Massad Ayoob's book
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Darth Ruger
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That statement was made by Rockstar. I already made the disclaimer that his comments weren't included in my last post, because his post wasn't there when I was making my reply.FPrice said:
I already said that one poster (the one quoted here) wouldn't trust Ayoob's opinion, but didn't give a reason.
Doesn't Ayoob write numerous articles each month? Not to mention the books he's published. If he's not invovled in gunfights each month, how do you think he comes up with all the scenarios he writes about? Like this poster said, by creating 'what if' scenarios, and also by researching past incidents in which he wasn't involved in order to draw conclusions for his articles. Also, you left out the other sentence that went along with the one you quoted, which gives the man his fair credit and puts it in a more proper context:
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Possibly. I never denied that or said anything denigrating about him or his personal experiences.
I've never been a moderator here, but I do have quite a bit of experience moderating another very active forum, so I do know what the job is like, although I'm not really sure what that has to do with the subject matter of this thread.
Tomcat1066
Member
Am I the only one who thinks it's funny that on this thread, there are those who count the fact that Mas is only a part time police officer as a negative, then another thread that actually mocks police officers who feel they are the qualified ones? People who actually admit that WE are often more trained that the police. Maybe it's just me, but it seems a little ironic. I know they aren't the same thing, but it still strikes me as funny.
As for Massad Ayoob's experience, I'll listen to him like I listen to anyone elses advice. Give it a shot and if it doesn't work, try something else. As for stuff dealing with shootings legal aspects, I've talked to LEOs I know as well as attorneys. They generally back up what Mas suggests. Most say it's a bit much, but not necessarily a bad way to cover your tail.
So what if Mas isn't an attorney. He doesn't pretend to be. Part of his advice after a shooting is to get an attorney. In some states, it's great advice, in others it's probably not as necessary depending on the situation. That sounds, at least to me, like the words of a man who has seen people who knew they were right get screwed. Maybe that's just me though.
No instructor out there will make everyone happy with their advice. Shoot, one instructor who's been mention in this thread will never get a dime of my money since half of his writings are bashing everyone else's teachings. If you don't like Mas, don't read him. But there's no need to bash him either. NO lessons out there are a waste of time, even if they are bad. They can always serve as a "what not to do"
Tom
As for Massad Ayoob's experience, I'll listen to him like I listen to anyone elses advice. Give it a shot and if it doesn't work, try something else. As for stuff dealing with shootings legal aspects, I've talked to LEOs I know as well as attorneys. They generally back up what Mas suggests. Most say it's a bit much, but not necessarily a bad way to cover your tail.
So what if Mas isn't an attorney. He doesn't pretend to be. Part of his advice after a shooting is to get an attorney. In some states, it's great advice, in others it's probably not as necessary depending on the situation. That sounds, at least to me, like the words of a man who has seen people who knew they were right get screwed. Maybe that's just me though.
No instructor out there will make everyone happy with their advice. Shoot, one instructor who's been mention in this thread will never get a dime of my money since half of his writings are bashing everyone else's teachings. If you don't like Mas, don't read him. But there's no need to bash him either. NO lessons out there are a waste of time, even if they are bad. They can always serve as a "what not to do"
Tom
ctdonath
Member
Groan. More Mas bashing.
I'll put in that, in private conversation, another head of a major shooting school depicts Mas as pretty wierd ... but then insists that LFI-I is an absolute must for anyone carrying a handgun.
I've been following Mas-bashing threads for many years. The best his detractors can come up with are legitimate differences of opinion which Mas himself acknowledges; there isn't necessarily a best answer to everything. Any case where Mas is accused of being wrong usually boils down to a misunderstanding of what he said.
That Mas has a solid 9+ page resume and has been an in-demand author, speaker, expert witness and teacher for decades indicates he might actually know something about the subject; paying customers do not continue by the thousands for years on end if the material is demonstrably wrong.
