"
Because factory ammo is terribly expensive and I thought you wanted to shoot enough to be "proficient"?"
>well, when it come to life & death...money is no object, I am not hurting financially and will spend whatever it takes, no problem there!
"
I'm left wondering if this is a "real" discussion or just an academic exercise."
That is funny, 'cause your posts are mostly "paper fact", with no "REAL WORLD" experience. I admit, when it comes to AK & bears, I am a "newb"...as my kids would say, lol...but that is why I am here!
I value what the guys facing the bears, year in & out have to say...
" March 7, 2012, 03:21 PM #37
KodiakBeer
Member
Join Date: April 10, 2010
Location: Kodiak, AK
Posts: 3,280
Quote:
"
I think, and I could be wrong, that a short barreled 12 gauge loaded with 00 buck shot would be the best defensive weapon against bears of any size. You'd have a much better chance of hitting a charging bear in the face blinding him to ward off the attack.
I think you could be right, though 000 buck might be a better choice. If you hit the bear in the face, he's going down. There is very little bone between your shot and his brain.
For some reason, my coach shotgun throws buck high, but with old fashioned Foster slugs it hits under the golden bead. So, I use Foster slugs when I carry it. It also throws modern sabot slugs high, so go figure... Yet, throws birdshot right on the money. Even Dave McCracken was unable to figure that one out, and he's forgotten more about shotguns than any of us will ever know.
I feel pretty confident with a shotgun. I can hit a running rabbit or flying ptarmigan without much effort, so I don't think a bears face is a much greater challenge."
__________________
A Kodiak Bear Mauling:
http://www.amazon.com/A-Kodiak-Bear-...910559&sr=1-13
March 7, 2012, 04:04 PM #39
rugerman07
Member
"
Not to disagree for the sake of disagreement alone, but I don't believe buckshot is a great bear defense at all when you look at two issues: Penetration and spread.
If you look at tests for both, you see that buckshot is a very limited option even at close ranges."
I will stick with the biggest, fattest piece of lead I can throw at the critters as fast as they can go."
"
I disagree. In a close encounter situation with a charging bear, I don't care how good of a shooter you are with a rifle, you're gonna be scared to death. Your chances of dropping him in his tracks is much better with a face shot of 00 or 000 buck shot."
March 7, 2012, 05:31 PM #40
KodiakBeer
Member
"I
think a good case can be made for buck or slugs, depending on how you look at it.
If you miss that face shot, you'll sure wish you had a slug. However, you have a better chance of making that face shot with a ten or twelve inch spread of 000 buck.
Six of one, half dozen of another.
I carry slugs, because that's what hits under the bead of my preferred shotgun."
I don't want to start a debate on slugs vs buckshot, but I can at least see the reasoning behind buckshot.
A bears brain is about the thickness of a softball, but it's oblong in shape. In size, it's not much different than a skinned rabbit. A bears face, at least the central area behind the nose and mouth where the bulk of the brain lies, is not bulletproof by any means. A few thin sheets of bone is all that lies between you and the brain. So, if you can reliably hit a running bunny at 15 yards with #6 shot, you can reliably hit a bears nose at the same distance with 000.
So, I guess the question you'd ask yourself is how often you miss that running bunny because he's at an awkward angle when he breaks cover or there's brush between you and it, or you're just caught by surprise. There's no doubt in my mind that if you make the shot at close range with heavy buck (under 20 yards?) that bear is going down right there.
I'll stick with slugs because I think you get extra insurance with a near miss because of the great penetration, but I still think a shotgun with buckshot is a much better choice than a handgun, or the typical hunting rifle topped with a 3x9 for that matter.
"Dear Kodiakbeer,
I found a great study done a while back by Stephen Herrero that had some interesting stats:
Quote:
In 64% (14 of 22; G1 = 1.62, P = 0.203) of incidents involving grizzly bears, the inferred motivation was “startled”. Of these incidents where the bear’s inferred motivation was “startled,” the initial encounter distance was <50 m in 100% (11 of 11; G1 = 14.6, P < 0.001) of the incidents where the initial encounter distance was known.
http://www.macecanada.com/downloads/AB_injuries.pdf
Most attacks are by startle reaction of an unsuspecting bear. In this study, he used 50 meters or less as the measuring stick. 50 meters gives you 3-4 seconds of a headlong charge right at you to respond. That is not much time to comprehend and react as you have stated. Herrero didn't break down the distances less than 50 meters, but of course, many will be that type of distance and less in these startle attacks.
The take home message is to have more than one type of defense and more than one person running around in bear country.
