Meth Laws: More Security Theatre

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Flyboy

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"By criminalizing possession of a substance that is readily manufactured using innocuous everyday products, the government created the illicit labs it is now trying to shut down by criminalizing the sale of those innocuous everyday products."

Drawing the parallel to other things that are "readily manufactured using innocuous everyday products" is left as an exercise to the reader.
Speed Bumps at the Pharmacy
How someone else's meth habit leaves you with a runny nose
Jacob Sullum

At my local drugstore, shelves of cold and allergy medicine have been replaced by merchandise cards hanging from metal rods. If I want to buy one of these remedies, I have to take the corresponding card to the pharmacist's counter, wait in line, show my ID, and sign a register.

This procedure, required by an "emergency order" from Virginia Gov. Mark Warner, is supposed to prevent me from using the pseudoephedrine in products such as Sudafed and Dayquil to cook up a batch of methamphetamine in my garage. If you're not lucky enough to live in a state with similar restrictions, fear not: Under the Combat Meth Act, which Congress is expected to pass soon, you too can be treated like a criminal the next time you have nasal congestion, thereby doing your part to help achieve a drug-free society.

"This legislation is a dagger at the heart of meth manufacturing in America," claims Sen. Jim Talent (R-Mo.), who co-sponsored the meth bill with Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D- Calif.). "If you can't get pseudoephedrine, you can't make meth."

<P]According to the Drug Enforcement Administration, some 80 percent of the illicit meth consumed in the U.S. comes from large-scale Mexican traffickers, who buy their pseudoephedrine in bulk rather than a couple boxes at a time from CVS. Restricting retail access to pseudoephedrine may shift production away from small local labs and toward the big-time meth makers who already account for most
of the supply, but it's not likely to have a noticeable effect on consumption.</P]

<P]Nor is it true that you need pseudoephedrine to make methamphetamine. Other methods use precursors such as ephedrine, methylamine, phenylalanine, and phenyl-2-propanone (which itself can be
synthesized in a variety of ways). So even if the government somehow managed to cut off all access to pseudoephedrine--which making you stand in line at the pharmacy for cold medicine assuredly will not do--the black market would adjust.

Given this reality, putting your favorite decongestant behind the pharmacist's counter is mainly a symbolic act, intended to show that politicians like Jim Talent and Dianne Feinstein care deeply about stopping people from getting high on speed. Evidently they don't care quite so much about the cold and allergy sufferers whom they are forcing to endure the inconvenience and indignity of registering as pseudoephedrine users, or the ones who will have to go without relief if they happen to be afflicted when a pharmacist is not available.

Hard as this collateral damage is to justify, it pales in comparison to that suffered by other innocent victims of the government's war on methamphetamine. Last summer, for instance, state and federal agents arrested 49 convenience store clerks and owners in Georgia on charges that they sold pseudoephedrine and other supplies to informants posing as meth cooks.

The supplies, including matches, charcoal, anti-freeze, coffee filters, aluminum foil, and cat litter, were all perfectly legal. The charges, which carry penalties of up to 25 years in prison as well as fines and asset forfeiture, are based on the doubtful premise that the defendants knew or should have known what the fake customers were pretending to be planning.

All but a few of the defendants are Indian immigrants, and many have a weak grasp of ordinary English, let alone the slang of black-market meth manufacturers. Several said they assumed the guy who bought matches and camping fuel, saying he needed to "finish up a cook," was having a barbecue.

This is the logic of the war on drugs. By criminalizing possession of a substance that is readily manufactured using innocuous everyday products, the government created the illicit labs it is now trying to shut down by criminalizing the sale of those innocuous everyday products. Perhaps recognizing that the lives of most Americans have not been affected by the "meth epidemic," prohibitionists are determined to spread the pain around.

Jacob Sullum is a senior editor at Reason.
 
The supplies, including matches, charcoal, anti-freeze, coffee filters, aluminum foil, and cat litter, were all perfectly legal.

Obviously, all these items need to come under the regulation and oversight of the BATFEMCAFCFAFCL (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, Explosives, Matches, Charcoal, Anti-Freeze, Coffee Filters, Aluminum Foil, & Cat Litter). :rolleyes:
 
There is nearly nothing you cant use to put to a drug or weapon releated use.

Even orange juice rapidly turns into an alcoholic beverage if you leave it at room temperature.

The problem is our government has a nearly insatiable appetite for increasing its own power at any pretense.
 
beerslurpy

Even orange juice rapidly turns into an alcoholic beverage if you leave it at room temperature.


Ah, the memories of hard OJ in high school. Almost everyone did that and some added their own kick to it. If they where caught, they could blame it on the OJ.:rolleyes:

/Good article. I will print it for the people at work that think this cold medicine banning thing is a good idea.
 
