Marlin 1895 SBL vs. Benelli M4 H2O

[16n69]

"Going back to the Brenneke Black Magic.....the advantage of this particular slug go beyond his mediocre SD.....the sholuder is particularly sharp and it is a .73 cal projectile....we are not talking about the difference between a .30 cal and a .35 or .38 cal.......we are talking almost double the diameter of a 375.....
In a defense situation we are talking extremely short distances.....and the only way to stop a real charge is to connect your bullet with the CNS (brain or spine) of the animal....everything else is just conversation...
A person that i respect a lot with a ton of knowledge told me how amazed he was when he saw a big bear still running uphill with his lungs and heart shot out.....
I personally saw the penetration of a Black Magic, a fun test we carried on layers upon layers of butcher shop large bones and wood panels.....if you think that slug is not very effective on a brownine (again connecting with the animal CNS) I have a bridge in New York to sell....
Thank you...brenneke may be a "salesman"...have an "agenda"...or rather, just a business, I realize this, however, they extensively TEST as do others, like Dixie & Ddulplek...and the fact for penetration, controlled expansion ( or just devastating tissue damage due to the design of slug and the act that it goes in, as you describe twice that of a .375 )...the FACTS as they can & will present...speak for themselves."

"I place more value on those who have actually killed critters have to say. Living in Alaska does not make one an expert."
>>>Just what did you think I meant when I said "those who face bears year in & out"...meeting them for coffee & a danish?

BTW...thought I would stop by the gun shop here in town, that is listed by Rock River Arms as their .458 SOCOM dealer here...and while they said they could "order" but they were bak-ordered 90 days or more...the had the Benelli M4 H2O that had just come in 2 days prior...and the salesman that sold me my M2...handed it to me...I was shocked, as even Benelli said they are back-ordered like everywhere 3-6 months and possibly at the end of this years "run"?
Turns out the owner of the shop ordered it 6 months ago at the show...price was right, I snapped it up.

Bottom line here, what I believe everyone can agree on, based on the experience of those charged, attacked, mauled, survived...
...is that [against BIG ANGRY charging BEARS, B]many, many types of calibers/bullets/slugs/SG/rifle/HG ALL may work at the EXTREMELY CLOSE range[/B] these REAL attacks take place, the "distance" that separates a REAL attack from long distance DLP or a 1st strike so to speak "preventive-Killing", hunting/poaching etc..
What has been impressed on me, self confessed "Bear-defense-newbie" ( but not new to firearms, mostly combat HG's)...is that;
1. Quick deployment of whatever weapon is CRUCIAL.
2. Shot placement RULES.
3. Reasonably powerful, well constructed flat/broad nosed large caliber projectiles of good sectional density that can penetrate thick skin/fur, fat, muscle crushing thru large bone and keep going deep and long while holing together & creating massive tissue damage/wound channel, which may "miss" brain & spinal cord, STILL slow down the animal for "MORE TIME" to make that effectively aimed "kill shot".
4. Don't hunt/fish/hike/camp alone in Grizzly/Brownie country...have others along with you armed with various firearms and bear spray.(or run very slow & not showered for days...just kidding)
5.Go out & move about in groups at least 2, preferably 3 or 4.
6.Make noise.
7.Avoid A.M.A.P., areas where bears hang out, ( often not possible... realized).

 

[tundraotto]

Just get your M4 and be happy. Why are you drawing this out? You want to love the slugs out of an M4 - GREAT - just get it already.

 

[16n69]

Yep!

 

[16n69]

Just get your M4 and be happy. Why are you drawing this out? You want to love the slugs out of an M4 - GREAT - just get it already.

Got it today...had given up on it and was out looking for a .458 SOCOM...there it was all of a sudden, in a shop I frequent often.

 

[16n69]

I place more value on those who have actually killed critters have to say. Living in Alaska does not make one an expert. Although there's a guy on RugerForum who believes he is because his son killed one small bear with a 20ga slug. Which is statistically meaningless. You don't have to quote KodiakBeer, we've been around the block a time or two.

