Carlos Cabeza
Member
Well stated 444, my sentiments exactly.
MD - Laurel Man Shoots Suspected Car Thieves, Kills One
- Thread starter Mark Tyson
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TallPine
Member
Stealing cars, apparently ...
seeker_two
Member
If the DA charges him with ANY violation, that would be a travesty to justice and, hopefully, a wake-up call to the community to oust the rat...
If any judge chooses to hear a lawsuit brought by the families of the
criminals against the man, it would be another travesty....
If any judge chooses to hear a lawsuit brought by the families of the
criminals against the man, it would be another travesty....TheeBadOne
Member
What if the shooter used a drop gun?
gun-fucious
Member
i kinda doubt a DC tow truck driver carries a drop gun at 2:30 am
the "weapon" found was a screwdriver
the "weapon" found was a screwdriver
TallPine
Member
That's why we are suppose to leave these things to the police. They are the specialists in those special techniques.
Daniel T
Member
The shooter is a murderer. He statement that he "had had enough" pretty clearly indicates he had already decided to use deadly force before ever confronting the car thieves.
The punishment must fit the crime, and a death sentence is not the punishment for Grand Theft Auto.
The punishment must fit the crime, and a death sentence is not the punishment for Grand Theft Auto.
TallPine
Member
But a death sentence is often the punishment for failing to respond to a LEO's orders to halt, etc ...
But a private citizen cannot act in his/her own behalf, but instead must rely on an agent (LEO or private security guard) to apprehend criminals (at least, whenever they may or may not get there).
TheeBadOne
Member
...and an apple is often compared to an orange.
Carlos Cabeza
Member
Then quit stealin' cars !
RustyHammer
Member
This answers the question of what to do with that old beater pistol in the back of the safe.
"Yes", officer, "that looks like the pistol they had pointed at me." ("He must have wiped the finger prints off before he dropped it?" )
Dead men tell no tales.
"Yes", officer, "that looks like the pistol they had pointed at me." ("He must have wiped the finger prints off before he dropped it?"
)Dead men tell no tales.
MessedUpMike
Member
Hmmm
Could go either way. The hard part will be getting around taking the gun outside in the first place. When I was in the Criminal Justice program in college it was explained that a justifiable shooting was one where the shooter felt his life was in danger. This is how we ended up with a wild west police dept around here. Therefore if he can prove that the theives were a "clear and present danger" then he is justified shooting, the problem is auto theft is not a justification for putting yourself in that sort of danger.
Juries in Md. PG county in particular are notoriously unpredictable. If the DA does charge him (expect that), then we'll have to wait and see.
I know the nieghborhood he was in. I don't blame him for taking a gun outside. As far as to the right or wrong of the shooting I won't guess.
Could go either way. The hard part will be getting around taking the gun outside in the first place. When I was in the Criminal Justice program in college it was explained that a justifiable shooting was one where the shooter felt his life was in danger. This is how we ended up with a wild west police dept around here. Therefore if he can prove that the theives were a "clear and present danger" then he is justified shooting, the problem is auto theft is not a justification for putting yourself in that sort of danger.
Juries in Md. PG county in particular are notoriously unpredictable. If the DA does charge him (expect that), then we'll have to wait and see.
I know the nieghborhood he was in. I don't blame him for taking a gun outside. As far as to the right or wrong of the shooting I won't guess.
243_shooter
Member
But, it is just a car, not worth killing someone over..
If they had managed to take it, at worst he's out $1k, maybe $2k (assuming he had proper insurance, and didn't pay twice what the car was worth when he bought it).
Instead he went out blasting. Now IF HE'S LUCKY he will only wind up owing the lawyers a couple years pay, and not be living in the crowbar hotel. More likely than not he's purchased a one way ticket to a fun filled vacation spot, where he'll likely be the main course.
So when you boil it all down, it's just a car, and he's made some pretty poor decisions.
If I thought for a second my car was worth shooting someone over I'd immediately sell the car, and seek some help..
Come after me or my family, I'll be dialing 357 not 911, come after my car and I'll be dialing allstate thank you very much.
Leo
Your short road to the victim mentality is complete it appears.