BTW, Rockstar, I've been around Mas after he's had a few - that's one of the neatest times to listen to him: relaxed and talking about what fascinates him - a very interesting and educational experience.
As to the original question:
When drawing a gun, sometimes you'll shoot it, sometimes you'll just show it - which to do will be abundantly clear to you if you choose to not be stupid.
I'll put in that, in private conversation, another head of a major shooting school depicts Mas as pretty wierd ... but then insists that LFI-I is an absolute must for anyone carrying a handgun.
I've been following Mas-bashing threads for many years. The best his detractors can come up with are legitimate differences of opinion which Mas himself acknowledges; there isn't necessarily a best answer to everything. Any case where Mas is accused of being wrong usually boils down to a misunderstanding of what he said.
That Mas has a solid 9+ page resume and has been an in-demand author, speaker, expert witness and teacher for decades indicates he might actually know something about the subject; paying customers do not continue by the thousands for years on end if the material is demonstrably wrong.
BTW, Rockstar, I've been around Mas after he's had a few - that's one of the neatest times to listen to him: relaxed and talking about what fascinates him - a very interesting and educational experience.
As to the original question:
When drawing a gun, sometimes you'll shoot it, sometimes you'll just show it - which to do will be abundantly clear to you if you choose to not be stupid.
FPrice
Member
If you can't figure it out, then I respectfully suggest that you go back and re-read what was said and think about the tone of some of the posts. And then review the name of this forum, The High Road.
I can't make it plainer than that.
Pilgrim
Member
I guess it is his way of saying that early display of a firearm can indeed defuse a potentially violent situation. On the other hand, a premature display of a firearm may cause the person a great deal of embarrassment if not legal harm.
It works the same way in cop work. Having a service pistol in the hand is a lot faster than drawing the weapon from the holster, and in many situations is tactically sound. On the other hand, drawing the weapon for every situation may result in the officer being reprimanded for drawing too often.
Pilgrim
Nail Shooter
Member
"However, he is primarily a gun rag writer who makes a living selling articles, so it pays him to constantly war-game and "what if" scenarios to come up with additional material to sell."
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Whoever made that statement has not seen Ayoob's shooting schedule. He travels all over the country putting on his shooting classes too.
I've taken one class from him and have no regrets. There were about 30 people in attendance. Nobody outshot the old guy! He is the real deal as far as shooting ability is concerned--I've seen it firsthand.
Yes, his personality and methods of teaching may not always be mainstream. Maybe that made the class a little more interesting.
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Whoever made that statement has not seen Ayoob's shooting schedule. He travels all over the country putting on his shooting classes too.
I've taken one class from him and have no regrets. There were about 30 people in attendance. Nobody outshot the old guy! He is the real deal as far as shooting ability is concerned--I've seen it firsthand.
Yes, his personality and methods of teaching may not always be mainstream. Maybe that made the class a little more interesting.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
As usual with Ayoob's stuff, somebody posts a valid observation (and query in this case) about something in print by Ayoob that doesn't make sense (repeated theme) and the discussion degrades Ayoobianistas fighting on behalf of the honor of Ayoob and Ayoobian Assassins trying to pick it apart!
I am repeatedly amazed by folks who apparently believe a person's reputation (good or bad) determines the validity of their words. The bottom line is that it does not matter if Ayoob is well respected, not respected, is a great shoooter, is a poor shooter, has a resume 9 pages long, uses profanity, is an accepted "expert" witness, is a police chief of a small town reserve force, drinks, doesn't drink, performs and has students perform unsafe blood draining and drug induced acts in one of his courses v. enlightening experiences of blood loss and adrenaline dump shooting, etc. It is stupid. Can't the original question just be addressed?
