull the trigger. If you think you're just gonna point & blast with that .500 you've got another thing coming. Girly men? Grow up and drop the macho rhetoric.
 
There's always something "better". Perhaps. Like that's new. Covetous and prideful creatures that we are. We all must/will make our own decisions in life. not really a rocket.
I'd whap a bear with a slug were it necessary and not whine about it were I to fail/die.
 
Pure nonsense. My 870 with its 20" barrel is 7.2lbs unloaded and 40.5" overall. Marlin .45/70's run 6.75-7.5lbs. The 22" 1895SS is also 40.5" but the 18.5" variants are 37". A good levergun will be 8lbs tops, most less than that. There is no quicker handling long gun than a leveraction carbine. Sorry but this regurgitated fluff just doesn't withstand scrutiny.

I said "most", not "all". Also even a pump is likely going to be a bit quicker to deliver follow up shots than a lever, let alone a bolt, a good 12 gauge semiauto could probably empty the magazine before you got off a second shot with a big lever.

Proof, what proof?

I can't physically show up at your doorstep with a pile of dead bears, but I've spoken to enough folks who work in grizzly and polar bear country and have used them in self defense, that I would and *do* trust them during my own forays into bear country.
 
Good luck, because if you're not willing to spend the time necessary to become proficient with your chosen weapon, whatever that may be, you're certainly going to need it. Sorry but the semi-auto seems to be lending you a false sense of security that all you have to do is point and pull the trigger. If you think you're just gonna point & blast with that .500 you've got another thing coming. Girly men? Grow up and drop the macho rhetoric.
Where do you get..."you're not willing to spend the time necessary to become proficient with your chosen weapon, whatever that may be..."...did I say that I was NOT going to practice a bunch with what I chose???
No, I said that I have not spent the time I feel is required "WITH ANY ONE SYSTEM/ACTON...that that gun is second nature under stress...not that I will not when I figure what the BEST for this application will be...and I KNOW the possibility of encountering a bear attack is gonna be very possible where I am going to be,,,often.
What I was saying, and you may have misunderstood, as I kept prefacing my "ideas" with the phrase "for me"...so not to insult anyone else's ability or firearm preference...what I really believe is that anybody would be better off with a really good & reliable semi-auto shooting a hard hitting penetrating round, given those who have been there done that...describe the speed of these attacks and the stress put on you to respond quickly.
I have taken into account the varying "opinions" of all who responded to my 3 threads relating to this subject, which may sound like I am obsessed with this, but really I just need to be prepared as best I can. It is by choice and also by necessity that I will be in MT. most often, family stuff.

Also, you just seem to be down on shotguns maybe like to argue for your pet rifles and many here do not agree?
Modern "boutique" Hi-Power slug designs seem to test out to penetrate as well as the big bore rifle rnds & cast bullets and deliver as much energy close range where everyone seems to agree is where the bear will be...CLOSE.
 
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I'm with Craig C, and if you are going around with an M4 with one up the spout and relying on the safety, I'll put you on point . BTW cruiser ready is a full mag and the chamber empty. You would find stroking a pump about as fast as finding a safety. The M4 you would want a bigger bolt knob to carry in that sane mode if you are performing daily activities. The M4 is also pretty dang heavy burden compared to a Nova H20 say BTW. A rifle is the only wilderness tool that can do it all tho - hunt AND defense and I would find a 30-06 to a .375 about perfect for such chores, in the real world.
 
The 45-70 has killed the big 5 in Africa. Penetration with modern hard cast loads is 5-6 feet. In its lower powered original forum it eradicated the American buffalo.

I'm sure the 12 gauge has merits but it really does not compare to the 45-70 for killing large dangerous game.
 
No, I said that I have not spent the time I feel is required "WITH ANY ONE SYSTEM/ACTON...that that gun is second nature under stress...not that I will not when I figure what the BEST for this application will be...and I KNOW the possibility of encountering a bear attack is gonna be very possible where I am going to be,,,often.
Then I misunderstood and apologize.


Also even a pump is likely going to be a bit quicker to deliver follow up shots than a lever, let alone a bolt, a good 12 gauge semiauto could probably empty the magazine before you got off a second shot with a big lever.
Wrong on all counts. The levergun in capable hands gives up very little, if any to even a semi-auto. Mainly because the lever is operated while coming down from recoil. Which is not something that can be hurried. So the actual time between controlled, aimed shots is going to be similar. This is well proven. Besides, it's the first shot that counts.