I'm serious. I brew beer and nearly anything can be used as yeast food. Some of the guys culture their years in orange juice instead of using malt extract.

And the air is full of yeast. The spontaenously fermented beer will probably have off flavors in it, but it will contain mostly alcohol and OJ. And you can produce good beers with spontaneous fermentation. The belgians have used naturally occurring yeast for centuries to make lambics.
 
Prohibition didn't work before, but it might work if we just try harder.

+1

--
Way I see it, if everthing is banned to alleviate any type of crime, or illegal behavior , along with eventually anything that one does falls under definitions of Felonies - as defined by TPTB.

Who is going to be left to turn off the lights?

History gives us the answers.
 
Reducing access to large volumes of ephridine tabulates has reduced the meth lab problem. You can still buy your tabulates for colds and so forth, you just can't buy five packs at a time.

The labs send out runners and give them $100 (+expenses) for the day to hit stores for supplies. It is really quite amazing to what lengths these people go to to get the ingredients. Meth is a terrible drug that is extremely addictive. In my state, you'll get 8 years in prison for the first offense (manufacture for sale). The combination of ingredients is also considered a "lab".
 
beerslurpy said:
I'm serious. I brew beer and nearly anything can be used as yeast food. Some of the guys culture their years in orange juice instead of using malt extract.

And the air is full of yeast. The spontaenously fermented beer will probably have off flavors in it, but it will contain mostly alcohol and OJ. And you can produce good beers with spontaneous fermentation. The belgians have used naturally occurring yeast for centuries to make lambics.

I saw a documentary about beermaking last week and it showed a "traditional" Belgian brewery where the fermentation vat is left open to the air. The show was very interesting.
 
I/ we all know and realize there is a serious Meth Problem.

Realities:

- Throughout history folks are going to do things to ecape reality and someone is going to make a profit providing good or services for these folks wanting to escape.

- A group of persons with differing viewpoints are going to object to these aforementioned activities.

-Laws will be enacted and those in Law Enforcement are called upon to make Society "feel safe".

-All hell breaks loose.

-Folks inserted the Wedge not only into members of Society - The Wedge is driven deeper into a Crack , between FREEDOM and WE The PEOPLE.

-Drive that Wedge all the way thru, TYRANNY is exposed, FREEDOMS just memories.

Folks have always done what they are going to do not matter what a group of folks "say" or what a "law" says.

Prohibition, Well the Kennedy's made a Family Fortune - I wonder what well known Familes name are making Fortunes in the War On Drugs, and all the the other War On "[]"s.

Now I have allergies, I get congested, I have to sign for decongestants if I want a certain ingredient.

pax brought up an excellent point in another similar thread. What recourse does a mom have when a child bursts an eardrum from lack of decongestants?

Maybe that kids parents are LEO??

Nope TYRANNY is not the answer to Societal Problems.

WE have already , and have for years, laws on the books to deal with matters. Passage of new legislation is a band-aid, feel good right now, get the Society to "feel" better now" fix.

WE still have Whorehouses, You can still Play Poker for money, Get a Cold Beer on a Sunday , or homemade spirits - without the shoe polish bottle as they did during Prohibition.

Kids can still huff gasoline, they can even go to a gas station and buy it without being carded. If they don't die, or lose too many brain cells, they can take a match, and be an arsonists.

We do not need a law to protect kids from buying gas, matches or nothing.

In my state, if I see the commission of a Felony in progress, I can use lethal force to stop it. I can shoot an arsonist.

No banning of gasoline, no banning of anything related to gasoline such as lawnmowers, motorcycles, cars, trucks...
No banning of matches either.

I can shoot the bastard. Society is less one felon. Felon got to escape reality.

Win-Win situation .

Now...medical advances are great, still cannot get a new eardrum for a kid yet.
 
We need to quit punishing everyone because of the POTENTIAL misuse of inanimate objects and focus instead on the punishment of individuals for CRIMINAL ACTIVITY.
 
Even orange juice rapidly turns into an alcoholic beverage if you leave it at room temperature.
I prefer apple cider. Used to have an orchard nearby that made its own fresh pressed apple cidar and it wasn't pasturized. I remember as a kid getting to go in the back (grandfather and the owner were buddies) and drink it fresh from the press, ah good stuff and good memories. Anyway being that it wasn't pasturized it still had the natural yeast from the apples and if left in the fridge long enough started to ferment all on its own without even being opened. Took a little time in the fridge but it was some good stuff. You can make alcohol out of anything, hell water white sugar and a package of yeast will get you alcohol.

Beyond that as to the meth I am all for legalizing it. I'm alright with keeping home labs illegal since if you screw up and mess up a lot but make it legal to produce and no more bad batchs, no more people killing each other over it, no more mixing in god knows what that is going to kill people, etc. And the same goes for all drugs. The only drug's I am in favor of keeping illegal are the one's like PCP that alter someone severly.
 