What I truly don't understand is Preacherman's threat,
In the 3 times I was at Thunder Ranch, I never once heard Clint Smith speak favorably of Ayoob. Generally speaking, Clint Smith failed to speak favorably of nobody by name unless it was a historical comment, but Clint did speak quite critically of several other gun instructors but not by name, but by what they were doing. He did speak of the 'numb nuts stupidity' of a northeastern school's vampire and drug experiments with shooters and real guns. That would be Ayoob's work being criticised. He also spoke of the moronic dictates of those instructors having students stand by targets while the targets were shot by other students, a slam against Ken Hackathorn.
My point here, and well away from the purpose of the thread and hence being the victim of my own complaint, is that reputation, experience, shooting skills, and publications do not justify something as being right or wrong. None of those things determine if the information conveyed was accurate or truthful.
When you attempt to support or refute a person's points based on that person's reputation, experience, shooting skills, etc., then you have nothing of consequence to work with and your arguments are bogus.
REPUTATION AND OTHER IRRELEVANT PARAMETERS DO NOT DETERMINE VALIDITY OF STATEMENTS MADE BY A GIVEN PERSON.
Ayoob and anybody else can be right or wrong regardless of their reputation.
a particular issue as true or false and you do so based on perceptions of the person making a statement about that issue, you have supported nothing.
I personally do not like a lot of Ayoob's work that is in print because it seems to have some very problematic aspects to it and I have denoted several here on THR. However, the idea of picking on the guy because of some stupid rumor of drinking or other such irrelevant aspects is just plain wrong.
If you want to argue salient points, then do so.
So as not to completely assassinate myself in this thread for being off topic...
As for arguing both sides of the point concerning drawing one's gun, it has been a while since I read the book. As I recall, however, drawing can be very stupid or very beneficial and may escalate the situation or de-escalate the situation depending on the dynamics of the situation. It is context that becomes the critical key to whether drawing is in your best interest in regard to personal safety or in your best interest in regard to the legality of drawing the weapon.
I am repeatedly amazed by folks who apparently believe a person's reputation (good or bad) determines the validity of their words. The bottom line is that it does not matter if Ayoob is well respected, not respected, is a great shoooter, is a poor shooter, has a resume 9 pages long, uses profanity, is an accepted "expert" witness, is a police chief of a small town reserve force, drinks, doesn't drink, performs and has students perform unsafe blood draining and drug induced acts in one of his courses v. enlightening experiences of blood loss and adrenaline dump shooting, etc. It is stupid. Can't the original question just be addressed?
What I truly don't understand is Preacherman's threat,
So Ayoob is supposedly highly respected. Why should folks watch what they say about him? What harm will come of speaking unfavorably of Ayoob.
In the 3 times I was at Thunder Ranch, I never once heard Clint Smith speak favorably of Ayoob. Generally speaking, Clint Smith failed to speak favorably of nobody by name unless it was a historical comment, but Clint did speak quite critically of several other gun instructors but not by name, but by what they were doing. He did speak of the 'numb nuts stupidity' of a northeastern school's vampire and drug experiments with shooters and real guns. That would be Ayoob's work being criticised. He also spoke of the moronic dictates of those instructors having students stand by targets while the targets were shot by other students, a slam against Ken Hackathorn.
My point here, and well away from the purpose of the thread and hence being the victim of my own complaint, is that reputation, experience, shooting skills, and publications do not justify something as being right or wrong. None of those things determine if the information conveyed was accurate or truthful.
When you attempt to support or refute a person's points based on that person's reputation, experience, shooting skills, etc., then you have nothing of consequence to work with and your arguments are bogus.
REPUTATION AND OTHER IRRELEVANT PARAMETERS DO NOT DETERMINE VALIDITY OF STATEMENTS MADE BY A GIVEN PERSON.
Ayoob and anybody else can be right or wrong regardless of their reputation.
a particular issue as true or false and you do so based on perceptions of the person making a statement about that issue, you have supported nothing.
I personally do not like a lot of Ayoob's work that is in print because it seems to have some very problematic aspects to it and I have denoted several here on THR. However, the idea of picking on the guy because of some stupid rumor of drinking or other such irrelevant aspects is just plain wrong.
