Miculek says: stop sending the wrong message with open carry activism

[Midwest]

Lets be real. We have a segment of "Pro 2nd Amendment" that are flat out retarded with there displays. This hurts us. I wouldn,t be surprised if they were anti 2nd A planted to do stupid stuff to make us look bad. I wouldn.t put it past them.

I agree 100%

So because these guys are in Texas and could not open carry a pistol. They carried their rifles into the establishment and ended up having firearms banned in all the Chipotles throughout the U.S. These guys did more damage to law abiding gun owners who like to carry than Bloomberg and Moms could ever wish to hope to accomplish.


Then again, who knows... maybe they are on Bloomberg's payroll.....
.

 

[Mainsail]

If open carry was more common, an acceptable standard for open carry would be established that was not as extreme as the example set by these two neophytes. Currently, there isn't a large enough group practicing open carry to establish the peer pressure needed to moderate behavior

Exactly! If we were able to do it that way in liberal Seattle, there's no reason the so-called gun rights Eden of Texas cannot.

 

[ATLDave]

Is CA, NY, NJ, CT in a better position for Gun rights?

So the only plan of action is to continue to cut checks to whatever .org tells you they are the true path to RKBA?

Yes. 20 years ago, they were totally at the mercy of their state legislators. Now they have a federally-recognized right as a backstop. Exactly how big that backstop is remains unclear, but it's there.

No. You can call or write your legislator directly. You can talk to your non-gun friends. You can express open support or enthusiasm for shooting. You can take a new shooter to the range for the first time. You can vote based on the gun views of the candidates. You can do lots of things other than carrying a loaded long arm at the ready in a suburban setting.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

I think you’re getting hung up on the word protest. Like I said, we just wore our handgun in a holster with the attitude it was no different than wearing a watch or a lapel pin. I don’t normally carry a hog-leg like that, so I wouldn’t wear it just to make a point.

Then wear a smaller one like this:



Also perfectly legal in Texas.

Here is the law for what a firearm is in Texas:

(3) "Firearm" means any device designed, made, or adapted to expel a projectile through a barrel by using the energy generated by an explosion or burning substance or any device readily convertible to that use. Firearm does not include a firearm that may have, as an integral part, a folding knife blade or other characteristics of weapons made illegal by this chapter and that is:

(A) an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899; or

(B) a replica of an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899, but only if the replica does not use rim fire or center fire ammunition.

These aren't even firearms in Texas. Laws regulating the carry of firearms don't apply to them.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Exactly! If we were able to do it that way in liberal Seattle, there's no reason the so-called gun rights Eden of Texas cannot.

Oh god seriously? It didn't even take a week this time. The last one was yesterday. And from Washington State again. What is going on up there?

 

[Mainsail]

Then wear a smaller one like this:



Also perfectly legal in Texas.

That is some kind of cool. More info please!

So there you go- promote the carry of those.

 

[Sam1911]

Exactly! If we were able to do it that way in liberal Seattle, there's no reason the so-called gun rights Eden of Texas cannot.

Surely. But this isn't the way to start that movement, as I think you agree.

There is a basic disconnect here that I think causes us more strife than necessary.

There are some (maybe a few, maybe "most," I'm not sure) folks who think open carry is bad.

There are a bunch who think open carry is fine, ok, sometimes ok, generally ok, occasionally a good idea, often a good idea, or some other variation of generally acceptable.

There are a VERY few who think what these doods did is a good choice for them/us/the movement.

We do ourselves a disservice when we unnecessarily conflate the first two groups. Many, if not most, of the folks disapproving of this behavior are not opposed to open carry.

 

[Mainsail]

Oh god seriously? It didn't even take a week this time. The last one was yesterday. And from Washington State again. What is going on up there?

Lol.

You Texans are soooo touchy. Lighten up.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

That is some kind of cool. More info please!

PIETTA 1851 YANK SNUBNOSE REVOLVER

So there you go- promote the carry of those.

Still in the process of educating some of the local LEO, but it's a thing.

 

[Sam1911]

Oh god seriously? It didn't even take a week this time. The last one was yesterday. And from Washington State again. What is going on up there?

Ok, ok...look, TX is a neat place, but no one is promoting it's ways as some kind of utopia, so there's no need to have a big ol' Texas-sized chip on one's shoulder any time someone points out the need for serious improvements to TX gun laws.

Folks just find that ironic and sadly funny, and you really can't fault them for it. Protesting too much makes TXs look petty and small, when really Texans are tough enough to take a little ribbing, right?

