Mechanical vs Electronic Locks

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D.B. Cooper

D.B. Cooper

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Given the recent fiasco over Liberty Safe company (and I'm not here to discuss that; there has already been one discussion of that event, and that thread has already been locked, so let's just leave it) I'm curious about lock technologies for obvious reasons.

It seems pretty clear to me that any electronic safe lock has the potential for having a secret back door code. Is it possible (or is it likely) that manufacturers have set secret combos on mechanical locks in a similar manner? In other words, can a mechanical lock have two unique combinations-on the company keeps for themselves and one the company gives to the customer?

Is it really an "industry standard" for safe manufacturers (whether that be gun safes or general fire safes or "RSC"-I guess they're all "RSC" type "safes.") to maintain a list of safe serial numbers and combinations? If so, how does one go about obliterating/removing the serial numbers from a safe (I only know of one tag on the back side of my safe, but there may be hidden serial numbers elsewhere.), or how does one go about changing the combination? (Is that a DIY or do you need a locksmith?)

After these recent revelations, it appears that only a mechnical lock mechanism can even be remotely considered "safe."
 
Not a locksmith, but a dial lock could be designed with extra ghost wheels with a different combination that have the same protrusions that match the notches in the spindle (the inner rod that turns) to line up in the same order as when the original combination is entered.

It might work until the original combo is changed unless another mechanical system is designed to reset the ghost wheels when a combo is changed. However, such a backdoor mechanical tool would have been discovered by locksmiths long ago. Although, it might work as a custom one off lock installed on a targeted new safe.

My 3am, can’t sleep answer to your question.
 
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With a mechanical lock, it would be easily visible if there were more than 1 combination that could open the safe.

This would have been better in focus but you should be able to understand how they work.

www.youtube.com

The inner workings of a safe combination/dial lock

This is a Sargent & Greenleaf dial lock. It's not the most modern or sophisticated one you'll see (these are used for teaching safecracking), but it's what y...
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com
 
Lets see how long this one goes, it will get locked as well.

Simple electronic is cheaper to make and more easy to use. Mechanical, anything mechanical is going to be more expensive, and in general more reliable. Then you get into the entire battery issue, can you get in, then in the end of the world talks, will an EMP fry the electric doo dads in there locking your goodies in the safe for all time.

Do your research on lock type put your money down.

I have three different. One electronic, one dial, two on a key.
 
Thousands to tens of thousands of offices store sensitive material in office drawer safes. The mechanical S&G locks came with a change key so when an employee with access to the safe left, the combination could be easily changed.

You do that, and the safe company does not know your new combination.

PS. Always verify the new combination before closing the safe! You can leave the door open, roll the numbers, and determine if the locking mechanism opens. If it does not, you saved your self hundreds of dollars!
 
Have an S&G lock for my freezer, but as yet have not swapped it in.

Not a fan of the OEM electric, albeit of reasonable quality and serviceable.

It is quick and easy.
 
My old safe has a mechanical lock. It also has a key. I'm not sure what the key is for, possibly to change the combination or open the safe. I lost the key years ago so I'm not sure how it works. I contacted the manufacturer with the SN to get another key and they had no record of ever making that safe. Like I said, it's an old safe.

I don't trust programable locks. I would never buy a safe with one.
 
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CoalTrain49 said:
My old safe has a mechanical lock. It also has a key. I'm not sure what the key is for, possibly to change the combination or open the safe. I lost the key years ago so I'm not sure how it works. I contacted the manufacturer with the SN to get another key and they had no record of ever making that safe. Like I said, it's an old safe.
Click to expand...
If it's in the dial, it's to lock it.

You can close the door, throw the lever/bolts, turn the dial back, and lock the dial using the key. It will save you having to redial the combination. It's "field expedient" like if you're going to be home and in and out of your safe, but it's not as secure as spinning the dial. I do it with my vault door when I'm going to be home, but when I leave home, I pull the key and spin the dial.

www.tomziemer.com

Key-Locking Safe Dials - Tom Ziemer

Combination safe locks with key-locking dials: How they work and how to use them properly.
www.tomziemer.com

With this procedure you close the safe and lock it by turning the dial clockwise only about 15 numbers to “0”, then turn the key so the dial won’t turn. Next time, all it takes to unlock the safe is to turn the key back to unlock the dial, turn the dial clockwise 15 numbers, and the safe is unlocked. Simple and easy! However . . .