The crazy thing about these restrictions is the actual fine print.

My kid was sick last week, so I go to the local drugstore for Sudafed.

Childrens Sudafed is on the "restricted" list. I am told that I have to sign for the purchase and that I can't buy more than 16mg total of pseudo ephedrine.

The druggist dutifully notes that the bottle of Sudafed I am buying contains, get this, .36mg of the dangerous substance.

So basically I would have to buy drums of sudafed to get enough of the stuff to do any good to begin with.


I felt much safer knowing that practice was in place to protect me :rolleyes:
 
Sm I couldn't agree more. 22 rimfire do you have stats on this reduction???
I use a Tylenol product which contains this compound. We were purchasing this at Walmart which keeps a computorized record linked to all their stores. She was not allowed to buy some last week and came back from the store somewhat embarrassed from the encounter. I was puzzelled at this so I looked at the quantities and the prescribing info on one of the boxes. Though we were banished from Walmart from any purchases of this we had not exceeded the prescribing info. Come to find out this calculation is on number of boxes. Now in Tennessee there is no consistancy on how this is handeled. Though I have not read the regulations on this. I see no consistancy in its enforcement. I have seen anything from it still on the shelf to the example above. Ephedra is already controlled by the DEA and is classified as a list chemical. You need DEA audit and approval to store Ephedra and its derivative's in bulk form. The DEA has been hot on this for years and frankly initially set their sights on the truck stop Mini white type tablets. I don't take issue with this logic. They are much more easily broke down, cheap, and potent. But what is happening now is ridiculous. Talking with pharmacist's they say it is very difficult to seperate pseudoephedrine from the other ingredients in cold medicine. I have no doubt LE believes it is doing the right thing but the rules have to be made that can be complied with. In Law Enforcement you are no better than the society that supports you. It will be interesting to see how this weeds out.
Jim
 
I don't see what the big deal is.

From what I can tell no one is being "criminalized" by keeping the medicine behind the counter and having to ask the pharmacist for it.

Do you feel like a criminal when you buy condoms or cigarettes? They are behind the counter too.

Most gun stores keep ammo behind the counter. Big deal.

Now, do I think this will actually do anything to reduce Meth production? No. It is just more political masturbation. But I don't see it as a rights violation.
 
Lone_Gunman said:
I don't see what the big deal is.

From what I can tell no one is being "criminalized" by keeping the medicine behind the counter and having to ask the pharmacist for it.

Do you feel like a criminal when you buy condoms or cigarettes? They are behind the counter too.

Not just ask for it, give your name, drivers license #, and signature on a form showing the date and amount purchased.

Anyone ask you to fill out a form showing how many condoms you bought?

Putting it behind the counter is one thing, but this record keeping is over the line.
 
Let's see here.

At some point, a chemistry educated drug addict or seller couldn't get enough "product" to sell or use, so he/she invented this stuff. Now we're supposed to believe that this is a solution? Methinks they'll just move on to a new concoction and the list of controlled ingredients will expand. Mr. Orwell, paging Mr. Orwell. Your nightmare is waiting.
 
Lone gunman I understand your point. Thing is that with this regulation People who were depending on this for breathing issues and believe me many people do no longer can purchase at their leisure nor can some even get the dosage they had become accustom to. Instead of doing this they would have been better off making all this a RX product again instead of a OTC. (Over the Counter). This at least would have placed it back in the hands of the medical proffesionals. I can tell you from experience Pharmacists don't make extra money for this and it is just a burden, and many act like it is. As I said you also do not have the option of determining dosage. They have done that for you. A Government regulated drug that is legal. I don't think never before in history has this happened that a LEA has determined drug dosages. This is not a Schedule I drug nor is the FDA advising on it. Its in the wrong hands for a compound that is so depended upon by law abiding citizens. Whats next asprin?
Jim
 
Criminal law has no place being used to protect a person from their self. I could give a hoot if someone shoots heroin in their basement, so long as the only person endangered is the one who made the decision.

I worry more about the drunk drivers on our roads than the meth heads. Maybe we should ban alc...oh wait. That just made criminals rich, eroded civil liberties, increased violent crime, and promoted corruption in government. Why, golly, just like today's War on Liberty.
 
1911 guy said:
At some point, a chemistry educated drug addict or seller couldn't get enough "product" to sell or use, so he/she invented this stuff. Now we're supposed to believe that this is a solution? Methinks they'll just move on to a new concoction and the list of controlled ingredients will expand. Mr. Orwell, paging Mr. Orwell. Your nightmare is waiting.

Agreed. If anything, we could say that Meth is a result of the more or less successful prosecution of the drug war against cocaine. I've read the effects list, and I'd rather see legalized (and regulated for safety) cocaine.
 
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