Michigan School Shooting

[kwguy]

Hmmm.

All I got from the article was that the kid drew a “disturbing” picture. Very subjective. Any drawing of a gun; or a pop tart eaten into the shape of one, is enough to freak people out today. Kids also draw pictures of planes bombing bad guys, monsters, etc. He also attempted to order ammo online. Kids do all sorts of crap online, in line with their interests. His interest in guns seemed to be encouraged by his parents, as is often the case by many members of this forum. The parents didn’t tell the school they had a pistol at home, and they didn’t search the kid at school (maybe that should have happened when they were sitting in the principals office?). Did they enable him? Maybe. In as much as Lanza’s Mom enabled him by having an AR, or any parent that has a liquor cabinet and then has a vehicle stolen by a kid who then proceeds to kill someone with it, is an enabler. Even if they panicked and attempted to flee because they got scared, that’s still a long way from manslaughter.

That article contains a lot of emotion, and the parents certainly don’t seem to “with it”, or very self aware, but unless they actually encouraged him to do it, I’m not seeing anything else in that article. Fancy scary sounding words like “enabling” and “red flags” sell articles, and allow politicians and lawyers to grandstand, enabling is not the same as “accomplice”, and “red flag” is not the same as “direct threat”. By those metrics, there are thousands of parents that need to be locked up for the crap their kids do.

If the school felt there was such an imminent threat, they certainly have the power to expel or suspend him. It wasn’t until after the shooting, did the parents decide to have a look for the pistol, realize it was gone, and then freaked out. Bad moves and poor choices, but still not manslaughter.

 

[armydog]

This situation is exactly what the liberals have been praying to the heavens to bring them. This prosecutor can't even contain her glee. She's not upset at all that kids were killed in the classroom, she is just happy it was with a gun by a white kid. During the press conference she appeared as if she was in a debate trying to hammer home how horrible the opposition is. lol

All 3 are about to get KR'd in the media.

Like I have told my friends... you can't trust your kid to be around guns unsupervised no matter how good a kid you think they are. It's your damn job not to trust them. And this kid... geez. This is all just a gift to the left.

 

[kwguy]

This situation is exactly what the liberals have been praying to the heavens to bring them. This prosecutor can't even contain her glee. She's not upset at all that kids were killed in the classroom, she is just happy it was with a gun by a white kid. She appeared as if she was in a debate. lol

All 3 are about to get KR'd in the media.

Like I have told my friends... you can't trust your kid to be around guns unsupervised no matter how good a kid you think they are. It's your damn job not to trust them. And this kid... geez. This is all just a gift to the left.

That’s a very good point. Parents today always say things like “kids today are so much smarter than they were in prior generations”...

Nonsense. You can’t trust kids, because they are kids. Putting faith in a kids ability to be rational and reasoned is like putting that faith in a puppy dog. That was the parents biggest mistake. Not being parents, and instead, being “friends”. Their own immaturity is evident in this situation as well, because this has been an ongoing societal systemic problem.

We’re going to lose our gun rights because we, as a society, will eventually deem ourselves too stupid and immature to have them.

 

[The Glockodile]

We’re going to lose our gun rights because we, as a society, will eventually deem ourselves too stupid and immature to have them.

Pretty much...

Lost the "God - given right," or the "Mandate of Heaven."

 

[Atavar]

This is yet another example of why making schools "safe zones" for shooters is a bad idea. Let’s face it, when some sicko decides he wants to shoot people where better than a place where it is guaranteed that law abiding citizens will be unarmed and defenseless.

 

[AlexanderA]

This prosecutor can't even contain her glee. She's not upset at all that kids were killed in the classroom, she is just happy it was with a gun by a white kid. During the press conference she appeared as if she was in a debate trying to hammer home how horrible the opposition is. lol

I don't get that impression of the prosecutor at all. I see her taking great pains not to offend legitimate gun owners.

 

[Hartkopf]

Hmmm... a question as posed elsewhere:

“So in Michigan if YOUR 16yo A student, cheerleader captain, college bound daughter kills a a young pregnant mom and her 4 young tots while shes driving YOUR family mini van…do both YOU and YOUR WIFE get criminally charged and thrown in jail to await trial?”

This case might not fit that analogy perfectly or completely BUT, this is exactly what the anti gunners would like. Come after the family for what the kids do whether the parents could have prevented it or not.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

Hmmm.

All I got from the article was that the kid drew a “disturbing” picture. Very subjective. Any drawing of a gun; or a pop tart eaten into the shape of one, is enough to freak people out today. Kids also draw pictures of planes bombing bad guys, monsters, etc.

Well, the article did say that the pictures were of a handgun with the words "the thoughts won't stop help me" and of a bullet with the words "blood everywhere," which I think everyone will agree is a bit more disturbing, especially from a high school student, than two seven-year-olds eating pop tarts into the shape of a gun and playing cops and robbers at recess. At the very least, two adults were concerned enough about this to send him to the principal, who was concerned enough about this to immediately have the parents brought in.

