Midway Surplus M1 Carbine

[WVsig]

I am no expert but I believe that guns with provenance from sources like CMP and these guns from Midway will continue to go up in value. The rest of the market is the Wild Wild West.

The number of collectors for things like this are always in flux with peaks and valleys but overall they will continue to go up but might not beat the rate of inflation.

 

[Sistema1927]

I am no expert but I believe that guns with providence from sources like CMP and these guns from Midway will continue to go up in value. The rest of the market is the Wild Wild West.

The number of collectors for things like this are always in flux with peaks and valleys but overall they will continue to go up but might not beat the rate of inflation.

My Quality Hardware carbine doesn't have any "providence" ("provenance"), but it is worth considerably more than the $400 that I originally paid for it. I don't know what you mean by "the Wild Wild West", but it has certainly beat inflation, and I am guessing this is true for any other GI carbine that is not a basket of parts.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

The ATF treats an M2 marked receiver as a machine gun for NFA purposes.

The ATF treats an M1 with a conversion kit installed as a machine gun.

Currently ATF treats the conversion kit itself (T17 or T18) as a machine gun even without a Carbine.

Modified parts to convert Carbine M1 to M2 include hammer, sear, trigger housing, slide, magazine catch, stock (clearance cuts for disconnector and selector switch), disconnector, disconnector lever, selector.

Considering some open bolt semi autos could be easily converted on a kitchen table with a file, ATF does not consider the M1 Carbine requiring nine new or modified parts as an easy conversion.

Besides millions of M1 Carbines are owned and used for traditional and lawful purposes by their legal owners, so NFAing the M1 Carbine is not an ATF priority.

ATF even has a list of M2 parts that are considered acceptable in a legal M1 because the military used them to repair M1 Carbines (like M2 stock, magazine catch, slide). Parts that enable full auto fire (like disconnector, disconnector lever, selector) are not acceptable.

 

[WVsig]

My Quality Hardware carbine doesn't have any "providence" ("provenance"), but it is worth considerably more than the $400 that I originally paid for it. I don't know what you mean by "the Wild Wild West", but it has certainly beat inflation, and I am guessing this is true for any other GI carbine that is not a basket of parts.

My point is that the carbines that command the most amount of money have provenance. The ones that are mix-masters yes have value and will continue to grow in value but the ones which are highly prized and collectible are the ones from known sources.

I have a mix-master IBM that is worth quite a bit of money even with some odd parts in it. The other thing that you’re not taking into account is how many counterfeit parts there are out there like stocks and sites with people trying to present guns as things that they are not to command a higher price because it is “correct”.

 

[Speedo66]

Modified parts to convert Carbine M1 to M2 include hammer, sear, trigger housing, slide, magazine catch, stock (clearance cuts for disconnector and selector switch), disconnector, disconnector lever, selector.

You'll also need a selector spring.

 

[Sistema1927]

My point is that the carbines that command the most amount of money have provenance. the ones that are Mix-Masters yes have value and will continue to grow in value but the ones which are highly prized and collectible are the ones from Known sources.

Seeing as how the vast majority of carbines were government re-arsenaled with no regard for matching parts, I would be more suspect of any carbine that is all matching.

Exactly what do you know about the "known source" of the carbines recently sold by Midway? Lots of speculation, but very little that one could bank on. Not saying that they weren't worth what they sold for, since that was a result of market demand and not an indication that these were pristine "correct" rifles.

 

[35 Whelen]

My point is that the carbines that command the most amount of money have provenance. the ones that are Mix-Masters yes have value and will continue to grow in value but the ones which are highly prized and collectible are the ones from Known sources.

I have a mixmaster IBM that is worth quite a bit of money even with some odd parts in it. The other thing that you’re not taking into account is how many counterfeit parks there are out there like stocks and sites with people trying to present guns as things that they are not to command a higher price because it is “correct”.

There is quite a division amongst carbine owners re shooters vs. collectors in regard to value.