Relatively intelligent burglars know this trick too. If they find a safe on which the dial has been key-locked, they know there is a pretty good chance that the safe can be opened is just a few seconds. They can turn the key lock with a pick set, a heavy screw driver, or even a key that came with another safe made by the same manufacturer. If the owner is using the “fast open” trick the only other thing to do is turn the dial clockwise. And then empty the safe. That is exactly what happened to a local guy who bought his safe from a box store. He did what the store worker told him to do. The trick cost him over $20,000 that he thought was secure in his safe. To get properly educated about safes, buy your safe from people who really know them, not from a box store or a gun store!
Click to expand...
 
My FLG has a stoutly built case for guns being worked on. Opens with a big warded key. Made in Poland.

I have a dual dial safe.
Run the combination on the dial or keypad.
But when you keypad, you still have to turn the dial to the stop to unlock.
 
Well, not for nothing, I just went to Browning's website and clicked on "replace your key or combination," and they're doing the same thing as Liberty. The link takes you to a form to request your combination based on your safe's serial number, and it appears that this is available regardless of what kind of lock you have. This must really be an "industry standard."
 
I have an old ProtectAll safe I keep important stuff in. It was given to me by a neighbor when I was a student at NNPTC, Orlando while in the Navy. It was an old safe, locked open, that the combination had been lost to and the place that had it just wanted to get rid of it. So my neighbor took it home, opened up the back of the lock in the door and decoded the combination.

I had some troubles getting it to open reliably when he gave it to me, so I opened it up and checked. He was off by one digit on one of the numbers. I was able to easily figure this out by myself without any prior experience with combination locks.

If you open up a mechanical combination lock, it'll be obvious if there's anything shady internally with respect to a "hidden" combination.
 
So I guess the other question is about the serial numbers. It seems like, if all of these companies are storing our combos/codes and searching them by serial number, then the thing to do is destory the serial numbers on the safe itself. Which leads me to the question: other than the tag on the back of my safe, where else on the exterior of the safe is that serial number stamped, engraved, placarded, etc?
 
D.B. Cooper said:
So I guess the other question is about the serial numbers. It seems like, if all of these companies are storing our combos/codes and searching them by serial number, then the thing to do is destory the serial numbers on the safe itself. Which leads me to the question: other than the tag on the back of my safe, where else on the exterior of the safe is that serial number stamped, engraved, placarded, etc?
Click to expand...

Probably nowhere.

At issue here is the fact that the S/N only applies to the lock itself, of course. And those locks can be replaced by any number of other safe locks, of any manufacturer.

EDIT:

It's worth a google search to see what's out there. I've seen a price spread of $50 to $400 on digital safe locks.
 
D.B. Cooper said:
In other words, can a mechanical lock have two unique combinations-on the company keeps for themselves and one the company gives to the customer?
Click to expand...

Unless it isn't clear the answer is no, there are no secret second mechanical lock combinations. We've seen that this is not how mechanical combination locks are constructed. Further, there's no need since a locksmith can open these combination lock safes using their tools and training.
 
Chuck R. said:
If it's in the dial, it's to lock it.

You can close the door, throw the lever/bolts, turn the dial back, and lock the dial using the key. It will save you having to redial the combination. It's "field expedient" like if you're going to be home and in and out of your safe, but it's not as secure as spinning the dial. I do it with my vault door when I'm going to be home, but when I leave home, I pull the key and spin the dial.

www.tomziemer.com

Key-Locking Safe Dials - Tom Ziemer

Combination safe locks with key-locking dials: How they work and how to use them properly.
www.tomziemer.com
Click to expand...


Thanks. I guess I don't really need the key anyway as I'm not in it that often. If I find I need one I'll have a locksmith make one. Safe is a Cannon that I acquired about 30 years ago.
 
D.B. Cooper said:
Well, not for nothing, I just went to Browning's website and clicked on "replace your key or combination," and they're doing the same thing as Liberty. The link takes you to a form to request your combination based on your safe's serial number, and it appears that this is available regardless of what kind of lock you have. This must really be an "industry standard."
Click to expand...
The difference is that if you change it on a mechanical there's likely no other way in. The digital can be programmed with a backdoor in.
 
As a Liberty gun safe owner I am struggling to be outraged. I knew the backdoor existed when I got my safe, it says so in the manual. I appreciated knowing that if I lost my code they could get me into my safe. I never bought my safe to keep law enforcement out I use it to slow down theives and buy me done time in a fire. Law enforcement, if they want it will get in, they have the time and resources to do it. Despite recent revelations nothing has changed that effects my use case. YMMV.
 
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