And his parents didn't say anything at that meeting about having just bought the kid a handgun only days previously.

He also attempted to order ammo online. Kids do all sorts of crap online, in line with their interests. His interest in guns seemed to be encouraged by his parents, as is often the case by many members of this forum. The parents didn’t tell the school they had a pistol at home, and they didn’t search the kid at school (maybe that should have happened when they were sitting in the principals office?). Did they enable him? Maybe. In as much as Lanza’s Mom enabled him by having an AR, or any parent that has a liquor cabinet and then has a vehicle stolen by a kid who then proceeds to kill someone with it, is an enabler. Even if they panicked and attempted to flee because they got scared, that’s still a long way from manslaughter.

These things aren't comparable literally at all.

 

[rabid wombat]

A question - since the boy is being charged as an adult, does this mitigate any of the charges on the parents? It seems to undercut the parent’s influence…he was a child when they bought the pistol, but an adult in the eyes of the law…

I am probably missing something….

 

[.455_Hunter]

Do you want to end the armed citizenry in the US? This is how you do it, just give it enough time for the generations to cycle through. Make it so parents are afraid to even expose their kids to the thought of firearms ownership and responsible use. Make it so the Ethan Crumbley and similar skid marks are the defacto face of every tween and teenager in America who has ever held a real gun, shot a real gun, or heaven forbid actually has an ongoing relationship with shooting related activities, and might have it be part of their lifestyle.

 

[rust collector]

A question - since the boy is being charged as an adult, does this mitigate any of the charges on the parents? It seems to undercut the parent’s influence…he was a child when they bought the pistol, but an adult in the eyes of the law…

I am probably missing something….

Parents provided the gun, failed to secure it despite information about manifestation of violent intent, and undercut school response so are unlikely to be absolved. There are also jury instructions on flight to avoid prosecution and the issue of failure to appear/comply with terms of bond. Plenty of blame to go around.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Reflecting on the kid staying in school:
In the days of BHO, his Secretary of Education was a guy named Arne Duncan. This idealistic gentleman had two firmly held principles; the first bad kid had yet to be born, and school discipline was part of a pipeline to prison.
He offered a 'dear colleague' letter to superintendents nation wide, which discouraged suspension or expulsion of problem students for virtually any reason. His main concern was kids of color, but his advice was applied to all students. This was no small part of why Nikolas Cruz wasn't dealt with more firmly at Marjorie Stoneman Douglas.
I'm suspecting there was some of this thinking on the part of the Principal when he wanted to suspend the Crumbley kid, especially when his parents resisted the idea.
Moon

 

[rabid wombat]

He offered a 'dear colleague' letter to superintendents nation wide, which discouraged suspension or expulsion of problem students for virtually any reason.

“This document intentionally proposes an approach to school discipline that gives preference to keeping students in school where they can receive the academic and social-emotional supports they need. It includes recommended responsibilities of each school community member, and it lists the proactive steps of positive behavior supports and restorative practices available before articulating the school community’s consequences for disruptive conduct.”

https://www.dailywire.com/news/oxfo...discipline-practices-prior-to-school-shooting

 

[IlikeSA]

There were multiple balls dropped in this incident. Based on what little I know of the situation, I think that the district may either lack or have neglected to implement better policies and procedures in dealing with school threats. Without knowing the details, another factor may have been the school administrations unwillingness to follow the laid out policies and procedures, if they existed.

As an example, if a student in my district makes a threat, they are supposed to undergo a threat assessment screener, which can turn into a school level threat assessment. They are administratively suspended during this time, and if it turns out that they did make a threat or it warrants a higher level of scrutiny, then they can be turned over to a district level threat assessment with an automatic 5 day suspension to allow the district to discuss things with law enforcement, the juvenile system, and other governmental and/or private entities. Some school administrators do not always follow the proper procedure because of their political and/or social leanings, which is why a school safety agency should be around to ensure that the procedures are followed properly.

We have a restorative justice program as well, but when you make the kinds of threats or do the kinds of actions this student did, he would not fall under the RJ procedure.

I do not know enough about the whole situation in Michigan, but a lot of districts across the US lack the funding, manpower, or knowledge of the threat assessment procedure. It's a large part of school safety and should be implemented as much as a campus safety team or a patrol team. Some districts may lack the political will or capital to implement such a procedure.

 

[armydog]

I don't get that impression of the prosecutor at all. I see her taking great pains not to offend legitimate gun owners.

Quote
The Crumbleys committed “egregious” acts, from buying a gun on Black Friday and making it available to Ethan Crumbley to resisting his removal from school when they were summoned a few hours before the shooting, Oakland County prosecutor Karen McDonald said.
End quote

So all those other parents that took advantage of a Black Friday sale and bought a gun, but didn't allow a situation for their kid to shoot up their school, still committed an egregious act. That is just one snippet of her performance.