PS, I never said slugs wouldn't work. The question was which was better, a 12ga slug or a big bore rifle and the answer is that the big bore rifle wins every time.



From the article:
"They indeed found two slugs and said that they were buried side by side just under the hide on the far side."

You actually do a very good job of illustrating my point. TWO of the three shots fired did NOT fully penetrate. Note, this is not a full frontal shot but a double lung shot with no heavy bone encountered. Illustrating perfectly that these slugs are not very good penetrators. The heavy big bore rifle loads I would recommend for bear would be guaranteed to exit on a lung-shot buffalo. Whether shoulders are encountered or not. These loads are proven on larger and tougher game than grizzlies and will penetrate 5-6ft of tough critter like Cape buffalo. Even heavy sixgun loads will penetrate better than your beloved Black Magic.

Save it ...??? You just don't get it?
Haven't you been listening to those there...
Real charge...REAL close...little chance...no matter WHAT projectile or gun, BEAR wins.
AVOID & live.
Carry ANYTHING that steps out fast and plows deep...anything, does not matter at pt. blank range.

BTW...bought the M4 H2O today...ordered the Marlin 1895SBL 45-70 last week, should be in this week too.
I will take either w/confidence and see which I shoot better over time?
End of story...thanks to all !

 

[saturno_v]

You actually do a very good job of illustrating my point. TWO of the three shots fired did NOT fully penetrate. Note, this is not a full frontal shot but a double lung shot with no heavy bone encountered. Illustrating perfectly that these slugs are not very good penetrators. The heavy big bore rifle loads I would recommend for bear would be guaranteed to exit on a lung-shot buffalo. Whether shoulders are encountered or not. These loads are proven on larger and tougher game than grizzlies and will penetrate 5-6ft of tough critter like Cape buffalo. Even heavy sixgun loads will penetrate better than your beloved Black Magic.

Craig

Frankly I don't know how can you say that I proved your point....first of all according to the story the first two shots were fired at about 90 yards.......the Black Magic loses velocity and energy very very rapidly due to the horrendous aerodynamics...at 100 yards it retains less than 1/3 of the original energy.....

Second, these shots were found at the far side.....if these shots were in trajectory with the vitals or the CNS they definitely qualify as plenty penetration in my book.

If in a charge situation a bear is not stopped by one of these slugs it has nothing to do with their penetration capabilities and everything to do with countless other potential factors.

At charge distance, a Black Magic slug would probably literally split the skull of a brownie in half.....it did with a very big cow.....

Finally, if you think you are better armed with a 44 Mag than a shottie loaded with these slugs, more power to you....I take my Mossberg 500 over my S&W 29 for such task.....

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

I've owned and shot a Marlin 45-70 for over 30 years. It's a good round that can be used for a number of game applications at ranges of 100 yards and under. The problem with the 45-70 is the recoil generated in a relatively light weight (9lb) rifle. Rapid follow up shots with a 45-70 are difficult for an average size person.

When I could still shoot the gun regularly (I can't now because of medical reasons) I used to practice rapid fire with a full magazine. I can tell you that getting the gun back on target cannot be done rapidly because of the muzzle rise on the rifle. Jacking a full magazine load through the gun will leave you with a bruised shoulder, a headache, and a smile on your face from the recoil.

Conversely, I regularly shoot full magazine loads from my FN SLP - even with 3-inch shells and slugs with no problem - because of the gun's recoil management. Follow up shots with the FN are far easier than with the 45-70 as the gas operated action plus SureCycle recoil system I had installed in the SLP reduce the felt recoil to a level where the gun can be easily kept on target for rapid follow up shots.

To me, that would be a real consideration in this application. I am not advocating one approach over the other as I have never shot or tested the Brenneke round.

