Asherdan
Member
You need to go find that magical gun rack that has all the good ones!
Marlin QC problems and the Guide Gun?
- Thread starter AethelstanAegen
- Start date
- Status
Abel
Member
Oh, but everything is fine.
Too funny.
OP
OP
AethelstanAegen
Member
The hooey is because Jeff56 has long demonstrated that he likes to get into arguments with people on this forum, so I long ago learned to ignore him. I have decided for sure to not pick up a Marlin Guide Gun until I hear the QC issues are actually resolved (and Jeff56, despite whatever fantasy world you're living, it's clear Marlin is having QC issues). I may look into the Rossi lever in .45/70 but no one seems to have at the moment (so other rifles on the desired list will take precedence).
quietman
Member
It's common to say that you only hear about the bad after a purchase. Not what I was talking about. If you notice, I was talking about existing Marlin owners going into a store to buy another gun.
Peruse MO forum and you'll find a bunch of them.
As for going down a row of guns in a store, I'd be curious as to what the serial numbers were. As DPris pointed out, there has been a continuous slide in Marlin quality. Mostly since Freedom Group purchased them. (which fits with his time frame of quality slipping). Lot's of info on how the production philosophy changed after Remington took over from both ex Marlin engineers and employees at Marlin Owners.
How bad is it? The moderators at MO created a rant forum that you have to be a registered member to see because they didn't want to be accused of bad mouthing Marlin.
It's easy to blow it off if you haven't been around people seeing what's going on.
I kept track of people that decided to buy a new Marlin Express rifle that were already on the forum so it wouldn't be a case of only hearing from someone joining to complain.
This means the person made a decision, bought a rifle, then reported the results after the purchase. With a ME rifle 92 serial numbers it was running about 1 in 3 being so bad they had to go back to the factory with the 338. The 308 wasn't too bad. With the 91 series it's been OVER 50%. And the 308MX problems jumped to close to the 338 problems.
Some got their 91 serial number replaced with a new "Remlin" rifle made in Ilion. None of the Remlin replacements have been of good quality. In fact, 2 were so bad, the owners sent them back and requested a refund.
Several people have had their rifles at the Remington repair facility for more than 6 months. A couple for almost a year. Can't get a repair date.
And DPris, usually does not mean always. And hand selected does not mean customizing or being worked over before mailing out, it means grabbing the best looking, smoothest operating one out of a set of production rifles.
To Jeff56. There have been a couple minor issues with the semi auto rimfires, but they seem to be no worse in number than before. It's the centerfire lever guns that are having most of the issues. Curious what the first 2 digits of the serial number on your 3 marlins were.
Peruse MO forum and you'll find a bunch of them.
As for going down a row of guns in a store, I'd be curious as to what the serial numbers were. As DPris pointed out, there has been a continuous slide in Marlin quality. Mostly since Freedom Group purchased them. (which fits with his time frame of quality slipping). Lot's of info on how the production philosophy changed after Remington took over from both ex Marlin engineers and employees at Marlin Owners.
How bad is it? The moderators at MO created a rant forum that you have to be a registered member to see because they didn't want to be accused of bad mouthing Marlin.
It's easy to blow it off if you haven't been around people seeing what's going on.
I kept track of people that decided to buy a new Marlin Express rifle that were already on the forum so it wouldn't be a case of only hearing from someone joining to complain.
This means the person made a decision, bought a rifle, then reported the results after the purchase. With a ME rifle 92 serial numbers it was running about 1 in 3 being so bad they had to go back to the factory with the 338. The 308 wasn't too bad. With the 91 series it's been OVER 50%. And the 308MX problems jumped to close to the 338 problems.
Some got their 91 serial number replaced with a new "Remlin" rifle made in Ilion. None of the Remlin replacements have been of good quality. In fact, 2 were so bad, the owners sent them back and requested a refund.
Several people have had their rifles at the Remington repair facility for more than 6 months. A couple for almost a year. Can't get a repair date.
And DPris, usually does not mean always. And hand selected does not mean customizing or being worked over before mailing out, it means grabbing the best looking, smoothest operating one out of a set of production rifles.
To Jeff56. There have been a couple minor issues with the semi auto rimfires, but they seem to be no worse in number than before. It's the centerfire lever guns that are having most of the issues. Curious what the first 2 digits of the serial number on your 3 marlins were.
The problem listening to Jeff56 is that he changes his mind every week. Just a month or two ago he was on here telling us of all the problems he'd had with his Marlins, and that 3 of his 3 rimfires were broken at the time. Then he tried to use Marlins customer support, and got treated horribly. After posting online for everyone to see, he finally got a call from someone higher up willing to help him. Now, after they helped him, suddenly Marlin isn't having any quality issues, and that he has never had any "problems like that" with them.
