Anyone want a Garand (or 600,000 of them)?

[deleteall]

No hyperlink since it's translated, but here'sa report from Italy...

The POLO DI MANTENIMENTO DELLE ARMI LEGGERE (PMAL, "Small Arms Mantainment Compound") of the Italian Armed Forces, located in TERNI, Region of LAZIO (yes, the PMAL is the former "Terni Arsenal") has in storage something like 600'000 GARAND rifles and M1 Carbines, in both the WINCHESTER American-made versions and BERETTA P31 and P30-M781 Italian-made versions. Those guns, which were the backbone of the Italian Armed Forces untill full introduction of the BM59 battle rifle (between the end of the '50s and the end of the '60s), and which served as drill training weapons until the very half of the '80s, now are completely out of service, and their keeping in storage and mantainment is costing service time to the PMAL personnel, and obviously taxpayers money.

The Italian Armed Forces has so made several attempts to clear the room of those dismissed guns. The first, and MAIN followed way, since now has been the ALIENATION: this means that those well-cured, completely polished and working, as-brand-new former ordnance guns have been thrown on the civilian market by the Italian Armed Forces, via the PMAL which opened its doors to the public to sell its guns to the shooters. Almost 60000 Garand rifles have been sold in 5 years, when this program has been started, and at least an equal number of M1 Carbines have been given away. The rifles sold by PMAL are all in mint condition, even thought practically ALL of them saw military drill and training use for almost 40 years, and the M1 Carbines even saw Law Enforcement use until the very and of the '70s.
However, the Italian internal civilian market is not enough to "clear the rooms" of the PMAL; by now, only 1/10 of the M1 Carbines and 1/10 of the GARAND rifles have been given away. And the need for the PMAL to make "tabula rasa" out of those guns so that its personnel can concentrate on the maintenance of the currently issued weaponries and equipments of the Italian Armed Forces is day after day more urgent.

 

[foghornl]

Sooooo

How do we USA folks get our hands on them ? ? ? ? I REALLY need an M1 Carbine to keep my Garand company.

 

[Master Blaster]

I'm surprised someone like Century or AIM hasn't jumped on these, heck the guns probably have enough American made parts in them that they would not have to be rebuilt. If you can import an SAR-1 you should be able to import these.

 

[Langenator]

I don't see why either of them would run afoul of the EBRB. Neither of them has the super evil pistol grip. Yes, they're both semi-auto, I think both have bayonet lugs (not sure on the carbine), but there's no grenade launcher or flash hider. And the Garand can't even take magazines, only clips.

 

[armoredman]

If it falls under the same restrictions of importing foriegn military hardware, it is illegal to re-import American made weapons/vehicles, while it is legal to import foriegn made items.... I have no idea why.....

 

[Jaywalker]

I don't know for sure, but here's a guess.

If they were American-made, then they probably weren't sold to a foreign country for cash. Probably they went over in exchange for some form of Monopoly money like Foreign Military Sales credits. FMS money was appropriated by Congress, then given to a foreign country so that they could spend it back here. Congress wouldn't want the stuff back over here competing with domestic makers. I understand no one makes Garands, but FMS legislation seldom has that kind of exception.

By the same token, a foreign country can't sell them elsewhere without US permission, since in the last respect, they belong to US citizens.

So, where are we? Italy (maybe) can't sell them back here and can't send them anywhere else. They could give them to the US, which could then sell them in the CMP.

I really like that conclusion. Let's wait and see. If I'm right, I want full credit for predicting it. If I'm wrong, let's see if we can delete my post.

Jaywalker

 

[Kinsman]

If I read that right, that's 60,000 rifles in the hands of free men......

 

[MuzzleBlast]

The ones with Italian-made receivers should be C&R eligible, and therefore importable, as long as they were made before 1954. The US-kade ones could probably come in through the CMP, just like the Danish issued rifles were. Of course, I'm applying logic here, which has exactly ZERO to do with gun laws and import restrictions.

 

[LynnKCircle]

There is something about US made military weapons not being re-imported from foreign countries. For example, I've been told that NRA Very Good grade Garands are available in Canada for less than $300.00. Thanks to the changes in Canadian law during the past five years, most Canadians cannot own them. But while a Canadian will gladly sell one to an American, there is no legal way to get it back across the border, even if you have an FFL#1 license. At least this is what I've been told by guys far more knowlegable than I.

However, as someone noted there IS one hope -- the CMP. After all, they've brought in a bunch of Garands during the past few years. It WOULD be nice to see them offer M1 carbines again, that's for certain. But their own web site says they don't expect to have any for a long, long time.

(I've always lusted after a BM59 in 7.62 Nato, but never could afford those I've seen for sale.)

 

[Triad]

I think the problem is an Executive Order signed by Bill Clinton. IIRC, he banned the re-importation of any weapon that had once been US govt property.

 

[LAR-15]

Yeah I think you can blame Komrad Klinton my friends. These are US made guns apparently.