I know the massive damage the 45-70 can generate, and if the projected encounter with a bear is over about 30 yards, that would be my choice. Under 30 yards becomes problematic as bears are fast for short distances and multiple shots are going to be needed. In that scenario, I personally would rather rely on a well tested semi-auto shotgun as rapid fire of mulitple rounds will be far easier.

That being said, I would want to test the 12-gage with the Brenneke slugs under a number of conditions before making the choice to use a shotgun rather than a large bore rifle.

 

[CraigC]

You just don't get it?

Really? How much effort had you put into this subject before you started this thread? Please, big bores have been my passion for most of my life. Grow up and go shoot something.

Frankly I don't know how can you say that I proved your point....

Well, if you think that not getting full penetration on a broadside lung-shot buffalo, without encountering any heavy bone is "enough penetration", go forth and be merry.


Seriously, who is comfortable with "good enough" when your life is on the line???

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

You just don't get it?

Really? How much effort had you put into this subject before you started this thread? Please, big bores have been my passion for most of my life. Grow up and go shoot something.



Quote:
Frankly I don't know how can you say that I proved your point....

Well, if you think that not getting full penetration on a broadside lung-shot buffalo, without encountering any heavy bone is "enough penetration", go forth and be merry.


Seriously, who is comfortable with "good enough" when your life is on the line???

This has nothing to do with penetration on cape buffalo. I always enjoy the He-Man shooting threads with so much speculatium that there's a market shortage. You know, why not just defer to a .416 Rigby for every shooting situation? In fact, lets go beyond that. Why not always take a .50 BMG? I mean if proven stopping power is the single criteria - well, there you go...

I would NOT want to bet my life on a single shot with a short distance bear charge - don't care what your past experience is or the round. I would always bet that at least one follow up shot will be needed - but, that's just me.

There's also the problem of portability and handling. While large bore rifles provide the maximum stopping power, the problem then becomes carrying it and firing repetative shots - making using something like the .50 BMG problematic for all but a select few. Having carried a .338 Winchester Magnum for days on a couple of different hunts, schlepping a heavy rifle around in the field is a PITA. IF a lighter weight weapon is usable - that would be my choice

So far, we have a lot of speculation with little, if any, real information past unrelated experiences and theory-based conclusions.

Bears are not cape buffalos, elephants or rhinos - they're totally different and the round that is applicable for African big game may not be needed or even desirable in a completely different situation.

For me, I'd be looking at three things that need to be balanced to make the best choice for use with bears: stopping power, gun portability (size and weight), and rapid follow up shots.

I've found this interesting enough that I've just ordered a case of the Brenneke 3-inch Black Magic slugs. Hopefully, over the next month or so, I'll be able to confect enough test scenarios for the round that, at least for myself, will be able to make some type of performance-based conclusions as to the potential effectiveness of the round at short ranges (30 yards and under) on potentially hard to stop game animals.

 

[CraigC]

I always enjoy the He-Man shooting threads...

Looks to me like this is a serious discussion with very little or no macho-man rhetoric. That is, at least it was until your silly .50BMG reference.

You know, why not just defer to a .416 Rigby for every shooting situation?

Silliness like this adds nothing to the thread but conflict.

This has nothing to do with penetration on cape buffalo.

There's also the problem of portability and handling. While large bore rifles provide the maximum stopping power, the problem then becomes carrying it and firing repetative shots...

See, if you had actually read what you quoted, you would know that the "buffalo" statement was in reference to an article on hunting American bison with Black Magic slugs, not Cape buffalo. You would also know that the rifle in question, which is in the THREAD TITLE, is lighter and handier than your average 12ga shotgun. I guess some folks can't be bothered with reading the whole thread before throwing in their two cents.

 

[chad1043]

How much did you end up paying for the M4? I have seen numbers around 1700...

 

[saturno_v]

Craig


Next time you need to butcher a cow or a large pig, shoot it from 20-30 yards with a Brenneke BB and see for yourself what happens....shoulder bone or head......


In the story there was no mention at all if some bone was encountered by these shots....