The carbines that haven't been re-arsenaled definitely have more value from a collectors point of view. But from a shooters perspective, and that'd be me, the original flip sights are next to worthless (Who carries a hammer and punch around with them so they can correct windage??)and the Type I and II barrel bands aren't as conducive to good accuracy as are the Type III (bayonet lug)bands, especially if one is shooting with a sling. My Midway Carbine came with what I understand to be a "highly collectible" Winchester dog-leg style hammer. They tell me that this hammer is largely responsible for the atrocious 9 lb. trigger pull, but that I'd be a fool to change it because its original to the trigger housing. So it's arguably more valuable but more difficult to shoot!

Carbines that have been re-arsenaled, on the other hand, have been checked out and had the appropriate parts upgraded to newer parts and parts that are out of spec replaced, making them more reliable, giving them longer shooting life and making them more valuable to those of us who like to shoot what we own.

35W

 

[WVsig]

Seeing as how the vast majority of carbines were government re-arsenaled with no regard for matching parts, I would be more suspect of any carbine that is all matching.

Exactly what do you know about the "known source" of the carbines recently sold by Midway? Lots of speculation, but very little that one could bank on. Not saying that they weren't worth what they sold for, since that was a result of market demand and not an indication that these were pristine "correct" rifles.

I agree that most carbine are a mix of parts because the military did not care about collectability but function. I think most people use the term "correct" vs "matching". We know for a fact that contractors swapped parts to complete production. Original rilfes as they left the factory can be 100% "correct" but be "missmatched". Which is why I believe that 99% of the time when someone sells even a "correct" carbine they have read the book and pieced it together out of parts they sourced and installed but were not in the rifle when they got it. Which IMHO makes it no better than the original condition. The exception are WWII bring backs with provenance of who brought it back. My IBM is a mixed parts rifle that is mostly IBM which a early Winchester stock and a few other none IBM parts. I could get the "correct" parts swap them out and call it a "Correct" rifle but to me that is a bit of a fraud. Plus it shoots just fine as it is.

For me these guns came from a known source. I have bought from them many times over the years. I spoke directly to the person who manages the warehouse that sorted them. He saw all of them move through the process. He also is the one who received them into the country. They have been working to get this lot of carbines into the country for a few years. There is no speculation about where they came from. Some were more correct than others. Many definitely had parts replaced in the field. It is my understanding that they never came back to the US to be re-arsenaled.

What I know is that the guns that Midway just sold were sold in the condition that they came into the country in. It is my understanding that they did not swap parts. The parts in the gun when it shipped to the customer were the parts in the gun when they were put into storage 70 years ago. So there is some provenance to this batch vs one you are picking up at a gun show or off GB. Also there is a huge number of fake parts in the market which are sold to people looking to build a "correct" rifle. Most people will not know the difference. Winchester stocks are often faked. The best rifles are the ones from CMP. The certificate that they give you tells you a lot about what you got. For example my Collector Grade HRA is the rifle as it left the factory and I have the documentation to prove. Small lots of guns like the one's Midway just sold are the next best thing. IMHO clearly YMMV.

There is quite a division amongst carbine owners re shooters vs. collectors in regard to value.

The carbines that haven't been re-arsenaled definitely have more value from a collectors point of view. But from a shooters perspective, and that'd be me, the original flip sights are next to worthless (Who carries a hammer and punch around with them so they can correct windage??)and the Type I and II barrel bands aren't as conducive to good accuracy as are the Type III (bayonet lug)bands, especially if one is shooting with a sling. My Midway Carbine came with what I understand to be a "highly collectible" Winchester dog-leg style hammer. They tell me that this hammer is largely responsible for the atrocious 9 lb. trigger pull, but that I'd be a fool to change it because its original to the trigger housing. So it's arguably more valuable but more difficult to shoot!

Carbines that have been re-arsenaled, on the other hand, have been checked out and had the appropriate parts upgraded to newer parts and parts that are out of spec replaced, making them more reliable, giving them longer shooting life and making them more valuable to those of us who like to shoot what we own.

35W

Certainly shooters are different from collectors but in terms of value. I am talking about $$$$. Collector guns with provenance get the most money. I personally don't collect guns for monetary value. I have them because I want them and like to shoot them. Clearly you saw value in the Midway guns because you bought one. I am not sure what the issue is.