Let it go.

 

[tomrkba]

Again, people can po-po them all they want, but pro-gun rights people have ZERO ability to stop them. NONE. ZILCH. ZIP. NADA.

Therefore, the best response is to GUIDE them by working with them in constructive ways. Otherwise, they will just ignore their critics and do what they want regardless of any attempt to shame them. Promoting legislation against it only cuts our own throats, so it's our only viable option.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Open carry doesn't bother me. SOME people open carrying DOES bother me.

And anybody who disagrees with that statement very likely isn't being 100% honest with themselves.

As part of my situational awareness, obviously the sight of a gun will attract my notice. That's not derogatory...it's just a point of notice.

And just as important, perhaps even more so, are people's appearance and behavior, as well as location. Certain things stand out. Certain things trip little warning alarms. Many things do not.

Lots of things go though my mind when I take in my surroundings. "Gun" triggers some of them. Holstered or unholstered? Open or concealed? Person clean cut or a slob? What are their eyes doing? What is their stance? Are they fidgity or calm? Is the gun accompanied by any overt actions which concern me? At what point do I encounter person with gun?

I can't name them all because, quite frankly, what I think is governed by the circumstances at the time.

If I had happened in on the Chipotle's that Clown 1 and Clown 2 were in, likely I would have thought "great...two clowns with guns".

But if I turned around and the first thing I saw was skinny Clown 2 in the shades holding his rifle the way he is, my thought processes could very well have been something radically different. That would be the equivalent of me have my CCW pistol out of my holster and in my hand, which I daresay would attract the attention of each and every person in this forum if you happened upon me at that time.

If I had been standing at the counter ordering something when they came in and somebody screamed "HE'S GOT A GUN!", again, my thought processes would have been radically different in that instant.

Pretty much that ONLY thing that DOESN'T change in all this is my own, personal responsibility when it comes to the application of deadly force. I MUST be right, each and every time I consider using it, no matter what the circumstances and no matter what challenges some people (like these clowns) may present.


If I were a business owner/manager...then I would also make my decisions based on how it affects my business as well. And my perception of their behavior would weigh heavily on such a situation as this.


Open carry in that location, according to my reading, is legal. Fine. I can accept that and live with that. But this doesn't mean that I have to like or appreciate the ways some people go about doing it.

 

[tomrkba]

I agree with you RetiredUSNChief, but we're now at the point where we need to jump in and start guiding the open carry movement. Simply "disliking" it does nothing constructive and they will continue to open carry in ways that are destructive to our cause.

 

[Fred Fuller]

“Very often we are our own worst enemy as we foolishly build stumbling blocks on the path that leads to success and happiness.” - Louis Binstock

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2014/05/19/Chipotle-bans-firearms-in-restaurants/1181400552952/
Chipotle bans firearms in restaurants
Chipotle restaurants asks customers not to open carry firearms in restaurants after Open Carry Texas group event.
By Danielle Haynes | May 19, 2014 at 10:59 PM | 86 Comments

So ... objectively observing all the furor that's been raised over this, what positives were accomplished here?

What negatives?

Who benefitted from the above?

Are RKBA advocates in a better position because this happened, or would RKBA advocates be better off overall had this pair stayed home that day?

 

[huntsman]

Open carry in that location, according to my reading, is legal. Fine. I can accept that and live with that. But this doesn't mean that I have to like or appreciate the ways some people go about doing it.

That's what I find most interesting about this thread, the bulk of the posts are by folks who somehow feel Their perception matters, when what matters is the reaction by the company not the legal action by a citizen.

 

[oneounceload]

If I had happened in on the Chipotle's that Clown 1 and Clown 2 were in, likely I would have thought "great...two clowns with guns".

But if I turned around and the first thing I saw was skinny Clown 2 in the shades holding his rifle the way he is, my thought processes could very well have been something radically different. That would be the equivalent of me have my CCW pistol out of my holster and in my hand, which I daresay would attract the attention of each and every person in this forum if you happened upon me at that time.

If I had been standing at the counter ordering something when they came in and somebody screamed "HE'S GOT A GUN!", again, my thought processes would have been radically different in that instant.

Yep, I agree, and if I was the manager or owner of a business those two came in, my attitude towards carrying in my place would be changed immediately - and I am pro 2a; take someone who is a fence sitter, and you just converted him to Brady's side

 

[ATLDave]

That's what I find most interesting about this thread, the bulk of the posts are by folks who somehow feel Their perception matters, when what matters is the reaction by the company not the legal action by a citizen.