 

[16n69]

Really? How much effort had you put into this subject before you started this thread? Please, big bores have been my passion for most of my life. Grow up and go shoot something.

>"Grow up and go shoot something. "

I left combat shooting 30 yrs. ago, bought a Weatherby bolt action in .300 and began deer & elk hunting here in NV. I have "shot" plenty...just new to big bears / dangerous game.
YOU, however, seem to provide most of your opinions from ballistic charts & a Big Game hunting book...you live in TN., where probably the most dangerous game you have is a Country Music fan that has been banned from the Grand Ole Opry...?

>"How much effort had you put into this subject before you started this thread?

...uhhh, and quite a bit of "effort" which is why I knew to ask about a lever in 45-70 ( your beloved heavy bullet with hi-sectional density...with Garrett, Buffalo Bore, Grizzly, Cor-Bon & Double Tap...loads in mind...) VS. SG with Brenneke, Dixie, Dduplek hi-tech mad penetrating slugs.
ALSO...read many accounts, like those from Kodiakbeer & others, of how the REAL Brown Bear attack goes down...in dense wet woods...not hunting the "Big Five" on the African Plain with plenty of yardage to shoot!

"Really? How much effort had you put into this subject before you started this thread?"
So YES, some effort there !

 

[16n69]

How much did you end up paying for the M4? I have seen numbers around 1700...

$1700. for NEW H2O...not likely? NOT just any "M4"...read up on it, self lubricating loves to run dry, can leave it in the stream overnight and still fire it.
For a black or camo...maybe, I have seen H2O's go for $2700-3300. lately !!! (Sick).
List is $2399. and I would have been glad to pay that since that orders are 180 days B.O.
...and this years "limited allotment" is nearing or at the end...
but as it was I paid $2079. @ Discount FireArms here in Vegas...brand new in the box. came in on Tuesday got it yesterday!
Owner ordered it 6 months ago at the gun show.


http://www.benelliusa.com/shotguns/benelli-m4.php

 

[CraigC]

Next time you need to butcher a cow or a large pig, shoot it from 20-30 yards with a Brenneke BB and see for yourself what happens....shoulder bone or head......

Unfortunately, butchers require them to walk into the shop or they do not process the meat. Now, I don't mind skinning a few deer through the course of a season but our last bull went 2100lbs. Don't think I'm up for that job.

...you live in TN., where probably the most dangerous game you have is a Country Music fan that has been banned from the Grand Ole Opry...?

Statements like this are sooooo silly they are hardly even worth replying to. Especially twice in the same thread. I'm sorry but living in Tennessee doesn't preclude one from know, well, virtually anything as much as simply living in Alaska doesn't make one an expert in killing bears. Killing bears makes one an expert on killing bears.

...hunting here in NV...

And so this qualifies YOU to discredit me, how exactly???

YOU, however, seem to provide most of your opinions from ballistic charts & a Big Game hunting book...

I base my opinion on the experience of others. Which to me is a damn sight better than your internet legends, goofy perception and wishful thinking. I freely invite anybody to prove me wrong. However, as usual, you guys who think shotgun slugs strike like the hammer of Thor never seem to provide proof of anything at all. The "proof" you do provide, such as the lung shot buffalo, actually proves MY point.

ALSO...read many accounts, like those from Kodiakbeer & others

What accounts? KodiakBeer got mauled, that hardly makes him an expert on what it takes to kill bears. Do you really think that his choice is superior strictly because 'he' thinks it is? Is this what constitutes evidence to you guys?

...not hunting the "Big Five" on the African Plain with plenty of yardage to shoot!

Careful, your ignorance is shining here.


The bottom line is that this thread is nothing more than mental masturbation. Your mind was made up before you ever posted it and it's obvious that you won't be swayed by the facts. I'm not here to tell you what you want to hear and so here we are. Let us know how many bears you kill with that thing.


