Midway Surplus M1 Carbine

[WVsig]

So the answer to the questions I asked would be "Yes." and "No.", respectively. See how easy that was?

Like I said, your posts are a bit difficult to follow....I'm not always sure of the point you're trying to make (Except that those who own carbines with flip sights should always carry a hammer and punch with them when they shoot). But I'm sure you've heard that many times before now.

Yep, sounds like I'm 15 years behind, but nine carbines ahead of you. #10 arrived via FedEx yesterday (Yes!! On a Sunday!!).

35W

Awesome enjoy them. For me they are nothing more than fun plinker and a piece of history. I liked mine better when cheap Korean surplus ammo and others were available. I have other interests which I have multiples of. My interest in this thread was all the people saying that the Midway guns were overpriced and their origins were a big question mark. The reality is neither of those things are true. Shoot well be safe.

 

[JCooperfan1911]

So are you suggesting making drift adjustments to the sights every time one shoots in a crosswind? That's kind of unrealistic, and my range is but a couple hundred feet from my house and my tools.
I'm not sure the point you're trying to make, but your post is a bit difficult to understand.

35W

The M1 carbine is a 100 yards gun.

it does NOT need much windage at the short ranges it was designed to be used for.

The reason for the trick adjustable doodad sight was it was CHEAPER and FASTER for the women in the factories to set the sight when sighting as the flip sight was sighted by means of a punch and file and was very time consuming vs the crank knob.

 

[amd6547]

I think 99.9999% of carbine owners have bought into wives tale that they're only good for 100 yds. or so. I believed that too until I bought my first one 12 months ago(One of those Ethiopian imports) and found out otherwise.

Minute-of-whatever is of little use if your bullet is blown off target, unless you're happy shooting nice groups that landed.....well....somewhere.




So all this opinion and discussion and you don't own an carbine and/or didn't buy one from Midway?

35W

I shoot my CMP Inland Carbine…15rds, standing off hand, at 100yds.
It served as home defense longarm for a few years. However, before the plandemic I found a deal on an Auto Ordnance M1 Carbine and took a chance on it. Some range work showed it was a suitable replacement for my Inland in the Home Defense role.

 

[amd6547]

M1 Carbine a 100yd gun?

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I thought the "L" sight was set for zero on windage under windless conditions, the front sight was filed down for 100 yard zero elevation, and the user learned Kentucky windage and Tennessee elevation (holding off for different wind speed and direction and distances).
In a combat situation 100 to 300 yds, I can not imagine wanting to be turning the windage knob on the sights using an M1 carbine with adjustment knobs. Zero it at the shooting range and leave it zeroed and don't adjust for windage in the field. Especially in a battle field.

Wind adjustment knobs can get accidentally turned when slipping an M1 Carbine in and out of a tight fitting sleeve-style carry case. It's hard to accidentally get the dovetailed "L" sight to move short of using brass punch and hammer.

 

[jobu07]

I opted to jump on the Midway M1 Carbine buy myself, thought I wasn't going to post pictures of it I've finally been convinced that I want to share what I came up with.

I'm firmly in the camp that prices Midway, RTI, or any of the games in town are a little out of hand. But I reasoned a) I wanted one; b) the prices probably aren't coming to come down; and c) it would make a nice companion to my Inland CMP gun.

So I purchased a Winchester G-VG. I had no issues with the purchase process or with my shopping cart being emptied. I bought it that Tuesday and had it in my hands that Thursday.

I've attached a few photos of it with the box it came in, the ugly ugly import stamp, the roll mark and some overall pictures. I can't find any non-Winchester parts on it, other than the rear sight, but that's not to say it doesn't have them in there. It shoots great on the my steel plates at 100 yards and prints pretty little groups in the paper. I can't complain. Regardless of what people are or aren't willing to pay, I think it is a good thing we are bringing more firearms into the country so folks who appreciate them can get them into their hands.