I'm glad he got taken care of, but it should have been taken care of the first time he called and he shouldn't have had to post online about it to get it taken care of. This seems similar to how Bushnell operates. They offer horrible service to many, and then when someone posts online about it, it seems like it's often that a rep contacts them and works out something with them. This is great, but what about the guys who don't post online, or have time to sit there fussing on the phone until they finally get a supervisor to call back? I just don't think you should have to jump through the hoops they are making you, and the product should have worked in the first place.
A member of another forum I'm on is this way about Remingtons. He refuses to admit that they have any quality issues, or customer service issues. He claims everything else is junk. He bought a Marlin recently and had many of the same issues that everyone posts about, so now he has changed his tune to how Marlin's quality is horrible, but he insists it's not Remingtons fault, and that Remington is going to fix Marlins quality issues. I fail to see how people can be this naive, and I hope they don't truly believe this stuff.
I'm glad he got taken care of, but it should have been taken care of the first time he called and he shouldn't have had to post online about it to get it taken care of. This seems similar to how Bushnell operates. They offer horrible service to many, and then when someone posts online about it, it seems like it's often that a rep contacts them and works out something with them. This is great, but what about the guys who don't post online, or have time to sit there fussing on the phone until they finally get a supervisor to call back? I just don't think you should have to jump through the hoops they are making you, and the product should have worked in the first place.
A member of another forum I'm on is this way about Remingtons. He refuses to admit that they have any quality issues, or customer service issues. He claims everything else is junk. He bought a Marlin recently and had many of the same issues that everyone posts about, so now he has changed his tune to how Marlin's quality is horrible, but he insists it's not Remingtons fault, and that Remington is going to fix Marlins quality issues. I fail to see how people can be this naive, and I hope they don't truly believe this stuff.
BTW anyone that wants to see Jeff56's opinion on Marlin a couple of months ago check out this thread.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=602940
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=602940
Abel
Member
Jeff56 wrote:
That there is funny stuff, I don't keer who ya are.
That there is funny stuff, I don't keer who ya are.
1895GS - Canted front sight - fixed with Ultra Dot.
Most screw heads buggered up.
Wood to metal fit sucks!
Very "crunchy" lever action. Dry cycled about 300 times and got a bit better.
At least I can use it with the Ultra Dot. I can see the front sight off to the right of the barrel center line thru the Ultra Dot.
I did not send it back because I was afraid of what I might get back in return!
Most screw heads buggered up.
Wood to metal fit sucks!
Very "crunchy" lever action. Dry cycled about 300 times and got a bit better.
At least I can use it with the Ultra Dot. I can see the front sight off to the right of the barrel center line thru the Ultra Dot.
I did not send it back because I was afraid of what I might get back in return!
Quietman,
I agree with you on the rest of your points, but still not on the hand selected.
In 21 years of getting review samples, I've gotten several guns from several makers that were so bad they were returned & the articles cancelled.
I'm not talking about customizing or being worked over, either.
That includes Remington (2), Marlin (1), Smith & Wesson (2), Nighthawk (1), ArmaLite (2), Chaparral (1), Rock River (1), and so on.
Others have come through here with minor, but obvious, irregularities that should have been caught at the factory before going out to anybody, writer or customer, but weren't bad enough to derail the article completely.
This "handpicked writer's sample" stuff may occur, but it's far from the norm in my personal experience.
Denis
I agree with you on the rest of your points, but still not on the hand selected.
In 21 years of getting review samples, I've gotten several guns from several makers that were so bad they were returned & the articles cancelled.
I'm not talking about customizing or being worked over, either.
That includes Remington (2), Marlin (1), Smith & Wesson (2), Nighthawk (1), ArmaLite (2), Chaparral (1), Rock River (1), and so on.
Others have come through here with minor, but obvious, irregularities that should have been caught at the factory before going out to anybody, writer or customer, but weren't bad enough to derail the article completely.
This "handpicked writer's sample" stuff may occur, but it's far from the norm in my personal experience.
Denis
quietman
Member
That's ok DPris, we can agree that we disagree and move on
I own a 338MX that had to go back to the factory twice before the move. I wound up "talking" to the service manager through e-mail. Once the plant was moved and he was laid off, he told me things he wouldn't say before.
My rifle went back the first time because it would not feed rounds from the magazine. It would jam every time. I got it back and it fed easily, but after about 15 rounds, it took 2 hands to eject the spent casing. Contacted them, and back it went again.