You have received some good advice in this thread though, even if you choose to ignore it. Why you chose to single me out I have no idea:
"I've seen first hand how devestating the Garretts are in 45-70 on Whitetail and hogs. These things just dont stop going, penetration is superb. A few years ago I shot a 200 lbs buck quartering towards me with the 540g and it broke the nearside shoulder , through the gut, shattered the pelvic bone, exited and went through a small poplar tree. Not discounting a huge 12 ga. slug, but I doubt the slug will penetrate half as much."

"45-70 for sure."

"Slugs have proven to be poor performers....Of those 2 the 45-70 is the better choice"

"1895gbl or similar in 45-70 is pretty hard to beat...lots more firepower in a much smaller package."

"So, I know the 12ga will "work". Even with "foster" style slugs... But, given the situation, I'd prefer the .45/70 or .375..... As they penetrate better and KICK LESS......allowing faster follow-up shots..."

" rifle is the only wilderness tool that can do it all tho - hunt AND defense and I would find a 30-06 to a .375 about perfect for such chores, in the real world."

"The 45-70 has killed the big 5 in Africa. Penetration with modern hard cast loads is 5-6 feet. In its lower powered original forum it eradicated the American buffalo.

I'm sure the 12 gauge has merits but it really does not compare to the 45-70 for killing large dangerous game."

 

[16n69]

Really? How much effort had you put into this subject before you started this thread? Please, big bores have been my passion for most of my life. Grow up and go shoot something.



Well, if you think that not getting full penetration on a broadside lung-shot buffalo, without encountering any heavy bone is "enough penetration", go forth and be merry.


Seriously, who is comfortable with "good enough" when your life is on the line???

Ahh ...Craig, anothe REAL life experience with the wonderful SG & Brennek...

"Re: Shotgun slugs vs bears - 01/29/10 07:01 AM
Quote:
I would like to know how many of you shotgunners have stopped a charging bear with a shotgun!

I have. It was a DLP kill.

I've done three DLPs in the last 8 years. Two were done with a shotgun loaded with Brennekes and one was done with a .375.
The Brennekes passed through like a hardcast bullet and the bears just flopped out on the ground and died.

The other two guys in the department probably have a couple kills apiece all with Brennekes.

I have had to go crawling around in the alder bushes several times for bears, and never once have I ever doubted my abilities or the gun.
Posted by: xxclaro

"As a point of fact, one of the most famous BROWN BEAR guides over on the Kamchatka Peninsula uses a bone stock model 12 Winchester 12 bore with plain old Foster slugs and has killed more bears than any of us will ever see."
Posted by: ColdCase1984


http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth.../printthread/Board/34/main/286668/type/thread

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth.../printthread/Board/34/main/286668/type/thread

Re: Shotgun slugs vs bears - 01/29/10 05:53 PM
Thanks for the reply Steve, it's always good to get some reassurance from someone who been there/done that.
I still plan to do the testing, just for curiosity sake and to see what the differences will be.

Some nice photos of bears decimated by Brenneke slugs...seem to kill as good as ANY hardcast bullet....dead is DEAD!

Re: Shotgun slugs vs bears - 02/01/10 02:04 PM

"The only slug that I'd use and/or recomened for big Bears is the wide heat treated hard cast slugs by Dixe Slug in Old Town Florida http://www.dixieslugs.com/index.html

At the Linebaugh seminar in Jackson, Ms. a few years back and I got to witness the Terminator slug in action and it is impressive.

My 416 Rigby with a Federal factory load ammo with te 400 grain Nosler Partition was shot into the same media and pentrated 30" and left about a 1" diameter wound, the Terminator slug which is 730 grains and .730 diametor made ofr rifled slug barrels) pentrated 29" and blew a wound channel nearly 4" in diameter

I would use a Terminator slug with total confidence and I can't say that about other slugs"

"Re: Shotgun slugs vs bears - 06/02/10 01:07 AM
Originally Posted By: jwp475


"Don't confuse oridnary slugs with the very heavy hard cast slugs from Dixie Slugs, there is no comparison.

