Marlin 1895 SBL vs. Benelli M4 H2O

[16n69]

Sure I got all that...so I bought both, wanted a cowboy gun anyhow...and might as well get a cool modern one in a bear busting round (45-70) instead of 30-30...if I need that...but also love the Benelli SG's.

I bought the inertia driven very fast & reliable M2 tactical 1st and then saw & read up on the US MARINE approved M4's even MORE reliable with the self cleaning gas system Benelli developed for the military...then the H20 came out, best of the M4's and with that self-lubricating weather proof NP3 coating inside & out...
... AND, for the 1st time. a 7+1 shell capacity right-out-of-the-box...no extra tube purchase & install needed...had to have it

Great 3 position adjustable/collapsable stock...especially when you have heavy coat on and need that stock a bit shorter.
And talk about versatility ...in other ways a SG is more versatile than a rifle...like home defense with shot instead of a bullet that will go thru the bad guy the walls and 3 neighbors.

The Marlin 1896SBL 45-70 vs. Benelli M4 H2O...the one I shoot faster & better is the one I will grab for Grizzly and with Garretts or Brenneke's, I WILL be loaded for Bear!

 

[CraigC]

Did you read the penetration test results at all??? Do you understand that real rifles penetrated more than double what even the Dixie Terminator penetrated? Do you understand that the Dixie is 130-260gr heavier than the Black Magic? Do you not understand how sectional density affects penetration? Do you just have no understanding of how all this works??? Or are you just going to be like eveybody else and cling to the myth?

No actually, as the OP, I was trying to discern if most felt that ONE of these
two were completely inadequate...

Yet that is not what you asked.

What would be a better primary defense weapon while in large bear country......Marlin 1895 SBL in 45-70 w/ Garrett 540-gr SuperHardCast Hammerhead vs. Benelli M4 H2O w/ Brenneke Black Magic 3" slugs.

Can you post some data about the Brenneke BM penetration test if someone ever conducted them?? It would be interesting to read about it.

I don't know if I ever found that data or not. You'll have to search for previous bear defense threads. I'm simply not going to the trouble again.

Shot placement RULES no matter what projectile / caliber...the penetration for both is overkill at close range...

Shot placement is a given. One of my most important points is that there is no such thing as too much penetration when it comes to dangerous game. Although I disagree on the level, the heavy rifle may or may not penetrate enough to exit. While the Black Magic is what I would call barely adequate. If you think by some "black magic" that slug with an SD of .161 is going to penetrate as deeply as a big bore rifle bullet with an SD of .270-.300, you're smokin' the good stuff.

...but you are not listening to those who have been charged, attacked , mauled or just deal often with these critters...they believe the SG w/slug is as good and sometimes better than rifles.

Again, one more time, who are these people you are referring to???

...they believe the SG w/slug is as good and sometimes better than rifles.

Now I've heard it all. Care to show any proof to this statement???

 

[16n69]

Did you read the penetration test results at all??? Do you understand that real rifles penetrated more than double what even the Dixie Terminator penetrated? Do you understand that the Dixie is 130-260gr heavier than the Black Magic? Do you not understand how sectional density affects penetration? Do you just have no understanding of how all this works??? Or are you just going to be like eveybody else and cling to the myth?



Yet that is not what you asked.




I don't know if I ever found that data or not. You'll have to search for previous bear defense threads. I'm simply not going to the trouble again.



Shot placement is a given. One of my most important points is that there is no such thing as too much penetration when it comes to dangerous game. Although I disagree on the level, the heavy rifle may or may not penetrate enough to exit. While the Black Magic is what I would call barely adequate. If you think by some "black magic" that slug with an SD of .161 is going to penetrate as deeply as a big bore rifle bullet with an SD of .270-.300, you're smokin' the good stuff.



Again, one more time, who are these people you are referring to???



Now I've heard it all. Care to show any proof to this statement???

Once & for all...there is more to penetration and massive shock & tissue damage than sectional density...it is not the "Holy Grail" of sudden death for bears.

I respect those who have been attacked and who have lived...and Brenneke's as well as other slugs get the job done.
How many bear charges have you stopped with your super SD boolits & death ray rifles over there in Nashville...?

 

[CraigC]

Once & for all...there is more to penetration and massive shock & tissue damage than sectional density...it is not the "Holy Grail" of sudden death for bears.

Maybe in fantasyland. So I guess the answer is that you DO NOT understand how all of this works. Let me make this simple, bullets of similar sectional density, similar construction and fired at a similar velocity will all demonstrate the same propensity to penetrate. The only difference is that bigger bullets will make bigger holes. Bigger bullets will be more likely to break bones rather than poke a hole in them. The three important factors in determining a non-expanding bullet's effectiveness on game are diameter and sectional density. Velocity is the distant third. For any load in which the first two are adequate, velocity can be anywhere from 1200-2000fps. A bullet of sufficent diameter (like a slug) but with insufficient sectional density will make a big, shallow hole. A bullet of insufficient diameter (think 7.62 ball) and high sectional density will penetrate deeply but make a small hole with little tissue disruption. A bullet of large diameter (anything from .40 on up) coupled with a high sectional density will not only make a large hole but destroy a lot of tissue on its very deep path through the animal's body. Preferably resulting in an exit wound.