The manager had been the one that worked on it the first time. He apologized profusely and installed a big loop lever for free that I wanted to have installed. After Marlin moved told me Remington had changed the procedure in the shop. Prior to the FG purchase he said it was common practice to put as much as an entire box of ammo through a rifle that had been worked on before returning it to the owner. Remington came in and told them they were to limit their testing to 3-5 rounds. If he'd been under old rules, he'd have found the other problem before sending it back the first time.
He also told me that Remington changed the test firing of new rifles at Marlin from 4-5 rounds to ONE round. So no more roughing in the sight alignment. No more finding cycling problems or sight issues. Just stick a round in, pull the trigger and shove it in a box.
This was one of many changes instituted by Remington's "Six Sigma" program to improve efficiency, but all at the price of quality.
I own a 338MX that had to go back to the factory twice before the move. I wound up "talking" to the service manager through e-mail. Once the plant was moved and he was laid off, he told me things he wouldn't say before.
My rifle went back the first time because it would not feed rounds from the magazine. It would jam every time. I got it back and it fed easily, but after about 15 rounds, it took 2 hands to eject the spent casing. Contacted them, and back it went again.
The manager had been the one that worked on it the first time. He apologized profusely and installed a big loop lever for free that I wanted to have installed. After Marlin moved told me Remington had changed the procedure in the shop. Prior to the FG purchase he said it was common practice to put as much as an entire box of ammo through a rifle that had been worked on before returning it to the owner. Remington came in and told them they were to limit their testing to 3-5 rounds. If he'd been under old rules, he'd have found the other problem before sending it back the first time.
He also told me that Remington changed the test firing of new rifles at Marlin from 4-5 rounds to ONE round. So no more roughing in the sight alignment. No more finding cycling problems or sight issues. Just stick a round in, pull the trigger and shove it in a box.
This was one of many changes instituted by Remington's "Six Sigma" program to improve efficiency, but all at the price of quality.
Last edited:
DenaliPark
member
Ooop's, I just purchased a Marlin 1895GBL 45/70...Are these on the damn list, and what are the major issues I need to look for, exactly?
quietman
Member
Common issues
1. Canted sights
2. Cycling issues- numerous causes seen in this. From gritty levers to hammers not aligned properly.
3. Wood to metal fit. You don't want a sloppy fit on a 45/70 or the recoil will cause the stock to shift and cause flyers on a regular basis.
4. Make sure you don't have an "extra" dovetail in the bottom of the barrel. Remington tried pushing some guide guns out the door using barrels cut down from a normal 1895. The dovetail slot for the hanger you attach the end cap to is in a different position. So Remlin just cut a new dovetail and the original dovetail could be seen in front of the forend. Supposedly, most of these were sent back by the distributors with a "What Are You Thinking?" message to Remlin. Some got through because a couple people at MO got one (and wound up sending it back)
5. Lousy checkering.
Less frequent problems
1. barrel not square to receiver. If this is the case you will not be able to zero it with a receiver mounted sight like a peep or scope. (Shoots up to 4 FEET low at 100 yards with scope elevation maxed out) This has affected the Marlin Express series the most, but has cropped up in a couple other models. (In the ME it would be a very common issue)
2. Firing pin striking way off center.
Rare issues
1. MISSING sights- yes one guy at MO got a new one with a sight missing.
2. A dealer was shipped a new 30-30 with no rifling in the barrel
Issues you can easily fix yourself
1. Heavy trigger pull, some of the new ones are running into the 7-8 lb range. Easily fixed with a visit to Marlin owners gunsmithing section or a Wild West Happy Trigger.
2. Poorly cut barrel channel putting too much pressure on one side of the barrel (This is an issue that pops up with some rifles going way back, I fixed a 70's model with this issue for a friend). Takes a couple of dowels and some sandpaper to fix.
1. Canted sights
2. Cycling issues- numerous causes seen in this. From gritty levers to hammers not aligned properly.
3. Wood to metal fit. You don't want a sloppy fit on a 45/70 or the recoil will cause the stock to shift and cause flyers on a regular basis.