Dixie's biggest customer is the US Coast Guard, because the Dixie is the only slug that will penetrate the bulk head doors on the ships they sometimes have to board

The penetration and the wound channel is vastly larger, longer than conventional slugs which re designed primarily for use on White Tail Deer."


JWP475:

"You are right about Dixie Slugs.

Many people can't seem to grasp the raw power and penetration of a Two Ounce .73 caliber hard cast heat treated bullet when fired at 1200 fps from a firearm designed for rapid target engagement at defensive ranges. Maybe it is the label "shotgun" that prevents the association with short range power and penetration more than equal to .416 Rigby (400 grain Partition) at short range.

If these same .73 caliber bullets were loaded in a brass case..."

Ralph McLaney

07-11-2010, 03:21 #27
Snowman92D
Senior Member

Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 2,547
"Check out Brenneke's at www.brennekeusa.com and I think you'll have an answer to your questions that is extremely well documented in the field. Especially taking various factors like commercial availability, price, accuracy and terminal performance into consideration.

The Brenneke 3-inch-magnum "Black Magic" is superbly accurate in any 12-gauge I've tried it from, if you have the ability to take the recoil. I've gotten sub-four-inch groups at 100 yards repeatedly with that load.

A better way to go, in my opinion, is the 2 and 3/4-inch Brenneke "Green Lightning" and "Special Forces Short Magnum". If anything, they're both a shade more accurate than the 3-inch Black Magic and both have tremendous power and penetration.

The Brenneke folks tell me that, other than the "Special Force Short Magnum" having a bright red coating...and the "Green Lightning" having an emerald green coating...they're exactly the same projectile, powder charge and alloy hardness. The Special Forces version is marketed to LE for hard target jobs, like at vehicle checkpoints, and the Green Lightning version is marketed to hunters who need really deep penetration.

If you wanna rip up hard targets, either will make you smile, plus the 2 and 3/4-inch will cycle through 3-inch shotgun chambers without a bobble while 3-inch shells sometimes bind up. My experience but YMMV.

I know a guy in the Alaska wildlife biology dept who has used Brenneke's 12-gauge 2 and 3/4-inch original "Classic Magnum" (which is what Alaska troopers currently use) and more recently the slightly heavier Green Lightning slug on more large "problem" bears and moose than anyone I know. Both do adequately with usually a couple good hits needed...but he gives the edge to the Green Lightning saying he's frequently gotten through-and-through broadside penetration on large animals. He does his shooting at short range, like 30 yards or so, but it has to work for him in his job, and he recommended the Brenneke's to me."
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1239270&page=2

 

[Redlg155]

I was walking through the woods the other day and saw Grizzbuffelephrhino. At my feet lay a shotgun loaded with Brennekes and a 45-70 loaded with hard cast bullets. I started to panic and didn't know what do. So he ate me. THE END.

 

[chad1043]

Wow. That is a little steep for a 12 gauge.

 

[saturno_v]

Craig


Nobody (well at least myself) is debating here that a rifle is a better tool especially for its versatility (range, accuracy, etc...).

But in a bear protection scenario a shottie with Brenneke BB ior other similarly constructed slugs s perfectly adequate...this is the point you refuse to accept....it does work very well indeed........yes a 458 Lott, WM, 375 H&H, etc, is a better weapon, but this is is beside the point....

 

[16n69]

Craig


Nobody (well at least myself) is debating here that a rifle is a better tool especially for its versatility (range, accuracy, etc...).

But in a bear protection scenario a shottie with Brenneke BB ior other similarly constructed slugs s perfectly adequate...this is the point you refuse to accept....it does work very well indeed........yes a 458 Lott, WM, 375 H&H, etc, is a better weapon, but this is is beside the point....

That about sums is up for me...
I just bought both the Benelli M4 and the Marlin 1895SBL...
...and a couple a thousand rounds of Brenneke & Garretts will tell me which I can deploy faster, put on target faster and shoot more accurately.
That is the gun I will take to the field in AK & MT.