 

[CapnMac]

Lots of speculation, but very little that one could bank on.

Midway told us these were purchased for use by the Italian Carabinari, but went into storage rather than issue racks.

 

[WVsig]

Midway told us these were purchased for use by the Italian Carabinari, but went into storage rather than issue racks.

This is what I was told and it is one of the reasons that they were allowed into the country. Similar to the Bavarian Carbines, LEO Berettas 92S, 85s & 84s and German Sig handguns which have come into the country. I was told if they had been in the hands of a military they would have not been able to import them. Sometimes it helps to know who to listen to @Sistema1927 vs the chatter by people who don't know.

 

[amd6547]

I don't mind the flip sight...once it is zeroed, it stays that way. Never really messed with the AR-15 A1 sight after zeroing, either.

 

[WVsig]

I don't mind the flip sight...once it is zeroed, it stays that way. Never really messed with the AR-15 A1 sight after zeroing, either.

Set it and forget it!

 

[35 Whelen]

Certainly shooters are different from collectors but in terms of value. I am talking about $$$$. Collector guns with provenance get the most money. I personally don't collect guns for monetary value. I have them because I want them and like to shoot them. Clearly you saw value in the Midway guns because you bought one. I am not sure what the issue is.

No issue, just adding my points of view.

Set it and forget it!

Right, except 1) The guy who initially sighted in a given rifle in all likelihood will hold and shoot it slightly differently from the next guy and 2) wind drift is a SOB on these little bullets, especially at 200 yds., so it's nice to give the sight a few clicks to center the group.

35W

 

[WVsig]

No issue, just adding my points of view.



Right, except 1) The guy who initially sighted in a given rifle in all likelihood will hold and shoot it slightly differently from the next guy and 2) wind drift is a SOB on these little bullets, especially at 200 yds., so it's nice to give the sight a few clicks to center the group.

35W

Right so bring the bring the correct tools to the range and set it and forget it so you can shoot your rifle. It is a pain in the ass once if it is your rifle. It is not some insurmountable hurdle. Yet that tiny detail might yield you 30% in terms or value. Shooter vs collector and for the record I am a shooter.

In the end 99% of these discussions just end up being people justifying what they bought, have, prefer etc.... the truth is that the relatively free market just reset the value of M1 Carbines. In the end you are either going to be penalized or profit from that reset.

 

[Sistema1927]

Midway told us these were purchased for use by the Italian Carabinari, but went into storage rather than issue racks.

Here is what Midway said (Note the phrases that I have bolded):

After years of effort, our Supplier has been successful in securing a large lot of U.S. made M1 Carbines and MidwayUSA has purchased all of them! These M1 Carbines have not been arsenal refurbished.

(But, wait for it...)

UPDATE 5/19/2021 – While working through the grading process on the M1 Carbines, we now believe these issued carbines were turned back in to the U.S. Government for a functionality Check and Test. Our supplier believes this process would have been done in Europe and would have occurred prior to their transfer to the Italian Armed Forces. As part of the Check and Test process, parts may have been replaced or upgraded. Examples of replaced or upgraded parts could include stocks, bayonet lugs, sights, bolts, safeties or other small parts. In rare cases, barrels may have been replaced, but they appear consistent with wartime production and use. There is no evidence suggesting these guns have been refinished, just brought to a serviceable standard prior to their transfer.

As always, buy the gun, not the story. Not saying that this importation wasn't a very good thing, and that people aren't getting fantastic carbines, but this is not a "provenance" that guarantees that these are in WWII issue condition as has been suggested by others.

 

[35 Whelen]

Right so bring the bring the correct tools to the range and set it and forget it so you can shoot your rifle. It is a pain in the ass once if it is your rifle. It is not some insurmountable hurdle. Yet that tiny detail might yield you 30% in terms or value. Shooter vs collector and for the record I am a shooter.

In the end 99% of these discussions just end up being people justifying what they bought, have, prefer etc.... the truth is that the relatively free market just reset the value of M1 Carbines. In the end you are either going to be penalized or profit from that reset.