4. Make sure you don't have an "extra" dovetail in the bottom of the barrel. Remington tried pushing some guide guns out the door using barrels cut down from a normal 1895. The dovetail slot for the hanger you attach the end cap to is in a different position. So Remlin just cut a new dovetail and the original dovetail could be seen in front of the forend. Supposedly, most of these were sent back by the distributors with a "What Are You Thinking?" message to Remlin. Some got through because a couple people at MO got one (and wound up sending it back)
5. Lousy checkering.
Less frequent problems
1. barrel not square to receiver. If this is the case you will not be able to zero it with a receiver mounted sight like a peep or scope. (Shoots up to 4 FEET low at 100 yards with scope elevation maxed out) This has affected the Marlin Express series the most, but has cropped up in a couple other models. (In the ME it would be a very common issue)
2. Firing pin striking way off center.
Rare issues
1. MISSING sights- yes one guy at MO got a new one with a sight missing.
2. A dealer was shipped a new 30-30 with no rifling in the barrel
Issues you can easily fix yourself
1. Heavy trigger pull, some of the new ones are running into the 7-8 lb range. Easily fixed with a visit to Marlin owners gunsmithing section or a Wild West Happy Trigger.
2. Poorly cut barrel channel putting too much pressure on one side of the barrel (This is an issue that pops up with some rifles going way back, I fixed a 70's model with this issue for a friend). Takes a couple of dowels and some sandpaper to fix.
Last edited:
OP
OP
AethelstanAegen
Member
It really is too bad. For a long time Marlin had a great record for quality but that is clearly over with for now. Those are some serious errors for which there is really no excuse except indifference to customers by the company. I hope after the shut down they'll turn things around.
DenaliPark
member
So who's handling their warranty issues? They've laid off their entire production staff, that sounds a lot like they are closing down for good!
DenaliPark
member
Newbies? You just joined up six months previously, you're a newbie!
Gordon
Member
"I've gotten several guns from several makers that were so bad they were returned & the articles cancelled."
Why I cancelled all my gun mag subscriptions. I don't consider that honest journalism.
Isn't the parent company that owns Rem. et al a company that has a history of liquidation? Just saying.. Maybe we can make adeal with China for more loans if we move gun production over there, Norinco used to make some decent stuff!
Why I cancelled all my gun mag subscriptions. I don't consider that honest journalism.
Isn't the parent company that owns Rem. et al a company that has a history of liquidation? Just saying.. Maybe we can make adeal with China for more loans if we move gun production over there, Norinco used to make some decent stuff!
DenaliPark
member
What I'd like to know, is who is handling warranty issues? Apparently Marlin is out of business, must be Remington..."I've gotten several guns from several makers that were so bad they were returned & the articles cancelled."
Why I cancelled all my gun mag subscriptions. I don't consider that honest journalism.
Isn't the parent company that owns Rem. et al a company that has a history of liquidation? Just saying.. Maybe we can make adeal with China for more loans if we move gun production over there, Norinco used to make some decent stuff!
OP
OP
AethelstanAegen
Member
Jeff56, you're not going to impress with me with your Stat 101 knowledge of statistics. I'm very familiar with statistics and have taken years of classes...so you didn't dazzle me with the coin toss example. The fact that I would spend $500 on a gun and be flipping a coin at all on quality (regardless of how biased the result may be to one side or the other) just doesn't sit well with me. I'm not saying every Marlin is a piece of junk, but there's no doubt that they've been having some greater than usual problems with their QC. I'll be happy to buy one in the future once it seems like things are running normally again but until then, I have other firearms I'm interested in buying that don't carry as a great a chance of getting a dud.
Gordon,
Not to contribute unduly to a side excursion into gunmag bashing, but regardless of your feelings the fact remains that print space is extremely valuable, and editors very simply will not waste it in writing up a POS.
If a given gun is totally unworkable, the article's just cancelled. If it has the odd flaw here or there, that's life & it's not enough to remove the gun from a projected issue.
There's nothing dishonest about it whatever.
But, you have my permission to never read another gun magazine in your entire life.
And now- back to the subject at hand.
Denis
Not to contribute unduly to a side excursion into gunmag bashing, but regardless of your feelings the fact remains that print space is extremely valuable, and editors very simply will not waste it in writing up a POS.
If a given gun is totally unworkable, the article's just cancelled. If it has the odd flaw here or there, that's life & it's not enough to remove the gun from a projected issue.
There's nothing dishonest about it whatever.
But, you have my permission to never read another gun magazine in your entire life.
And now- back to the subject at hand.
Denis
I think your post a few months ago saying that all three of your Marlins were broken was enough evidence for me where their quality is.
The problem is no one can believe anything you say because your story changes monthly if not weekly. It's not that I want to doubt you, but you are acting like everyone else that has had bad experiences with Marlins, is lying, when you yourself had problems with all 3 of yours a few months ago, and now are saying that they have been great and have good quality, and that anyone who doubts the quality is just spreading rumors they know nothing about.