In my opinion, right or wrong currently legal wise, a person should have every right to try to prevent a serious $$ property crime such as this. You shouldn't just be able to run out and shoot them (which may be what really happened in this case for all I know...), but if the theives then threatened force on the victim with something even as minor as a screwdriver I say they deserve what they got. You can forget your run and hide at the first sign of criminals junk, they will run wild and rob your ??? blind if you act like that.
If the police showed up and the theives presented a grave danger to them with weapons, especially a gun, the police would be right in using deadly force. I see no difference here... The thief is the one who escalated the situation by attacking the victim or police... The criminal should be the one obligated to run from a confrontation, not the other way around...
I think we should lobby for changing laws in states that say you have zero right to protect your property, that you have to give it to the criminals and go on...
It's not so much that is car is worth killing over, it's that you should have the right to try to stop your car from being stolen. And if the response is deadly force from the theives, you should be perfectly legal in protecting your life with deadly force in return...
In my opinion, right or wrong currently legal wise, a person should have every right to try to prevent a serious $$ property crime such as this. You shouldn't just be able to run out and shoot them (which may be what really happened in this case for all I know...), but if the theives then threatened force on the victim with something even as minor as a screwdriver I say they deserve what they got. You can forget your run and hide at the first sign of criminals junk, they will run wild and rob your ??? blind if you act like that.
If the police showed up and the theives presented a grave danger to them with weapons, especially a gun, the police would be right in using deadly force. I see no difference here... The thief is the one who escalated the situation by attacking the victim or police... The criminal should be the one obligated to run from a confrontation, not the other way around...
I think we should lobby for changing laws in states that say you have zero right to protect your property, that you have to give it to the criminals and go on...
It's not so much that is car is worth killing over, it's that you should have the right to try to stop your car from being stolen. And if the response is deadly force from the theives, you should be perfectly legal in protecting your life with deadly force in return...
243_shooter
Member
?
The point I was trying to make is he's going to be far worse off now, then if he'd just let them take the car. It's a rough old world, and in many instances the law's are just plain wrong. But winding up in the slammer over a car just isn't worth it.
I wouldn't try to argue if he was right, or wrong, I'm sure 90% of the pertinent details are missing from the story.
I agree 110%. Unfortunately that's not the way it works in most places (if this would have happend here in NY it could easily go either way, but he would stand a high probability of being charged, and convicted).. In todays world you also have the bottom feeding lawyers to contend with, who regardless of the law will swoop in to try and scrounge some money for their pocket. If he's lucky by the time the car is rusted away in some junkyard he will have this whole mess straightend out, without spending any time in jail.
So in the end, it's just a car.
greyhound
Member
I don't think in this day and age we have the right to shoot someone for stealing cars, but every time I see this post I keep thinking that at one time in this country, we hung people for stealing horses. I am not really sure how that relates, but it keeps popping into my mind......
FPrice
Member
greyhound...
"I keep thinking that at one time in this country, we hung people for stealing horses. I am not really sure how that relates, but it keeps popping into my mind..."
I suspect that this was because your horse was VERY imporetant to your life at that time and losing your horse could seriously impact your life.
"I keep thinking that at one time in this country, we hung people for stealing horses. I am not really sure how that relates, but it keeps popping into my mind..."
I suspect that this was because your horse was VERY imporetant to your life at that time and losing your horse could seriously impact your life.
JohnBT
Member
Md. Man Who Shot At Youths Is a Felon
By Fredrick Kunkle and Nurith C. Aisenman
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, September 5, 2003; Page B01
A Laurel man who said he fatally shot a teenager to prevent the theft of his sport-utility vehicle early Wednesday has a felony conviction record from the 1980s, according to court documents, prompting authorities to focus part of their investigation on whether he violated Maryland law by possessing a handgun.
Prince George's County State's Attorney Glenn F. Ivey said yesterday that authorities are continuing to investigate the death of Ernest Sockwell, 15, and the wounding of one of his companions, a 23-year-old man. The SUV owner, Glenn R. Ellis, 37, said in an interview that he was in his apartment about 2:20 a.m. Wednesday when an alarm alerted him that his SUV was being tampered with. He said he rushed outside and opened fire on four young men, two of whom were in the vehicle.