 

[CraigC]

Nobody (well at least myself) is debating here that a rifle is a better tool especially for its versatility (range, accuracy, etc...).

I've contended all along that merely the rifle was better, not that the slug would bounce off. I just don't think they are as effective as others do. Since our pal brought up the Linebaugh seminars, I would point out that the proper big bore rifle and sixgun cartridges penetrated SIGNIFICANTLY deeper than even the massive Terminator slugs. Which is what I've been trying to point out all along. 30" is unimpressive, given the level of recoil and as I said before, is comparable to other bullets of similar sectional density at similar velocities. The 430gr .475 at a mere 1300fps penetrated DOUBLE that. But nobody wants to listen to me because I'm in Tennessee.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/Linebaugh.Penetration.Tests.asp?Order=5

........yes a 458 Lott, WM, 375 H&H, etc, is a better weapon, but this is is beside the point....

No, read the OP again, that is THE WHOLE POINT!!!

 

[saturno_v]

Craig

Can you post some data about the Brenneke BM penetration test if someone ever conducted them?? It would be interesting to read about it.

 

[16n69]

I've contended all along that merely the rifle was better, not that the slug would bounce off. I just don't think they are as effective as others do. Since our pal brought up the Linebaugh seminars, I would point out that the proper big bore rifle and sixgun cartridges penetrated SIGNIFICANTLY deeper than even the massive Terminator slugs. Which is what I've been trying to point out all along. 30" is unimpressive, given the level of recoil and as I said before, is comparable to other bullets of similar sectional density at similar velocities. The 430gr .475 at a mere 1300fps penetrated DOUBLE that. But nobody wants to listen to me because I'm in Tennessee.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/Linebaugh.Penetration.Tests.asp?Order=5



No, read the OP again, that is THE WHOLE POINT!!!

No actually, as the OP, I was trying to discern if most felt that ONE of these two were completely inadequate...
I think saturno_v's point is correct, BOTH will work just fine CONSIDERING...considering the distance in a REAL bear attack...the Brenneke will penetrate 5 ft. from one end of the bear front to back with massive tissue damage...DUE to the "design & shape" of that Black Magic slug. You keep quoting "sectional density" ...well apparently there is much more than just SD #'s going on at pt. blank range.
Shot placement RULES no matter what projectile / caliber...the penetration for both is overkill at close range...the damage to the right spot to either break the bear's charge mechanically or physiologically shut him down is what I will focus on more than caliber & SD, period...if I am lucky (or quick) enough to get a shot or two off.
We have "listened" to you...but you are not listening to those who have been charged, attacked , mauled or just deal often with these critters...they believe the SG w/slug is as good and sometimes better than rifles.
Good enough for me.
I'm done.
Argue on...???

 

[Gordon]

That is one kewl looking SG, I've never seen one before. No doubt them 3" Black Magic slugs will feed well in it after it is broken in and go right thru a big bear up close IMHO. BUT I would see about a bigger charging handle, I have been in a few SG classes where Marines used their issued ones and , well I guess they were early ones. I would carry chamber loaded and safety on if the terrain and plausible threat justified it, but for day in day out packing around when doing stuff I would carry it cruiser ready and fan one up the spout when condition red happened. But that is just safe old me .

 

[saturno_v]

16n69

I would like only to make a point about the original question siding in part with Craig....if I had to buy a weapon specifically for the task we are talking about (so assuming I do not own already an appropriate weapon) I would go for the Marlin....simply I'm a rifle guy, you get the option of a 200 yards hunting shot if you need to and I already own a shottie....

If you already own a shotgun (pump or a reliable auto) buying a rifle for this purpose (again, short distance defense) is totally unnecessary.....but, you know, you always need a new gun in your collection.....

P.S.

If I remember correctly, I believe that one of the advantage of the Brenneke BM other than the large caliber and the sharp shoulder is the fact (again, this is what I heard) that the alloy this slug is made of is much harder even of the usual hardcast rifle bullets.