My wife and I are now just waiting for our CPL permits to be issued and it has brought up an issue. In Michigan your r not alloweed to carry in an establishment that relays most of its income from alcohol served by glass. Now when we snowmoblie in the northwoods 90% or better of the places u stop to eat r just that...resurants or bars that serve food and alcohol. I already have to worry about someone stealing our sleds andalways try and park in a way that detears that..I.e.towards each other...cable tied together and so on. But the thought of adding a lock box to the sled with the full knowledge that someone will see you put your gun into it just invites the posibilty of trouble. I don't like the thought of not being able to carry once permitted butcant see around it without somehelp.
Michigan/Snowmoblie
- Thread starter dab102999
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bigfatdave
Member
how often are you searched when you walk into someplace to eat?
jcwit
member
Does this imply we should only obey the laws we wish to and ignore the ones that do not suit us? Isn't that called anarchy?
We will not advocate the breaking of laws on THR. Don't like a law, then work to change it.
OP, I would find out what the law says exactlyand go from there. Chances are it is aimed at carrying in a regular old bar rather than a restaurant that sells a drink with dinner.
OP, I would find out what the law says exactlyand go from there. Chances are it is aimed at carrying in a regular old bar rather than a restaurant that sells a drink with dinner.
moxie
Member
Right. The idea is you can't bring a gun into a place that derives most of its income from sale of alcohol by the glass, i.e., a tavern or bar. Other states have similar requirements and some require the establishment to post a "51%" sign, e.g., Texas. Without the sign, though, the onus is on the gun carrier to find out where he can legally carry.
You need to determine from local law enforcement whether the places you intend to visit are considered bars or taverns for this purpose. Should be pretty easy to do.
But, when in doubt...DON'T.
You need to determine from local law enforcement whether the places you intend to visit are considered bars or taverns for this purpose. Should be pretty easy to do.
But, when in doubt...DON'T.
T Bran
Member
If I was in your situation I would stop some place before heading to a restraunt and stash my gun on the sled.
While it doesnt solve all problems at least the whole world doesnt see you stashing something of value in your sled.
While it doesnt solve all problems at least the whole world doesnt see you stashing something of value in your sled.
buck460XVR
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If that's the law you need to follow it. If you can't trust to leave you gun on your sled, you need to leave it at home or you need to stop at those places that derive the majority of income from food. Not much else you can do, besides what Robert said and push to have the law changed. Altho I enjoy riding dirt bikes and road bikes, I never really got into snowmobiles because it seems the whole point is to ride them from bar to bar. I guess it makes sense that the majority of snowmobile accidents and fatalities are alcohol related. But to each their own. Since most of the time, snowmobilers ride in groups and bad guys do not lie in wait on the trail, I'm thinking if you have survived this long without a CCW while snowmobiling, you'll still be fine now. You're biggest threat would be when entering a seedy bar. Seems to me the best bet would be to avoid seedy bars.
BTW....using cell phone text messaging abbreviations on internet forums is considered bad manners.
HOWARD J
Member
You need to have a strong lock box fastened to your machine also a burglar
alarm for snowmobiles.
This is Michigan---what did you expect ??
alarm for snowmobiles.
This is Michigan---what did you expect ??
SunnySlopes
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Here's an interesting fact. Laws are intentionally vaguely written to allow the broadest interpretation.
That law was written to prevent CC in bars and saloons. I think we all know what those are. Think, "Cheers." (Remember the TV show?)
I'd have no problem carrying in an establishment that sells food. I'd have no problem carrying in a bar that serves food. If the issue ever arose, I'd demand (the person raising the issue) prove that the establishment sold more booze than food.
That law was written to prevent CC in bars and saloons. I think we all know what those are. Think, "Cheers." (Remember the TV show?)
I'd have no problem carrying in an establishment that sells food. I'd have no problem carrying in a bar that serves food. If the issue ever arose, I'd demand (the person raising the issue) prove that the establishment sold more booze than food.
buck460XVR
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You can demand all you want, but odds are the LEO writing the citation will already know the answer. It will be up to you to prove him wrong. The law states "majority of income derived from sale of food". Sales is not income....profit is. Since there is very little profit margin in food sales and much more profit margin in the sale of booze, gross sales of either item is a moot point. One needs to sell multiple amounts of food to realize the profit made from booze. Many small mom and pop bars make little or no profit from the sale of food, but use it as a draw to sell more alcohol.
76shuvlinoff
Member
We all have to make choices in this world, just understand you may very well lose your firearm(s), your freedom, and a substantial amount of your money if you choose wrong on the wrong day.
... but then the same can be said about losing our lives too.
... but then the same can be said about losing our lives too.
guyfromohio
Member
Income is revenue, not profit. Money that "comes in". My interpretation, while in Michigan, has been... "if the menu has a steak or a fish, it's a restaurant". Peanuts or chex mix =bar. Haven't gone to the pokey yet....
heatseeker8
Member
Concealed means concealed
smalls
Member
Not in a bar in Michigan it doesn't. Read again:
Now, he can legally open carry into a bar, but he will probably be asked to leave.
beatledog7
Member
Here we go again. In Michigan, patrons in these establishments rightly expect that nobody is carrying concealed. Guys, have you no respect for the rights of others?