Ellis, a tow truck driver for the D.C. Department of Public Works, was convicted of assault in 1985 and armed robbery in 1987, according to Prince George's Circuit Court records. Maryland law prohibits convicted felons from possessing firearms. Although authorities said Wednesday that the 9mm Ruger used in the shootings was legally registered to Ellis, they said yesterday that the gun is registered to a woman with whom Ellis shares the Laurel apartment.
As prosecutors decide what charges, if any, to file in the shootings, Ellis's criminal history will be "a significant factor," Ivey said. "It would be relevant to our consideration."
In 1985, Ellis was convicted of assault with intent to maim and assault with intent to disable in the nonfatal stabbings of his then-girlfriend and her mother, according to court records. Ellis pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity. A panel of mental health professionals concluded that Ellis had "a mixed personality disorder" but said he did not suffer from a mental illness that would make him legally not responsible for the stabbings. A judge sentenced him to five years in prison but suspended all but 90 days of the term.
In 1987, while he was on probation, Ellis and an accomplice were arrested and charged with robbing a Hechinger store in Langley Park at gunpoint, according to court records. Ellis pleaded guilty to armed robbery and was sentenced to eight years in prison.
Reached by telephone yesterday, Ellis declined to comment on his criminal record or talk about the gun used in Wednesday's shootings. "What I did, I went to jail for," he said. "I did my time, and that was it."
Ellis was questioned at length by homicide detectives Wednesday, then released pending the outcome of the investigation. In an interview after he returned home, Ellis said his 1999 Chevrolet Tahoe is equipped with a device that alerts a security company by wireless signal if the vehicle is tampered with. The company then pages Ellis.
He said that after receiving a page early Wednesday, he picked up a gun, hurried outside and opened fire on the four young men. He said that "things just went crazy" and that he regretted the shootings. Sockwell collapsed to the pavement while two of his companions, including the 23-year-old man who was critically wounded, rode away in the Tahoe, police said. A fourth person fled on foot. The two who were uninjured were later questioned by police and released pending the outcome of the investigation.
Several friends and other supporters of Ellis at the Fox Rest apartments, where the shootings occurred, said the complex is a frequent target of thieves and vandals. They said they sympathize with Ellis, who said in an interview Wednesday that he opened fire because he "had had enough."
But neighbor Lisa Jones, 45, a mother of four, said Sockwell did not deserve to be shot. "You don't come out of your house and use a firearm," Jones said. "You can get a car back, but you can't get a life back."
Under Maryland law, a person can be justified in the use of deadly force if acting on a reasonable belief that he or she is in immediate danger of death or serious bodily harm. The law also conditionally recognizes a person's right to take a life in defense of the home. But even that principle has been narrowed, said Paul F. Kemp, a former Montgomery County prosecutor now in private practice as a defense lawyer. "In the modern day and age, this is not Dodge City," he said.
"It strikes a chord, these kinds of cases," said Robert L. Dean, a former Montgomery prosecutor who is now deputy state's attorney in Prince George's. Dean, who declined to comment about the specifics of Ellis's case, said he saw some parallels between him and a Bethesda jeweler who killed two people after a holdup.
The jeweler, Vahag Babayan, emptied a .38-caliber semiautomatic at the men as they sat in a getaway car outside Babayan's Prestige Jewelers in the 7700 block of Wisconsin Avenue on the afternoon of June 16, 1990. The trial stirred passionate debate over the boundaries between self-defense and vigilantism.
At his December 1990 trial, Babayan testified that he regretted shooting the men but that he felt his actions were justified. The courtroom erupted in applause after a jury cleared Babayan of all charges, including second-degree murder.
The Babayan case "needed to be tried" because he had taken the law into his own hands, Dean said.
"To me, it pointed out how resorting to violence like this has a potential to do a lot of social damage," he said.
Staff writers Jamie Stockwell and Hamil R. Harris contributed to this report.
© 2003 The Washington Post Company
By Fredrick Kunkle and Nurith C. Aisenman
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, September 5, 2003; Page B01
A Laurel man who said he fatally shot a teenager to prevent the theft of his sport-utility vehicle early Wednesday has a felony conviction record from the 1980s, according to court documents, prompting authorities to focus part of their investigation on whether he violated Maryland law by possessing a handgun.