If you want to argue salient points, then do so.
So as not to completely assassinate myself in this thread for being off topic...
As for arguing both sides of the point concerning drawing one's gun, it has been a while since I read the book. As I recall, however, drawing can be very stupid or very beneficial and may escalate the situation or de-escalate the situation depending on the dynamics of the situation. It is context that becomes the critical key to whether drawing is in your best interest in regard to personal safety or in your best interest in regard to the legality of drawing the weapon.
ctdonath
Member
They do, however, indicate that criticism and dismissal should be arrived at much more slowly.
FPrice
Member
Thanks for finally showing up.
Generally the discussion "degrades" when someone decides to try to insult Ayoob instead of sticking to the point in question.
It was until this was posted:
ctdonath
Member
Great. From Mas-bashing to Cooper-bashing.
I've studied under both. Niether is worthy of such rank insulting.
Detractors, the name of this web-board is ... ?
I've studied under both. Niether is worthy of such rank insulting.
Detractors, the name of this web-board is ... ?
GoBrush
Member
Guys Guys Guys
I only read about half of the thread and feel like
ing. The discussion about Ayoob has gotten away from the real question hear.OK here we go back on track.
1. You should NEVER pull your CCW unless you are justified in using deadly force. That does not mean you will or must fire it means you are justified in using deadly force.
2. If you break rule #1 you will most likely end up with a brandishing charge best case senerio in court or prison worst case.
3. Yes many armed encounters are foiled with the sight of a CCW but rule number 1 MUST apply.
4. Some people get confussed and say that Police officers use there weapons as a show of force. Well that my friends is the difference between Law Enforcement and a CCW holder they are justified in "showing" there weapons as a show of force and are ready if the situation esculates. As a CCW holder we are ONLY Justified to use said weapon (depending on local) to defend ourselves or others against DEADLY FORCE Period end of story.
We ARE NOT JUSTIFIED unless rule #1 exsists to Show our weapon, Threaten with our weapon, show our weapon to our buddies in public, change ammo, pick our nose with the hammer or any thing else unless we are justified in the use of deadly force.
As a point of claification if you do pull your CCW you must be able to articulate why you feared for your life or life of another before the Deadly Force Issue will be resolved by Mr. Prosecutor/ judge / jury
Wow now I feel better
FPrice
Member
GoBrush,
You should because you have made several very good points. The only thing I would add (from past and current posts) is that if you ever have to draw your firearm and not use it, you had better either report the encounter to the local police or insure that you can vanish. The potential consequences of a bad guy deciding to report your actions and have the police come looking for you are too great to risk.
Gee, we had a great exchange with only one neutral mention of a famous instructor and no bashing.
Isn't civil discourse wonderful???
You should because you have made several very good points. The only thing I would add (from past and current posts) is that if you ever have to draw your firearm and not use it, you had better either report the encounter to the local police or insure that you can vanish. The potential consequences of a bad guy deciding to report your actions and have the police come looking for you are too great to risk.
Gee, we had a great exchange with only one neutral mention of a famous instructor and no bashing.
Isn't civil discourse wonderful???
Elliott's Kin
Member
The book debate
The point of the original question is that advice can be confusing - let's face it, it can be. Advice is not a recipe to apply to a future situation, in books and articles it gets distilled into a format of: "here's what happened - here's how it played out" with a take home message of "you should or shouldn't do what I did or didn't do."
There are two aspects of training - technical where you use cover and concealment and squeeze the trigger; then there's situational - where you must use your head. You'll never encounter the exact situations described by any of your trainers - it's just not going to happen. The situational training can only be done by you in your head - you won't know what you're going to do until something happens but if you haven't considered what you'll do ahead of time then you'll find yourself behind the eight ball when something does happen.