So are you suggesting making drift adjustments to the sights every time one shoots in a crosswind? That's kind of unrealistic, and my range is but a couple hundred feet from my house and my tools.
I'm not sure the point you're trying to make, but your post is a bit difficult to understand.

35W

 

[WVsig]

So are you suggesting making drift adjustments to the sights every time one shoots in a crosswind? That's kind of unrealistic, and my range is but a couple hundred feet from my house and my tools.
I'm not sure the point you're trying to make, but your post is a bit difficult to understand.

35W

I am suggesting that 99.9999 of people buying M1carbines are not worried about shooting dimes at 100 yards because anyone who understands the platform does not expect it to do that without some work. By work I mean drifting the sight based on the days windage. If that takes some tools so be it.

If you are shooting minute of man which is really what the rifle was intended for I imagine within 100 yards a proper shooter who knows their rifle can adjust.

 

[WVsig]

Here is what Midway said (Note the phrases that I have bolded):

After years of effort, our Supplier has been successful in securing a large lot of U.S. made M1 Carbines and MidwayUSA has purchased all of them! These M1 Carbines have not been arsenal refurbished.

(But, wait for it...)

UPDATE 5/19/2021 – While working through the grading process on the M1 Carbines, we now believe these issued carbines were turned back in to the U.S. Government for a functionality Check and Test. Our supplier believes this process would have been done in Europe and would have occurred prior to their transfer to the Italian Armed Forces. As part of the Check and Test process, parts may have been replaced or upgraded. Examples of replaced or upgraded parts could include stocks, bayonet lugs, sights, bolts, safeties or other small parts. In rare cases, barrels may have been replaced, but they appear consistent with wartime production and use. There is no evidence suggesting these guns have been refinished, just brought to a serviceable standard prior to their transfer.

As always, buy the gun, not the story. Not saying that this importation wasn't a very good thing, and that people aren't getting fantastic carbines, but this is not a "provenance" that guarantees that these are in WWII issue condition as has been suggested by others.

Do you know who the supplier is? Have you spoken directly with them? The information is out there you just need to know who to believe Yes 100% on your statement. They are still better lineage than your average GB sale. Have you corresponded with anyone who has actually touched one of these guns?

 

[Sistema1927]

@WVsig , if you are trying to justify what you paid for one of these (assuming that you were a purchaser, hard to see why you would be so invested otherwise), then feel free to believe that you have the best "provenance" possible, and that this will cause your carbine to stand head and shoulders above all others.

Others of us don't think that to be the case. Heck, even the DCM/CMP guns aren't necessarily better than the average run of the mill GI gun.

 

[WVsig]

@WVsig , if you are trying to justify what you paid for one of these (assuming that you were a purchaser, hard to see why you would be so invested otherwise), then feel free to believe that you have the best "provenance" possible, and that this will cause your carbine to stand head and shoulders above all others.

Others of us don't think that to be the case. Heck, even the DCM/CMP guns aren't necessarily better than the average run of the mill GI gun.

Funny I am not trying to justify anything and have nothing invested. LOL I enjoy a good discussion. I am stating that the company that imported these guns knows where they came from. You say it is a mystery and you are wrong. I know one of the principles of the company that Midway is referencing in your quote above. There is no mystery. Many of them were refurbished in the field but many were not. They are all in the condition and configuration that they were in when WWII ended and they were given to the Italian Carabinari. They never used them. I think we are illustrating 2 different mentalities on these guns. As @35 Whelen pointed out there are different criteria for “value”. Some want these guns for shooting some want them for collecting and history. Others want them because they view them as investments. People like me see them as all of the above.

I agree that these guns or CMP guns might not shoot any better than one assembled out of a barrel of spare parts like you would see at gun shows even in the 90s but the fact of the matter is that CMP guns sell for more than other guns. I believe that these will too because they are a known importation from a known source sold by a major retailer. I also believe that they have reset the bar for what M1 carbines are worth. Anyone selling one now can point to what Midway sold theirs for and ask for similar money. They may or may not get it but someone with one of those guns from Midway will get their asking price because of the provenance of who it was bought from and where it came from.

I completely understand that you disagree but I know that if I had one in my hands today I could sell it on any number of boards for more than I paid because for every one of the 2700 that sold there were multiple people who wanted one and did not get one.