Prince George's County State's Attorney Glenn F. Ivey said yesterday that authorities are continuing to investigate the death of Ernest Sockwell, 15, and the wounding of one of his companions, a 23-year-old man. The SUV owner, Glenn R. Ellis, 37, said in an interview that he was in his apartment about 2:20 a.m. Wednesday when an alarm alerted him that his SUV was being tampered with. He said he rushed outside and opened fire on four young men, two of whom were in the vehicle.
Ellis, a tow truck driver for the D.C. Department of Public Works, was convicted of assault in 1985 and armed robbery in 1987, according to Prince George's Circuit Court records. Maryland law prohibits convicted felons from possessing firearms. Although authorities said Wednesday that the 9mm Ruger used in the shootings was legally registered to Ellis, they said yesterday that the gun is registered to a woman with whom Ellis shares the Laurel apartment.
As prosecutors decide what charges, if any, to file in the shootings, Ellis's criminal history will be "a significant factor," Ivey said. "It would be relevant to our consideration."
In 1985, Ellis was convicted of assault with intent to maim and assault with intent to disable in the nonfatal stabbings of his then-girlfriend and her mother, according to court records. Ellis pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity. A panel of mental health professionals concluded that Ellis had "a mixed personality disorder" but said he did not suffer from a mental illness that would make him legally not responsible for the stabbings. A judge sentenced him to five years in prison but suspended all but 90 days of the term.
In 1987, while he was on probation, Ellis and an accomplice were arrested and charged with robbing a Hechinger store in Langley Park at gunpoint, according to court records. Ellis pleaded guilty to armed robbery and was sentenced to eight years in prison.
Reached by telephone yesterday, Ellis declined to comment on his criminal record or talk about the gun used in Wednesday's shootings. "What I did, I went to jail for," he said. "I did my time, and that was it."
Ellis was questioned at length by homicide detectives Wednesday, then released pending the outcome of the investigation. In an interview after he returned home, Ellis said his 1999 Chevrolet Tahoe is equipped with a device that alerts a security company by wireless signal if the vehicle is tampered with. The company then pages Ellis.
He said that after receiving a page early Wednesday, he picked up a gun, hurried outside and opened fire on the four young men. He said that "things just went crazy" and that he regretted the shootings. Sockwell collapsed to the pavement while two of his companions, including the 23-year-old man who was critically wounded, rode away in the Tahoe, police said. A fourth person fled on foot. The two who were uninjured were later questioned by police and released pending the outcome of the investigation.
Several friends and other supporters of Ellis at the Fox Rest apartments, where the shootings occurred, said the complex is a frequent target of thieves and vandals. They said they sympathize with Ellis, who said in an interview Wednesday that he opened fire because he "had had enough."
But neighbor Lisa Jones, 45, a mother of four, said Sockwell did not deserve to be shot. "You don't come out of your house and use a firearm," Jones said. "You can get a car back, but you can't get a life back."
Under Maryland law, a person can be justified in the use of deadly force if acting on a reasonable belief that he or she is in immediate danger of death or serious bodily harm. The law also conditionally recognizes a person's right to take a life in defense of the home. But even that principle has been narrowed, said Paul F. Kemp, a former Montgomery County prosecutor now in private practice as a defense lawyer. "In the modern day and age, this is not Dodge City," he said.
"It strikes a chord, these kinds of cases," said Robert L. Dean, a former Montgomery prosecutor who is now deputy state's attorney in Prince George's. Dean, who declined to comment about the specifics of Ellis's case, said he saw some parallels between him and a Bethesda jeweler who killed two people after a holdup.
The jeweler, Vahag Babayan, emptied a .38-caliber semiautomatic at the men as they sat in a getaway car outside Babayan's Prestige Jewelers in the 7700 block of Wisconsin Avenue on the afternoon of June 16, 1990. The trial stirred passionate debate over the boundaries between self-defense and vigilantism.