I'm a big Marlin fan, but the quality seems to have taken a steep decline since Remington took them over. This doesn't surprise me either, since Remington quality has been declining for several years now. I hoped they wouldn't do the same to Marlin, but I can't say I didn't expect it.
The problem is no one can believe anything you say because your story changes monthly if not weekly. It's not that I want to doubt you, but you are acting like everyone else that has had bad experiences with Marlins, is lying, when you yourself had problems with all 3 of yours a few months ago, and now are saying that they have been great and have good quality, and that anyone who doubts the quality is just spreading rumors they know nothing about.
I'm a big Marlin fan, but the quality seems to have taken a steep decline since Remington took them over. This doesn't surprise me either, since Remington quality has been declining for several years now. I hoped they wouldn't do the same to Marlin, but I can't say I didn't expect it.
OP
OP
AethelstanAegen
Member
Jeff56, I'm not going to argue with you over the stats (and yes there are flaws in the sample you collected and I don't think I'm smarter than you but I do think you underestimated everyone else's intelligence here by thinking you were going to dazzle us with a small sample and the "magical" word statistics) and I'm very glad that in your area you've been able to find good Marlins. I'm looking in my area to see if I can find a new one. I'm certainly not going to buy one online, sight unseen as the risk of a nightmare gun is too high for me. I don't think anyone was saying every Marlin gun is crap, they were just pointing out there have been terrible foul-ups recently and so the odds of getting a dud are much higher than before.
I understand what you're saying though, that often problems are blown out of proportion on the internet because you hear about the 10 guns that went wrong but not the 1000s that were spot on. That said the nature of the problems seems far more wide spread than a few repeated instances and Marlin itself has shut down production to deal with the QC issues. I hope they succeed and once their back up and running, I'll be glad to purchase one and let people know Marlin is the bees-knees, until then, I'm going to buy something else on my wish list. In the future though, express your opinion but don't take it as a personal attack. You've derailed many threads in the past with that. No one's ever going to give you a prize for being right or winning the thread battle on the internet. Enjoy your nicely functioning Marlins, I hope to join you as a proud Marlin owner in the future, but I don't see that happening right now unless I can find a used or nice example in my area (which doesn't happen much here).
Mods: Please close the thread, I'm the original OP and my question has been answered and the thread is spiralling into an ego battle (which we don't need on THR). Thanks!
I understand what you're saying though, that often problems are blown out of proportion on the internet because you hear about the 10 guns that went wrong but not the 1000s that were spot on. That said the nature of the problems seems far more wide spread than a few repeated instances and Marlin itself has shut down production to deal with the QC issues. I hope they succeed and once their back up and running, I'll be glad to purchase one and let people know Marlin is the bees-knees, until then, I'm going to buy something else on my wish list. In the future though, express your opinion but don't take it as a personal attack. You've derailed many threads in the past with that. No one's ever going to give you a prize for being right or winning the thread battle on the internet. Enjoy your nicely functioning Marlins, I hope to join you as a proud Marlin owner in the future, but I don't see that happening right now unless I can find a used or nice example in my area (which doesn't happen much here).
Mods: Please close the thread, I'm the original OP and my question has been answered and the thread is spiralling into an ego battle (which we don't need on THR). Thanks!
Asherdan
Member
Well, all I have to add from my limited understanding of statistics is that my chances of getting a new 1894CB 45LC are now zero. So are my chances of getting a poor one, so I got that going for me.
See, it's one of the thirteen lever action models they aren't producing for the rest of this year.
Also, it would be good to keep in mind that the situation with Marlin's rimfire, center fire bolt and lever action lines are different. While the rimfire and centerire bolt production seems to be doing OK, the leveractions are the segment having issues. In discussion it would pay to remember those distinctions.
See, it's one of the thirteen lever action models they aren't producing for the rest of this year.
Also, it would be good to keep in mind that the situation with Marlin's rimfire, center fire bolt and lever action lines are different. While the rimfire and centerire bolt production seems to be doing OK, the leveractions are the segment having issues. In discussion it would pay to remember those distinctions.
OP
OP
AethelstanAegen
Member
Asherdan, is right, it does seem to be limited to the leveractions and I suspect it's only the centerfire lever guns. Unfortunately, the rifle I've been hoping for is one of those leveractions. I frankly am glad they've shut down production for the rest of the year to correct the problem. I'm guessing they'll come out the other end with better trained staff and top notch leveractions again.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Amen! This has been pathetic. Wish for once in the big wide errornet we'd learn to say, "This is what I saw," and let the next guy say what HE saw, and accept that there are many points of data.
Arguing that your point of data is more data-ful than someone else's point of data makes us look kinda stupid.
- Status