With respect to the "law." There are 50 states, D.C., P.R., V.I. and Federal jurisdictions - not to mention local laws and I can assure you they are all going to be different. You must know your specific statutes. To say that drawing a weapon is a "use of force" is not correct IN OUR STATE - it could be in yours. Pointing a gun a person in our state is an assault "by pointing a gun" (N.C.G.S. 14-34) and it's a misdemeanor.
The point of it all is that the writers can't tell you what to do - they won't be there when you have to do something. Train to be proficient with your weapon and train to be proficient with your brain - you can't afford to ignore either.
The point of the original question is that advice can be confusing - let's face it, it can be. Advice is not a recipe to apply to a future situation, in books and articles it gets distilled into a format of: "here's what happened - here's how it played out" with a take home message of "you should or shouldn't do what I did or didn't do."
There are two aspects of training - technical where you use cover and concealment and squeeze the trigger; then there's situational - where you must use your head. You'll never encounter the exact situations described by any of your trainers - it's just not going to happen. The situational training can only be done by you in your head - you won't know what you're going to do until something happens but if you haven't considered what you'll do ahead of time then you'll find yourself behind the eight ball when something does happen.
With respect to the "law." There are 50 states, D.C., P.R., V.I. and Federal jurisdictions - not to mention local laws and I can assure you they are all going to be different. You must know your specific statutes. To say that drawing a weapon is a "use of force" is not correct IN OUR STATE - it could be in yours. Pointing a gun a person in our state is an assault "by pointing a gun" (N.C.G.S. 14-34) and it's a misdemeanor.
The point of it all is that the writers can't tell you what to do - they won't be there when you have to do something. Train to be proficient with your weapon and train to be proficient with your brain - you can't afford to ignore either.
GoBrush
Member
FPrice said:
Amen Brother
I do agree with your point as well about notice to PD
Darth Ruger
Member
- Joined
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Thanks for the free lesson in high moral standards, but you're still missing the point. I'm not going to try anymore, because this thread has been pulled off track too much already.FPrice said:
Thank you. I'm glad somebody got it. That's all I was trying to say in the first place. Just a simple observation, nothing more, as I thought I had made clear in my first post...Double Naught Spy said:
I can't make it plainer than that.Darth Ruger said:
Ok, question regarding disparity of force
When in process or about to be assaulted with fists with no possibility of timely retreat by 2+ individuals of same physical strenght as you, are you allowed to open fire?
Are you required to keep retreating as assault is underway?
When in process or about to be assaulted with fists with no possibility of timely retreat by 2+ individuals of same physical strenght as you, are you allowed to open fire?
Are you required to keep retreating as assault is underway?
Darth Ruger
Member
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Here are a couple of threads about that:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=137964
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=158604
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
One comment about In the Gravest Extreme:
This book was written a long time ago, and was pretty much the first widely read book written for non-LEO's on the legalities of armed self-defense. It started out as a collection of magazine articles that were later published in book form, IIRC.
It still contains a lot of advice that is still relevant today, but some of the advice is now outdated as well. Mas has written more recent works on the topic (I really like the edition of Combat Handgunnery that he authored--hard to find, but well worth the price). So don't judge everything he's ever written by In the Gravest Extreme, even though it was quite a watershed work.
Ayoob also explicitly says that there is no "one size fits all" solution to every question. In some of his writings, he mentions "Ayoob's Law of Necessary Hypocrisy" or somesuch, which states something to the effect that while he may tell you something that seems to be a 100% applicable rule, you may well find yourself in a situation in which that rule doesn't apply and the best course of action would be the exact opposite of what he recommended.
I think that even if you disagree with him on a particular topic, Mas does a great job of getting you to THINK about the topic. For example, he likes heavy DAO's on liability grounds, I don't, but one thing his writings on the topic DID do was to get me to think about why I prefer DA/SA's and be able to elaborate WHY I made the choice, if necessary.