At his December 1990 trial, Babayan testified that he regretted shooting the men but that he felt his actions were justified. The courtroom erupted in applause after a jury cleared Babayan of all charges, including second-degree murder.
The Babayan case "needed to be tried" because he had taken the law into his own hands, Dean said.
"To me, it pointed out how resorting to violence like this has a potential to do a lot of social damage," he said.
Staff writers Jamie Stockwell and Hamil R. Harris contributed to this report.
© 2003 The Washington Post Company
greyhound
Member
Family Copes With Teen's Violent Death
By Sewell Chan
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, September 5, 2003; Page B01
Ernest Sockwell would have turned 16 next Wednesday. Short and husky, he was an avid fan of rapper Pastor Troy, as well as the Green Bay Packers and Washington Wizards. He dreamed of playing quarterback for a high school team, acquaintances said. And though he was too young to have a driver's license, he had an interest in automobiles.
Sockwell's family and friends struggled yesterday to come to grips with the violent end of his life -- a life that revolved around his father's apartment in the impoverished Washington Highlands neighborhood of Southeast Washington.
Prince George's County police say that about 2:30 a.m. Wednesday, Sockwell and three other young men were trying to steal a 1999 Chevrolet Tahoe in Laurel when the SUV's owner emerged from his apartment and opened fire with a 9mm Ruger handgun, killing Sockwell and wounding another youth.
In August 2000, Sockwell was arrested in the District and charged with unauthorized use of a vehicle -- he allegedly was driving it -- and with receiving stolen property, according to juvenile court and social work records. The charges were dropped that November at the request of the city's lawyers, though it is unclear why.
Last October, the records show, Sockwell was detained briefly at the District's Oak Hill Youth Center on a charge of being a juvenile fugitive from justice in Prince George's. Caseworkers with the city's Department of Human Services reported that Sockwell tested positive for drugs and that he told them he regularly smoked marijuana. It was not clear yesterday what charges Sockwell faced in Prince George's.
Sockwell lived in a three-story brick building on Fourth Street SE. He shared a crowded basement apartment with his father, Woodrow Givens, a 57-year-old tour bus driver, and several siblings. The teenager often slept on a love seat in the living room, his legs up on an ottoman.
The building's front door was unlocked yesterday. In the hallway, most of the floor tiles were missing. In the door to Sockwell's home, the knob and lock were gone, a white athletic sock stuffed into the hole.
Givens declined to comment on his son's life and death. He said he had hired a lawyer who advised him against discussing the shooting.
The teenager's half brother, Cedrick Givens, 15, said Sockwell was happy-go-lucky. "He wouldn't even be serious right now," Cedrick Givens said. "He would try to make everybody laugh, in any way possible."
Bob McCray, 62, a handyman in the building, said Sockwell would help him. "To me, Ernie was the picture of a teenager his age," McCray said. "He was never insubordinate. He never talked back. He was never violent."
Although almost 16, Sockwell was still in seventh grade, according to school records. He had just transferred from Johnson Junior High School to the Patricia Roberts Harris Educational Center. Both schools are in Southeast Washington.
McCray said he urged Sockwell this summer to pay more attention to his studies. "He wanted to go back to school, to play football," McCray said. "Ernie had the physique, the intensity and the mind to accomplish that."
McCray and other friends of Sockwell's criticized the self-acknowledged shooter, Glenn R. Ellis. "If he gets away scot-free, he is creating a vigilante effect," McCray said. "If someone violates you, don't take the law into your own hands."
Ellis, 37, a tow truck driver for the District government, said in an interview Wednesday that he regretted the shooting. He was questioned by police for several hours, then released pending the outcome of the investigation.
Kelly Sowell, 18, who lives in an adjacent building, said Sockwell frequently cared for her 3-year-old son. She was planning to buy Sockwell a pair of adidas sneakers for his birthday. She said he did not deserve to die. "He was just there at the wrong time," she said, fighting back tears.
Another neighbor who was friendly with the teenager, Jerome Washington Sr., 46, said Sockwell was easily influenced by other young people. "When you ain't got something, and you want it bad enough and can't afford it," he said, "you're going to go out and take it."
Staff researcher Bobbye Pratt contributed to this report.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Read the last line again.