 

[Trebor]

Remeber all the Garand parts kits a few years ago? Those were M-1's bought outright by the Danish government. When they were declared surplus they couldn't be reimported to the U.S. because of the ban on reimporting U.S. made weapons. Instead they were bought by Century and sent to Canada where they were dismantled, the receivers destroyed, and the parts sold as "parts kits."

The Danish Garands the CMP is selling were originally "lend-lease" rifles that the Danish government returned to the U.S. Army when they were declared surplus. The Army then turned them over to the CMP.

The fate of the Italian rifles depends largely on whether they were "lend-lease" rifles or were purchased outright by the Italian government. If they were lend-lease, the CMP might be able to arrange their return the same way the ex-Danish and ex-Greek rifles were returned. If they were purchased outright, the best we can hope for is to see them imported as "parts kits" from Canada again, if Century thinks they can make enough money that way.

 

[c_yeager]

Not too long ago a couple guys got busted for trying to drive a truck full of AMERICAN made Garands in from Canada. They too ran afoul of this STUPID re-importation executive order. We will likely never see these nice cheap Garands within our borders again.

 

[Trebor]

I e-mailed Orest Michaels of the CMP with the info from the first post.

If possible, I'll let you know what he says.

 

[swingset]

Italy has a very stringent, and very hard to get around surplus export law.

There are 24,000 Enfields sitting in a warehouse that CAI & BDL have been working for YEARS to get ahold of, to no avail.

IIRC, Italy forbids foreign buyers of Italian surplus or something to the effect.

In any case, don't hold your breath even if the CMP could get ahold of these, it's going to be a while.

There are 30k or so Greek issue Garands at the CMP right now, but Orest said it will be something like June or July before they're for sale. That's not a rumor, straight from the MAN's mouth a week ago.

 

[EvilOmega]

swingset

Any word on the price of those Greek issue Garands?

 

[Tamara]

I think the problem is an Executive Order signed by Bill Clinton. IIRC, he banned the re-importation of any weapon that had once been US govt property.

Well, golly, since we have a pro-gun President in the White House right now, somebody just write him a little ol' letter and get him to countermand that ol' executive order. While he's at it, maybe he could countermand a couple of the ones his pro-gun daddy signed, too.

 

[Clemson]

For what it is worth, I have a Garand with an import mark on the barrel.

Clemson

 

[Trebor]

For what it is worth, I have a Garand with an import mark on the barrel.

I bet it says "Blue Sky," right? Those were some of the last ones reimported in the '80s, before the ban.

 

[Tamara]

Actually, it was FOPA '86 that opened the floodgates on milsurp importation that had been slammed shut by GCA '68. The second salad days really only lasted three years, before gun control started advancing again with the '89 Bush Ban.

 

[deleteall]

Here's where it gets worse. I found out they're selling for 30-100 euros, which is about $36-$120 US.

 

[Selfdfenz]

from the first post ...to the last post....

elation ......now depression


36$-120$ for a good solid maybe minty M1 ....

and we buy rack grades from the DCM for 400$, the gov paid what for (150$) with tax dollers and I guess we are what? happy to get even that...



S-

 

[Jim K]

The ban on bringing in U.S. military weapons provided to other nations under the military assistance program goes back to GCA '68. The main thrust of the law was to ban mail order sales, but a few U.S. gun makers, notably Connecticut-based Winchester, got Tom Dodd (D-CT) to insert the surplus arms ban and the ban on return of U.S. arms solely to protect themselves. At that time, Winchester was making expensive but poor quality arms ("post-64" guns) and was rapidly losing market share to the less expensive but better quality Remington products. Of course, Winchester could not admit that their products were inferior, so they blamed military surplus. Since Olin had a lot of clout, GCA '68 became in reality the "Winchester Protection Act of 1968".

When the law was changed to again allow military surplus arms to be imported, the clause about "sporting use" was retained, but BATF was allowed to define the term loosely and grant waivers. Many M1 rifles and carbines were brought back under those rules. But Clinton, determined to punish his political enemies any way he could (he didn't care one bit about crime or violence), ordered BATF to stop granting waivers and define "sporting" as "hunting". Bush has yielded to pressure and has never changed that.

NOTE that the old Olin-owned Winchester of 1968 has no connection with the current USRAC, so don't start a boycott of today's Winchester products.

Jim

 

[Trebor]

If the Italian Garands and Carbines are Lend-Lease weapons, they would be allowed back into the U.S. to the control of the U.S. Army under U.S. law. (The army would then turn them over to the CMP) This would probably also get around the Italian law restricting foreign "Sales" of military weapons, because the rifles aren't being "sold," but are just being returned to U.S. control after the Italians were done borrowing them.

Of course, I have no way of knowing if the Italian rifles are lend-lease or were purchased outright. It could even be a little of both. Obviously, the Italian built (Breda and Berretta) M-1's aren't lend-lease.

Even if the weapons are Lend-Lease, the Italian and U.S. governments would still have to strike a deal to return them to U.S. control. It's always possible that the Italians would just scrap them instead.

 

[0007]

MUST......GET....... POSTED......TO.......ITALY......AT.......NEXT......TRANSFER.....