??? As human beings and Americans, we're allowed to have opinions on the actions of others. Lots of things that are not illegal are still wrong, and I will think someone who does legal-but-wrong things is a jerk. This isn't controversial.

As for the claim that the actions of these two clowno-Americans don't matter, the facts belie that claim. Before their action, Chipotle faced no significant market pressure to ban guns. After their action, it did. Unsurprisingly, for an entity in the business of selling burritos, not guns, they bowed to that pressure (sort of). The buffoonery of Bevis and Butthead has had consequences. And, therefore, their actions matter.

 

[BSA1]

While the O.P.’s topic is to condemn gun owners that do something offensive to others (in this case O.C. in a restaurant) I feel this is really more of a case of people that live in a glass house should not throw rocks. Stop for a moment and consider how many of the following apply to you;

1. Don’t have pro-gun organization bumper stickers including ones that might have messages that someone might find to be politically incorrect.
2. Don’t wear clothing in public with images of firearms, names of pro-gun organizations such as NRA or other pro-gun messages.
3. Don’t discuss 2A and pro-gun issues at work, social gatherings, church and neighbors.
4. Hide your guns from view in your home by visitors.
5. Hide being seen loading your guns in your vehicle when going shooting.
6. Avoid going outside in your own yard without a gun to avoid be seen by neighbors.
7. Allow your children to attend schools that ban clothing with images of guns, names of pro-gun organizations such as NRA or other pro-gun messages.
8. Allow your schools to punish children that draw pictures of firearms.
9. Allow your schools to punish children that draw pictures that teachers and Administrators deem violent. A child was recently investigated by the Police and punished for drawing a picture of a stick figure used in the game “Hangman.”
10. Allow your schools to punish children that point their finger like a gun or have anything that remotely resembles a gun, such as pastry.
11. Tell your children and grandchildren not to tell anyone the you own a gun or have guns in the home or that you are carrying a gun.
12. Condemn other gun owners that own legal guns you believe that they should not own such as AR style rifles.
13. Do not attend public meetings and remain silent when gun laws are discussed.
14. Don’t go to political meetings to meet candidates and discuss their position on gun control.
15. Don’t write or contact your Congressman about gun control issues.
16. Don’t vote.

These are just a few examples that came to me. Given a little more time I can think of more,

******************************************************

First they came for high capacity magazines and I did not speak out--
Because I don’t own high capacity magazines.

Then they came for the firearms that look like military style guns but I did not speak out--
Because I don’t own military style guns.

Then they came for semi-automatic rifles and handguns and I did not speak out--
Because I don’t own semi-automatic rifles and handguns.

Then they came for hollow point bullets and I did not speak out—
Because I don’t own hollow point bullets.

Then they came for all firearms that don’t have any sporting use and I did not speak out--
Because I don’t own non-sporting use firearms.

Then they came for mine--and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

[BSA1]

Yep, I agree, and if I was the manager or owner of a business those two came in, my attitude towards carrying in my place would be changed immediately - and I am pro 2a; take someone who is a fence sitter, and you just converted him to Brady's side

Until business drops way off from gun owners not buying from him.

 

[huntsman]

Lots of things that are not illegal are still wrong, and I will think someone who does legal-but-wrong things is a jerk. This isn't controversial.

It's not about the incident, it's about a fear of firearms and people who don't want the law to favor someone if that someone is doing something they don't approve of. What if the two guys were hunters who couldn't safely leave their firearms in the vehicle?

Citizens need to understand that IF the law allows possession and open carry in public then they(citizens) have to accept it regardless if it makes them uncomfortable.

I think the real fear within the gun community is this in your face activity will force a ruling by SCOTUS that is not what we want to believe is our right.

 

[Sam1911]

BSA, most of that doesn't have anything at all to do with what we're discussing here. And the "glass houses" metaphor is not congruent.

You seem to have a knee-jerk reaction to support these guys, but not much more than a vague emotional response to base it on.

You're also conflating "bad idea" with "illegal" and "shouldn't" with "there's a law against it."

 

[Fred Fuller]

UPDATE: Chipotle has asked customers to leave their guns at home in a statement released on Monday afternoon:

“The issue of gun ownership or gun rights has become one of the most contentious debates in the country. Chipotle has never taken a position on this issue, as we focus instead on our mission to change the way people think about and eat fast food.