This book was written a long time ago, and was pretty much the first widely read book written for non-LEO's on the legalities of armed self-defense. It started out as a collection of magazine articles that were later published in book form, IIRC.
It still contains a lot of advice that is still relevant today, but some of the advice is now outdated as well. Mas has written more recent works on the topic (I really like the edition of Combat Handgunnery that he authored--hard to find, but well worth the price). So don't judge everything he's ever written by In the Gravest Extreme, even though it was quite a watershed work.
Ayoob also explicitly says that there is no "one size fits all" solution to every question. In some of his writings, he mentions "Ayoob's Law of Necessary Hypocrisy" or somesuch, which states something to the effect that while he may tell you something that seems to be a 100% applicable rule, you may well find yourself in a situation in which that rule doesn't apply and the best course of action would be the exact opposite of what he recommended.
I think that even if you disagree with him on a particular topic, Mas does a great job of getting you to THINK about the topic. For example, he likes heavy DAO's on liability grounds, I don't, but one thing his writings on the topic DID do was to get me to think about why I prefer DA/SA's and be able to elaborate WHY I made the choice, if necessary.
GoBrush
Member
ka50 said:
ka50:
You may use deadly force only if you can articulate why you believed it necessary to use said force and the Judge / Jury / County Attorney believe you were Justified.
Please read my original post above.
ka50:
Several nice posters have given reasonable answers to your original question. My CCW license instructor kept repeating "It depends on the totality of the circumstances." GoBrush gave several good guidelines, which are more or less (depending on locale & ToC) correct.
(Notice all those conditionals/weasel words in my above writings? That is the nature of such things.)
WRT 2+ guys offering violence with fists, deadly force is deadly force. If you feel your life is in danger, it doesn't matter if they are using pistols, beer bottles, or chop sticks & the same applies to your response: shotgun, pistol, or PC monitor to the head.
I have not read all of Ayoob's writings, but I have found many to be useful...others not so much. I would suggest reading several authors/"experts" and using your own head. Oh, and avoid drinking the koolaid of any one author or expert. All of us are fallible, to include the most tacticool and best marketed.
Several nice posters have given reasonable answers to your original question. My CCW license instructor kept repeating "It depends on the totality of the circumstances." GoBrush gave several good guidelines, which are more or less (depending on locale & ToC) correct.
(Notice all those conditionals/weasel words in my above writings? That is the nature of such things.)
WRT 2+ guys offering violence with fists, deadly force is deadly force. If you feel your life is in danger, it doesn't matter if they are using pistols, beer bottles, or chop sticks & the same applies to your response: shotgun, pistol, or PC monitor to the head.
I have not read all of Ayoob's writings, but I have found many to be useful...others not so much. I would suggest reading several authors/"experts" and using your own head. Oh, and avoid drinking the koolaid of any one author or expert. All of us are fallible, to include the most tacticool and best marketed.
Marty Hayes
Member
Post deleted by original poster...
Last edited:
Marty Hayes,
Check your PMs.
Jeff
Check your PMs.
Jeff
Optimistic Paranoid
Member
Fun2Shoot said:
Ah, Ayoob.
People either love, or hate him, there doesn't seem to be too much middle ground about him.
I've done several classes with him, which should tell you which side of the argument I come down on.
Two things:
1: His LFI 1 class (about 20 hours of range time and 20 hours of classroom time) is NOT 20 hours of rehashing his book, it's about an hour of rehashing his book and 19 hours of stuff that didn't fit in his book.
2: As for the Been There, Done That, I got taken to task once by an elderly neighbor for my modern shooting technique. He was convinced that a Luger, firing ball, and shot one-handed in the classic dueling stance, was the way to go.
Oh, did I mention that he was Finnish, and had survived 6 years of fighting on the Eastern Front using that technique?
In other words, he's got Been There, Done That, Got The T-Shirt out the ying-yang.
Still, I remain sceptical that 9mm ball, fired one handed is the way to go . . .
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