I respect those who have been attacked and who have lived...and Brenneke's as well as other slugs get the job done.

Again, who are these people and where are they? Where may I read their stories? I would like the opportunity to respect them too.

How many bear charges have you stopped with your super SD boolits & death ray rifles over there in Nashville...?

How many elephant charges do you think Gary Reeder has stopped in Flagstaff, AZ??? Probably not too many but he does go to Africa every year. How many Cape buffalo charges do you think Ross Seyfried has stopped in the US? Probably not too many but he has taken them with a revolver. How many of the African Big Six do you think Mark Hampton has taken in the US? My guess would be ZERO but he has done it multiple times in Africa.....with a handgun. Theodore Roosevelt grew up in the Northeast, how many large, exotic and dangerous critters do you think he has experience with? What about WDM Bell? Frederick Courteney Selous??? I guess we're not all stuck in the zip code we call home. I guess when I spent two weeks in Anchorage I should've asked the clerk at the big two-story McDonald's about killing bears. Because apparently simply living in the same state with them makes you more an expert than those who have actually killed them. A juvenile statement, at best. But keep deflecting the real questions, you further illustrate my point.

PS, I live two hours from Nashville, which is considered "middle Tennessee" so I don't really know if they have bears or not. I make a VERY good income working from home, handload and shoot on my own property almost daily. Typically 2000-3000rds a month. How much shooting do you do? I may buy as many as a dozen guns a year. I do most of my own gunsmithing and action jobs. I have no children and have been married less than a year. I drive an older vehicle, I don't play golf, own a boat, go fishing, buy a new vehicle every two years, smoke cigarettes, drink beer, or waste money on the things most people waste money on. I buy guns, I handload and I shoot. How much time, money and effort do you spend on your shooting?

All that and I sit here and answer dumb questions from people who start half a dozen different threads because they don't know what to shoot a bear with.

 

[16n69]

Maybe in fantasyland. So I guess the answer is that you DO NOT understand how all of this works. Let me make this simple, bullets of similar sectional density, similar construction and fired at a similar velocity will all demonstrate the same propensity to penetrate. The only difference is that bigger bullets will make bigger holes. Bigger bullets will be more likely to break bones rather than poke a hole in them. The three important factors in determining a non-expanding bullet's effectiveness on game are diameter and sectional density. Velocity is the distant third. For any load in which the first two are adequate, velocity can be anywhere from 1200-2000fps. A bullet of sufficent diameter (like a slug) but with insufficient sectional density will make a big, shallow hole. A bullet of insufficient diameter (think 7.62 ball) and high sectional density will penetrate deeply but make a small hole with little tissue disruption. A bullet of large diameter (anything from .40 on up) coupled with a high sectional density will not only make a large hole but destroy a lot of tissue on its very deep path through the animal's body. Preferably resulting in an exit wound.



Again, who are these people and where are they? Where may I read their stories? I would like the opportunity to respect them too.



How many elephant charges do you think Gary Reeder has stopped in Flagstaff, AZ??? Probably not too many but he does go to Africa every year. How many Cape buffalo charges do you think Ross Seyfried has stopped in the US? Probably not too many but he has taken them with a revolver. How many of the African Big Six do you think Mark Hampton has taken in the US? My guess would be ZERO but he has done it multiple times in Africa.....with a handgun. Theodore Roosevelt grew up in the Northeast, how many large, exotic and dangerous critters do you think he has experience with? What about WDM Bell? Frederick Courteney Selous??? I guess we're not all stuck in the zip code we call home. I guess when I spent two weeks in Anchorage I should've asked the clerk at the big two-story McDonald's about killing bears. Because apparently simply living in the same state with them makes you more an expert than those who have actually killed them. A juvenile statement, at best. But keep deflecting the real questions, you further illustrate my point.

PS, I live two hours from Nashville, which is considered "middle Tennessee" so I don't really know if they have bears or not. I make a VERY good income working from home, handload and shoot on my own property almost daily. Typically 2000-3000rds a month. How much shooting do you do? I may buy as many as a dozen guns a year. I do most of my own gunsmithing and action jobs. I have no children and have been married less than a year. I drive an older vehicle, I don't play golf, own a boat, go fishing, buy a new vehicle every two years, smoke cigarettes, drink beer, or waste money on the things most people waste money on. I buy guns, I handload and I shoot. How much time, money and effort do you spend on your shooting?

All that and I sit here and answer dumb questions from people who start half a dozen different threads because they don't know what to shoot a bear with.

"Again, who are these people and where are they? Where may I read their stories? I would like the opportunity to respect them too. "
Well. for starters. this forum's own, kodiakbeer for one...has been mauled, you could start reading his posts, amoung others here...and perhaps buy & read his book.
Still after all that shooting at paper...and jugs...it does not qualify you to tell me all about bear defense, I will listen to those who are there, been attacked and KNOW what works.
What is your problem...you just have to have the las word of something...just stop posting here, you are not the bear authority that I or anyone else has to submit to or your academic "opinions".
Give it a rest.

 

[Mal H]

Closed at the request of the OP. As he stated, he has his answers and further discussion isn't necessary.