Last edited by Alaska444; March 7, 2012 at 09:45 PM."
response: "Quote:
"
Most attacks are by startle reaction of an unsuspecting bear.
I certainly agree. As to less than 50 meters, I also agree. I suspect if you broke those down in increments less than 50 meters, the great majority would be less than 20 meters.
When you break down the other 36% of attacks (at least where brown/grizzlies are the culprit) you'll find the majority of those are stalk or ambush attacks. You're packing out a deer or caribou and the bear stalks in and rushes you. Or, the bear is laid up on a game trail to ambush game and you happen along. Again, from very close range when the final rush begins.
The problem always, is that you have so many anecdotal "attacks" that are ended with a gun before they really begin. I could relate two or three of those told to me for every actual attack survivor I've spoken or emailed with.
I don't know how well this will illustrate the issue, but here's a short video I shot below my house a couple summers ago. This is about 5am and a bear is acting like an idiot in the surf. I decided I'd be an idiot and go down and film him. I was armed, but what I did at first was get in between him and the woods/brush behind me. I cut off his escape route.
So, if you watch closely, he gets nervous a couple times and begins to run at me. Just short lopes to tell me to back off - it's particularly apparent at 1.41 seconds into the vid. What you can't see is that during the entire vid I keep edging to the left to give him an exit route, but then he keeps running my way and cutting himself off.
I'm holding the camera to my eye, and every time he looks my way I drop my face in submission. When the camera pans to the ground or looks left or right, I'm turning my face or bowing my head to tell him I'm not a threat. Each time I do that, he immediately looses interest in me.
A different person having this bear take even a short lope at him might have shot him, and you'd have another case of someone being saved by a gun - at fairly long range, because the bear is at least 40 or 50 yards from me."
Anyway, typical bear behavior:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt86lKjaA7c
"March 7, 2012, 08:15 PM #45
Alaska444
Member
Join Date: October 2, 2010
Posts: 71
Dear Kodiakbeer,
I have great respect for your knowledge and your courage in the way that you handled your own bear mauling and I do look forward to the last free offer of your book that I believe has one more chance to come.
Grizzly bears are a frightful creature and I hope to only see them up close in a zoo. My only encounter with a bear was when I was three years old near Fairbanks when a black bear came and brushed up against our umbrella tent back in 1961. My dad yelled when he saw the bear paw come within a foot of his head. That is when I awoke and can still remember the silhouette of the bear standing on his hind legs with the ever present sun in early morning summer Alaska.
I am aware of many bear encounters documented in books and other sources and to say that you would not likely have a chance to shoot a bear in self defense at 25 yards and then be charged with hunting/poaching is not the case with several encounters documented. I don't wish to test any of these theories in person as you have, but bear attacks come in wide variety of shapes and presentations. Yes, the ambush attacks are pretty much impossible to defend against no matter what your choice of gun/pepper spray since you can't react and deploy that quickly. At 10 yards, you have 1-2 seconds at best.
Several factors come into play. Two of the most important are numbers of people in a group and visibility. Most attacks occur with only 1-2 people and in dense brush. Attacks on 4 or more people are rare, but do occur. The avoidance of these two factors increases the avoidance factor. Playing in dense brush in bear country is asking for an encounter. Unfortunately, there are many places where it can't be avoided, in that case, rule number two on numbers applies.
Once again, I have great respect for your knowledge on these issues, but attacks do come in a variety of circumstances and there are many documented attacks thwarted by shots at 25 yards and sometimes more that are ruled DLP's. Once again, 25 yards for a bear is 2-3 seconds, not much time at all.
My main issue with buckshot is the lack of penetration, the low sectional density and the need to still aim the gun."
RESpoNSE:
"March 7, 2012, 08:57 PM #46
KodiakBeer
Member
Join Date: April 10, 2010
Location: Kodiak, AK
Posts: 3,280
I just can say that over the last ten years I've personally talked with a variety of people who have had the experience, and read far more accounts than I can recall. When it comes to grizzly/browns, the attacks almost always unfold as I describe - from extreme close range. Some of those accounts are related in the book.
I'm not talking about legality or being charged if you shoot a bear doing his threat display at 30 yards, because for the most part the state will give you the benefit of a doubt. Yet, few (if any) of those are actual attacks or would have turned into attacks... in my opinion. It's only my opinion, based on my experiences. I take no offense with you or anyone else who disagrees."
__________________
A Kodiak Bear Mauling:
http://www.amazon.com/A-Kodiak-Bear-...910559&sr=1-13
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