Clipper
Member
Places like that in northern MI are pretty easy to get along with...I have gone into those places and simply OC... I've never been asked to leave.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Hee hee. Not sure if that's sarcasm or not, but anyone who "expects" that no one around him is armed is a fool, unless he's passed through metal detectors to get where he is...and maybe not then, either.
Laws only prevent the righteous, well-intentioned folks from carrying a weapon. Not the guys who will break other, much more serious laws -- like robbery, rape, and murder. They're free to carry whatever they want, because the law doesn't hinder them.
However, as Robert said, we WILL NOT advocate breaking the law here. If the only way you can carry in a bar or restaurant is open carry, then that's what you have to do. If the establishment doesn't allow it -- leave. If the law says you can't have a drink while carrying -- DON'T. If the law says you cannot enter these establishments while armed -- pack a lunch (hey, it's cheaper anyway and probably better for you
).beatledog7
Member
It was partly sarcastic, but not wholly. I guess you can read it either way.
My real intention was to point out that if we as self-proclaimed lawful and respectful gun owners have no respect for the rules, then we are not so lawful and respectful after all. 2A does not give anyone the right to trample the rights of others, whether they know you're doing it or not.
My real intention was to point out that if we as self-proclaimed lawful and respectful gun owners have no respect for the rules, then we are not so lawful and respectful after all. 2A does not give anyone the right to trample the rights of others, whether they know you're doing it or not.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Certainly! Respect for the rule of law is almost the top priority for a righteous person.
Of course, whether or not I am carrying a gun at any time or place has no bearing on the rights of others, but that's perhaps a different discussion.
Of course, whether or not I am carrying a gun at any time or place has no bearing on the rights of others, but that's perhaps a different discussion.
beatledog7
Member
It does when that other person is a property owner who has asked otherwise or is a person who chooses one establishment over another because of its no guns policy. And it's relevant in this thread for exactly those reasons.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
A philosophical difference I believe you and I have discussed before. I don't buy it, but if it is compelling to you then act as your conscience directs.
scaatylobo
Member
AND all obey that rule ?
Just as in the Colo.theater shooting,guns are not allowed and it sure looks like everyone obeyed that law.
EXCEPT the shooter/MURDERER.
That being the case I see very few choices if you wish to be SOBER and safe.
Just as in the Colo.theater shooting,guns are not allowed and it sure looks like everyone obeyed that law.
EXCEPT the shooter/MURDERER.
That being the case I see very few choices if you wish to be SOBER and safe.
smalls
Member
Clipper, I'll admit I have very little ecperience with people from up north, and they're probably a lot more tolerant/understanding than I made it out to be.
Either way, even if they don't like it they'll just ask you to leave/remove your sidearm. You can then decide to eat there and remove it, or find another restaurant.
Either way, even if they don't like it they'll just ask you to leave/remove your sidearm. You can then decide to eat there and remove it, or find another restaurant.
guyfromohio
Member
Unless they post a P and L at the door, we don't know what percentage of revenue originates from which source. Therefore, we must make educated guesses. If it has a menu and a kitchen, it's a restaurant. If not, it's a bar. If it's posted, don't carry. If not, make the educated guess.
beatledog7
Member
It is a dilemma, to be sure.
If we don't carry when asked not to by those who prefer that nobody be carrying a gun, even though we all know criminals don't obey laws or respect rights, we are respecting those folks' rights.
If we carry anyway, we're doing what we think is justifiable even though it is also, no matter how you slice it, going against the rights of those who desire to create and enjoy an environment where there are no guns. From the perspective of individual rights, it is beside the point that crooks will have guns no matter what the law says and no matter how the policy of the property owner reads.
Each of must decide whether we will enter such places, remembering always that we can choose not to violate another person's "no guns" rights in one of two ways: we can choose to not carry, or we can choose to not enter. I choose not to enter for some, not to carry for others. I don't carry when a legitimate, even if not necessarily lawful request to the contrary has been made.
It's quite ironic to me that some of us see these place as so desirable that we are willing to commit a property rights violation in order to patronize them, and yet so dangerous that we won't disarm before we enter.
Please remember also that the "they're sure happy to take my money" argument is only valid until they know you have a gun; then they don't want your money and they ask you to depart. If you're armed, they clearly prefer your absence over your money.
If we don't carry when asked not to by those who prefer that nobody be carrying a gun, even though we all know criminals don't obey laws or respect rights, we are respecting those folks' rights.
If we carry anyway, we're doing what we think is justifiable even though it is also, no matter how you slice it, going against the rights of those who desire to create and enjoy an environment where there are no guns. From the perspective of individual rights, it is beside the point that crooks will have guns no matter what the law says and no matter how the policy of the property owner reads.
Each of must decide whether we will enter such places, remembering always that we can choose not to violate another person's "no guns" rights in one of two ways: we can choose to not carry, or we can choose to not enter. I choose not to enter for some, not to carry for others. I don't carry when a legitimate, even if not necessarily lawful request to the contrary has been made.
It's quite ironic to me that some of us see these place as so desirable that we are willing to commit a property rights violation in order to patronize them, and yet so dangerous that we won't disarm before we enter.
Please remember also that the "they're sure happy to take my money" argument is only valid until they know you have a gun; then they don't want your money and they ask you to depart. If you're armed, they clearly prefer your absence over your money.
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