By Sewell Chan
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, September 5, 2003; Page B01
Ernest Sockwell would have turned 16 next Wednesday. Short and husky, he was an avid fan of rapper Pastor Troy, as well as the Green Bay Packers and Washington Wizards. He dreamed of playing quarterback for a high school team, acquaintances said. And though he was too young to have a driver's license, he had an interest in automobiles.
Sockwell's family and friends struggled yesterday to come to grips with the violent end of his life -- a life that revolved around his father's apartment in the impoverished Washington Highlands neighborhood of Southeast Washington.
Prince George's County police say that about 2:30 a.m. Wednesday, Sockwell and three other young men were trying to steal a 1999 Chevrolet Tahoe in Laurel when the SUV's owner emerged from his apartment and opened fire with a 9mm Ruger handgun, killing Sockwell and wounding another youth.
In August 2000, Sockwell was arrested in the District and charged with unauthorized use of a vehicle -- he allegedly was driving it -- and with receiving stolen property, according to juvenile court and social work records. The charges were dropped that November at the request of the city's lawyers, though it is unclear why.
Last October, the records show, Sockwell was detained briefly at the District's Oak Hill Youth Center on a charge of being a juvenile fugitive from justice in Prince George's. Caseworkers with the city's Department of Human Services reported that Sockwell tested positive for drugs and that he told them he regularly smoked marijuana. It was not clear yesterday what charges Sockwell faced in Prince George's.
Sockwell lived in a three-story brick building on Fourth Street SE. He shared a crowded basement apartment with his father, Woodrow Givens, a 57-year-old tour bus driver, and several siblings. The teenager often slept on a love seat in the living room, his legs up on an ottoman.
The building's front door was unlocked yesterday. In the hallway, most of the floor tiles were missing. In the door to Sockwell's home, the knob and lock were gone, a white athletic sock stuffed into the hole.
Givens declined to comment on his son's life and death. He said he had hired a lawyer who advised him against discussing the shooting.
The teenager's half brother, Cedrick Givens, 15, said Sockwell was happy-go-lucky. "He wouldn't even be serious right now," Cedrick Givens said. "He would try to make everybody laugh, in any way possible."
Bob McCray, 62, a handyman in the building, said Sockwell would help him. "To me, Ernie was the picture of a teenager his age," McCray said. "He was never insubordinate. He never talked back. He was never violent."
Although almost 16, Sockwell was still in seventh grade, according to school records. He had just transferred from Johnson Junior High School to the Patricia Roberts Harris Educational Center. Both schools are in Southeast Washington.
McCray said he urged Sockwell this summer to pay more attention to his studies. "He wanted to go back to school, to play football," McCray said. "Ernie had the physique, the intensity and the mind to accomplish that."
McCray and other friends of Sockwell's criticized the self-acknowledged shooter, Glenn R. Ellis. "If he gets away scot-free, he is creating a vigilante effect," McCray said. "If someone violates you, don't take the law into your own hands."
Ellis, 37, a tow truck driver for the District government, said in an interview Wednesday that he regretted the shooting. He was questioned by police for several hours, then released pending the outcome of the investigation.
Kelly Sowell, 18, who lives in an adjacent building, said Sockwell frequently cared for her 3-year-old son. She was planning to buy Sockwell a pair of adidas sneakers for his birthday. She said he did not deserve to die. "He was just there at the wrong time," she said, fighting back tears.
Another neighbor who was friendly with the teenager, Jerome Washington Sr., 46, said Sockwell was easily influenced by other young people. "When you ain't got something, and you want it bad enough and can't afford it," he said, "you're going to go out and take it."
Staff researcher Bobbye Pratt contributed to this report.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Read the last line again.
Sportcat
Member
Fortunately/ unfortunately looks like the shooter will no go down because he is a convicted felon with a weapon. Can't say I don't agree with his actions. Maybe someday the whole story will come out.
Now the media/ family is portraying this kid-thug as a victim.
Now the media/ family is portraying this kid-thug as a victim.
gun-fucious
Member
TheeBadOne
Member
Sounds like a nice guy. It does bring back the question of who really owned the gun at the scene atributed to the car thief.
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