I've spoken to enough folks who work in grizzly and polar bear country and have used them in self defense, that I would and *do* trust them during my own forays into bear country.
Third-hand anecdotal information doesn't carry much weight.


Also, you just seem to be down on shotguns maybe like to argue for your pet rifles and many here do not agree?
I'm not down on shotguns, I've probably spent more on shotguns than 90% of the people here. I'm down on shotguns for this purpose, because it just doesn't compute. Period. At all. It seems to have this mystical quality that defies all laws of nature and physics. For whatever reason, people believe the 12ga slug can be bested by nothing short of a 20mm cannon. Fortunately for those of us in the real world, perception does not equal reality. I believed it too once and for the same reasons. Until one day I decided to think for myself and after doing some calculations and research, I changed my thinking. Because the slug is not magical. It has to abide by all the same rules. Those rules state that for deep penetration you need a toughly constructed projectile with a high sectional density. This is well-proven and beyond question over +100yrs of use in Africa. This rules out the Foster slug immediately. Because it's too soft and has a lower sectional density than roundball, if you can believe that. The Black Magic is certainly better, it's hardcast and heavier but still not heavy enough. Like I said, comparable to lighter jacketed pistol bullets. Finally, with the Dixie Terminator we're getting into range but it's still only comparable to standard weight pistol bullets. Not even in the same zip code as a 4050gr .45/70 or 355gr .444, let alone a 300gr .375, 400gr .416, .405 or .450/.400.


Modern "boutique" Hi-Power slug designs seem to test out to penetrate as well as the big bore rifle rnds & cast bullets and deliver as much energy close range where everyone seems to agree is where the bear will be...CLOSE.
But they do not penetrate as well. They penetrate how we should expect them to, according to their sectional density.


If you stuff that .375 barrel flush to the crown with 9 shot, you'll be lucky to hit paper at ten yards.
What does this even mean???


So has the 7x57 and probably the .22.
This is irrelevant and neither are legal.
 
Then I misunderstood and apologize.



Wrong on all counts. The levergun in capable hands gives up very little, if any to even a semi-auto. Mainly because the lever is operated while coming down from recoil. Which is not something that can be hurried. So the actual time between controlled, aimed shots is going to be similar. This is well proven. Besides, it's the first shot that counts.



Third-hand anecdotal information doesn't carry much weight.



I'm not down on shotguns, I've probably spent more on shotguns than 90% of the people here. I'm down on shotguns for this purpose, because it just doesn't compute. Period. At all. It seems to have this mystical quality that defies all laws of nature and physics. For whatever reason, people believe the 12ga slug can be bested by nothing short of a 20mm cannon. Fortunately for those of us in the real world, perception does not equal reality. I believed it too once and for the same reasons. Until one day I decided to think for myself and after doing some calculations and research, I changed my thinking. Because the slug is not magical. It has to abide by all the same rules. Those rules state that for deep penetration you need a toughly constructed projectile with a high sectional density. This is well-proven and beyond question over +100yrs of use in Africa. This rules out the Foster slug immediately. Because it's too soft and has a lower sectional density than roundball, if you can believe that. The Black Magic is certainly better, it's hardcast and heavier but still not heavy enough. Like I said, comparable to lighter jacketed pistol bullets. Finally, with the Dixie Terminator we're getting into range but it's still only comparable to standard weight pistol bullets. Not even in the same zip code as a 4050gr .45/70 or 355gr .444, let alone a 300gr .375, 400gr .416, .405 or .450/.400.



But they do not penetrate as well. They penetrate how we should expect them to, according to their sectional density.



What does this even mean???



This is irrelevant and neither are legal.
You make intelligent points...so do others...however, you keep repeating the terms "research & calculations and sectional density" , as if that is the be-all end-all?
On paper, you may be correct...numbers "show" etc., etc. , but what a bout the real world shootings?
Big bears are routinely dispatched, so those who have done it say, with good slugs..no apparent difference to the BEARs, apparently wether hit a few feet away by a hardcast or a slug...and NO respect as to the gun, caliber or bullet design...apparently.

It seems that reasonable power, penetration and the KING "placement" is all that REALLY matters?
Someone correct me if my logic based on ALL the opinions & advice given here...is in flawed or in error?
 
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