I had a family member listen to Pelosi's "you have to pass it to find out what's in it, away from the fog" spiel on obamacare and she said she couldn't believe how republicans are fighting the bill and that Pelosi just wants to get healthcare for everyone. lol I took Pelosi's attempted spell on the Low IQ as an insult and knew she could not care any less about people. I think I was right about that one. lol But you heard this prosecutor taking great pains not to offend legitimate gun owners? I guess we hear what we want to hear.

 

[webrx]

I am keeping on eye on what happens here

The way I see it, lots of things went wrong in this incident, but I am also of the belief that no matter how hard a parent tries (and it appears that maybe these folks didn't try very hard to be a good parent), some kids still have issues. This is what we get after years of pampering and participation awards so whose fault is it the parents did not do a good job? Maybe the grandparents need to now be charged with negligence in raising their kids, that led to the methodology they used for raising their son.

Sorry, but the ultimate responsibility belongs to the person who commits the crime, and unless there is proof that the parents were accessories to that crime, I don't see how they can or should be charged or convicted of a crime. The question is did they break the law, and, if so, what specific law did they break and to what degree?

Put the blame where it belongs in my opinion, yes it sucks the kid was 17, and yes the parents should have locked up the gun, especially when there were "signs" of instability (until my youngest son was 18 all my pistols, rifles, and ammo were locked up unless it was on my hip). The question is did the parents break the law, and, if so, what specific law did they break and to what degree? This really is a rabbit hole I wish was not being pursued, but, it appears it will be now that it is started.

deleted the rest - as I was apparently not clear enough in my analogy.

I'll stop now.

Dave

 

[Kleanbore]

IMO - If the parents are culpable, then Baldwin is culpable, the thugs that gang up and loot stores are culpable, the peaceful "protesters" are culpable when they bust a window, beat up a couple who are protecting their store, set a fire, kill an ex cop, assassinate cops sitting in their cars, and, if you want to go there, how about we charge state and city officials as accessories if they are allowing this to happen in their area of responsibility?

None of that follows,

 

[Turkeytider]

Thanks for opening this back up. I think it’s interesting the parents are being charged with something so serious. I wonder if that’s only because Michigan doesn’t have a safe storage law? I also wonder how long it will be before one is proposed? Although the kid is ultimately responsible for what he did I think it’s worth having a jury decide the degree to which the parents bear criminal responsibility.

Given that the police found them hiding in a basement you have to wonder if it isn’t a whole house full of loons. People like this are why we can’t have nice things.

The last statement is on target IMO. Apparently lots of flares in the air before this went down. The major tragedy, second only of course to the loss of life, is that this was entirely preventable.

 

[webrx]

None of that follows,

The point was, how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go aka if the parents are culpable, then maybe the grand parents are responsible too because they raised the parents.

Like in medieval times - the sins of the father passed on to the kids, etc.

 

[AlexanderA]

So all those other parents that took advantage of a Black Friday sale and bought a gun, but didn't allow a situation for their kid to shoot up their school, still committed an egregious act.

That conclusion doesn't follow at all from what the prosecutor said.

Just look at that kid's picture! I mean, he looks disturbed on the face of it. Would you have provided him with a gun?

 

[DTL]

Well, when all is said & done, we as responsible gun owners need to address this issue and begin calling out those who we know ignore or even condone & foster the behavior that leads to these incidents. I live in an overly regulated state that had the governor announce draconian measures following the latest shootings.

 

[armydog]

That conclusion doesn't follow at all from what the prosecutor said.

Just look at that kid's picture! I mean, he looks disturbed on the face of it. Would you have provided him with a gun?

She also described the Michigan gun laws as being "woefully inadequate ". If you've been around for a while, you'll know that is code for no law being good enough. Gun laws don't save lives, common sense saves lives....last i heard, you can't legislate common sense.

I'm not sure what other point your trying to make. lol

Yeah, we should now base gun laws on pictures of what kids look like. lol

 

[lightman]

This was a really tragic event and my heart and prayers go out to the victims, their families and the survivors. I don't know what to say, I deleted and reworded my responses several times.

 

[lightman]

That conclusion doesn't follow at all from what the prosecutor said.

Just look at that kid's picture! I mean, he looks disturbed on the face of it. Would you have provided him with a gun?

One of the responses that I typed and deleted was about the kids picture. And look at the before and after pictures of the parents!

 

[webrx]

This was a really tragic event and my heart and prayers go out to the victims, their families and the survivors. I don't know what to say, I deleted and reworded my responses several times.

I am with you on this, every time a child is hurt or lost it is tragic whatever the reason for it is. I have posted and reworded several posts today, some out of frustration and some out of anger at how things are and how I fear they are going to become. Maybe some out of a longing for how things used to be versus how they are today.

My heart goes out to the families of the lost and I pray that each and every one of you never have to feel the pain that comes with the loss of a child.

Dave