 

[WVsig]

This discussion reminds me a lot of the discussion around the CMP 1911s. Everyone said that they were worthless as collector guns. They were mix master rattle traps and over priced. Yet every single one of them that they have offered up has sold. People are still in line waiting to be called to buy one. People are reselling them for more than they paid even though CMP will ban you from future purchases for doing that. At the time they were first released everyone was saying that you could do better in the open market vs these CMP guns. Since the CMP guns started shipping the USGI 1911 market has continued to climb and the price reset to the cost of the CMP guns. All I am saying is that I believe we will see the same with M1 carbines. This is good if you already have one. It is not so good if you are looking to acquire one.

As a final note the CMP 1911s are pretty nice. They have some replacement parts but they still shoot but they do rattle like a new Colt does.I gifted mine to my father in law who was a Marine is Vietnam and carried on like it there. He enjoys owning a piece of history he can shoot.

 

[Speedo66]

I figure since the Midway guns were imported back to the US, they all have import stamps.

I would think that all things being equal, i.e., two Carbines in the same condition and manufacturer, un-stamped ones will have more value.

 

[35 Whelen]

I am suggesting that 99.9999 of people buying M1carbines are not worried about shooting dimes at 100 yards because anyone who understands the platform does not expect it to do that without some work. By work I mean drifting the sight based on the days windage. If that takes some tools so be it.

If you are shooting minute of man which is really what the rifle was intended for I imagine within 100 yards a proper shooter who knows their rifle can adjust.

I think 99.9999% of carbine owners have bought into wives tale that they're only good for 100 yds. or so. I believed that too until I bought my first one 12 months ago(One of those Ethiopian imports) and found out otherwise.

Minute-of-whatever is of little use if your bullet is blown off target, unless you're happy shooting nice groups that landed.....well....somewhere.

Funny I am not trying to justify anything and have nothing invested. LOL I enjoy a good discussion.

So all this opinion and discussion and you don't own an carbine and/or didn't buy one from Midway?

35W

 

[WVsig]

I think 99.9999% of carbine owners have bought into wives tale that they're only good for 100 yds. or so. I believed that too until I bought my first one 12 months ago(One of those Ethiopian imports) and found out otherwise.

Minute-of-whatever is of little use if your bullet is blown off target, unless you're happy shooting nice groups that landed.....well....somewhere.




So all this opinion and discussion and you don't own an carbine and/or didn't buy one from Midway?

35W

Read much? I stated multiple times I own a non import marked IBM. If you only just got one you are about 15 years behind me Bro. I didn’t buy one of these recent imports from Midway. There were other sources for these which I have been monitoring.

I think 99.999 % of people don’t shoot their M1 carbines at all because too many buy them as collectibles and spend too much time and money looking for correct parts so that when they die the heirs who don’t give a crap can sell it to a pawn broker for pennies on the dollar. LMAO

My statement had nothing to do with the capabilities of the rifle but everything to do with who is buying them and why they are buying them and that this recent importation has reset the market.

 

[35 Whelen]

Read much? I stated multiple times I own a non import marked IBM. If you only just got one you are about 15 years behind me Bro. I didn’t buy one of these recent imports from Midway. There were other sources for these which I have been monitoring.

I think 99.999 % of people don’t shoot their M1 carbines at all because too many buy them as collectibles and spend too much time and money looking for correct parts so that when they die the heirs who don’t give a crap can sell it to a pawn broker for pennies on the dollar. LMAO

My statement had nothing to do with the capabilities of the rifle but everything to do with who is buying them and why they are buying them and that this recent importation has reset the market.

So the answer to the questions I asked would be "Yes." and "No.", respectively. See how easy that was?

Like I said, your posts are a bit difficult to follow....I'm not always sure of the point you're trying to make (Except that those who own carbines with flip sights should always carry a hammer and punch with them when they shoot). But I'm sure you've heard that many times before now.

Yep, sounds like I'm 15 years behind, but nine carbines ahead of you. #10 arrived via FedEx yesterday (Yes!! On a Sunday!!).

35W