Recently participants from an “open carry” demonstration in Texas brought guns (including military-style assault rifles) into one of our restaurants, causing many of our customers anxiety and discomfort. Because of this, we are respectfully asking that customers not bring guns into our restaurants, unless they are authorized law enforcement personnel.

Historically, we felt it enough to simply comply with local laws regarding the open or concealed carrying of firearms, because we believe that it is not fair to put our team members in the uncomfortable position of asking that customers refrain from bringing guns into our restaurants. However, because the display of firearms in our restaurants has now created an environment that is potentially intimidating or uncomfortable for many of our customers, we think it is time to make this request.

We acknowledge that there are strong arguments on both sides of this issue. We have seen those differing positions expressed in the wake of this event in Texas, where pro-gun customers have contacted us to applaud our support of the Second Amendment, and anti-gun customers have expressed concern over the visible display of military-style assault rifles in restaurants where families are eating. The vast majority of gun owners are responsible citizens and we appreciate them honoring this request. And we hope that our customers who oppose the carrying of guns in public agree with us that it is the role of elected officials and the legislative process to set policy in this area, not the role of businesses like Chipotle.”

- quoted from http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoc...-chipotle-to-ban-guns-after-open-carry-event/

 

[Sam1911]

Stop for a moment and consider how many of the following apply to you;

Ok.

1. Don’t have pro-gun organization bumper stickers including ones that might have messages that someone might find to be politically incorrect.

Nope.

2. Don’t wear clothing in public with images of firearms, names of pro-gun organizations such as NRA or other pro-gun messages.

Nope.

3. Don’t discuss 2A and pro-gun issues at work, social gatherings, church and neighbors.

Nope.

4. Hide your guns from view in your home by visitors.

Nope.

5. Hide being seen loading your guns in your vehicle when going shooting.

Nope.

6. Avoid going outside in your own yard without a gun to avoid be seen by neighbors.

Nope.

7. Allow your children to attend schools that ban clothing with images of guns, names of pro-gun organizations such as NRA or other pro-gun messages.

Nope.

8. Allow your schools to punish children that draw pictures of firearms.

Nope.

9. Allow your schools to punish children that draw pictures that teachers and Administrators deem violent.

Nope.

10. Allow your schools to punish children that point their finger like a gun or have anything that remotely resembles a gun, such as pastry.

Nope.

11. Tell your children and grandchildren not to tell anyone the you own a gun or have guns in the home or that you are carrying a gun.

Nope.

12. Condemn other gun owners that own legal guns you believe that they should not own such as AR style rifles.

Nope.

13. Do not attend public meetings and remain silent when gun laws are discussed.

Nope.

14. Don’t go to political meetings to meet candidates and discuss their position on gun control.

Nope.

15. Don’t write or contact your Congressman about gun control issues.

Nope.

16. Don’t vote.

Nope.

But I still understand that these two doods acted like idiots and made life just a little worse for gun owners with their actions and I condemn that wholeheartedly.

What does that get me? Do I win the Kewpie doll?

 

[Sam1911]

It's not about the incident, it's about a fear of firearms and people who don't want the law to favor someone if that someone is doing something they don't approve of. What if the two guys were hunters who didn't want to leave their firearms in the vehicle?

This isn't about the law. A matter of law is not involved.

Citizens need to understand that IF the law allows possession and open carry in public then they(citizens) have to accept it regardless if it makes them uncomfortable.

But a private business DOES NOT. Moot point. And given that regardless of whether people must live with your right to do xyz, if it makes them uncomfortable that you do it in their presence they may ask the owners of a venue to not allow you to do xyz on the premises, and voila! Chipotle bans carrying weapons.

I think the real fear within the gun community is this in your face activity will force a ruling by SCOTUS that is not what we want to believe is our right.

SCOTUS isn't going to rule on this at all. This is a private business owner's right to decide and these doods just forced their hand and made them make a choice. Now we all get to live with it.

 

[BullfrogKen]

I agree with you RetiredUSNChief, but we're now at the point where we need to jump in and start guiding the open carry movement. Simply "disliking" it does nothing constructive and they will continue to open carry in ways that are destructive to our cause.

Who's this we? You got a mouse in your pocket?


From my experiences in life, guys who go out of their way to be obnoxious enjoy it. And they won't be guided, led, encouraged or endure any attempt otherwise to alter their behavior. This is a fad, a phase, and it'll pass like all fads do. If it doesn't, we'll see more and more business posted no guns, and obnoxious jerks like these will find themselves isolated and alone.