 

[35 Whelen]

I thought the "L" sight was set for zero on windage under windless conditions, the front sight was filed down for 100 yard zero elevation, and the user learned Kentucky windage and Tennessee elevation (holding off for different wind speed and direction and distances).
In a combat situation 100 to 300 yds, I can not imagine wanting to be turning the windage knob on the sights using an M1 carbine with adjustment knobs. Zero it at the shooting range and leave it zeroed and don't adjust for windage in the field. Especially in a battle field.

Wind adjustment knobs can get accidentally turned when slipping an M1 Carbine in and out of a tight fitting sleeve-style carry case. It's hard to accidentally get the dovetailed "L" sight to move short of using brass punch and hammer.

Pretty close regarding the sights, but the flip sights, according to the "Basic Field Manual U.S. Carbine, Caliber .30, M1 May 20, 1942"-

4. Rear Sight- a. Models of the carbine initially issued will be equipped with an L-type rear sight.....The apertures provided are computed for ranges of 150 and 300 yards. With this sight it will be necessary to aim off the target to secure intermediate changes in range and windage corrections. But this is the interesting part- b. Later models of the carbine will be equipped with an adjustable sight generally similar to that shown in other figures in this manual.

So even in May 1942, there were already plans being made to replace the flip sight with an adjustable sight. Reckon why?

So unless you or I are active duty military (I'm not), we're not going into combat, we're just going to shoot targets or maybe hunt a little or possibly compete with a Carbine, so making windage adjustments is no big deal. When I shoot my carbines I much prefer my 200 yd. steel gong because it allows a much better sight picture than that of my 100 yd. target. At that range, when the wind is blowing my bullets this way or that, I correct the POI with the windage knob. This allows me utilize that good sight picture rather than holding somewhere off in the mesquites to allow for the wind. When I finish shooting, I return the windage to its original position. Some of my handloads use heavy-ish cast bullets that drop quite a bit more than the original load. I've found that in many cases with these heavier bullets, the 200 yd. sight gives me near perfect 100 yd. POI.

Earlier this year I bought an early production Inland that had a flip sight. What a pain, I sold it and won't own another.

35W

 

[Speedo66]

Pretty close regarding the sights, but the flip sights, according to the "Basic Field Manual U.S. Carbine, Caliber .30, M1 May 20, 1942"-

4. Rear Sight- a. Models of the carbine initially issued will be equipped with an L-type rear sight.....The apertures provided are computed for ranges of 150 and 300 yards. With this sight it will be necessary to aim off the target to secure intermediate changes in range and windage corrections. But this is the interesting part- b. Later models of the carbine will be equipped with an adjustable sight generally similar to that shown in other figures in this manual.

So even in May 1942, there were already plans being made to replace the flip sight with an adjustable sight.

I had thought the adjustable sight on my '43 Underwood was a replacement. All other features on the gun are early original, including push
safety, high wood, I shaped oiler hole, no bayonet lug, flat bolt, etc.

Now I wonder, based on the date and mention of an adjustable sight in your manual, if the sight could be original? A little esoteric, but any experts know when Underwood, based on serial #, switched to an adjustable rear sight?

 

[35 Whelen]

I believe it may have been late '44, maybe even later, that adjustable sights were implemented.

35W

 

[CapnMac]

Now I wonder, based on the date and mention of an adjustable sight in your manual, if the sight could be original?

IIRC the adjustable sight was introduced in 1943, and common to all Carbines by 1944. Replacement during wartime is not exactly well-documented, sadly. Would have been probably at the Brigade or higher armorer level.

 

[Speedo66]

I believe it may have been late '44, maybe even later, that adjustable sights were implemented.

35W

IIRC the adjustable sight was introduced in 1943, and common to all Carbines by 1944. Replacement during wartime is not exactly well-documented, sadly. Would have been probably at the Brigade or higher armorer level.

Thanks to you both for your answers.

I did a little research and it seems only Winchester and Inland produced new Carbines with the adjustable sights, all other makes were retro fitted. Also read sometimes the barrels sat around for a while, so the date on the barrel may not be the same as the date of the finished gun.

But they also fitted those sights in the field, not all installations were done at an armory, which may explain why mine was left with its early features.

Also, the sights were notoriously inaccurate, the flip sights were brought to point of impact by filing the front sight, which were made oversize with this in mind.

Once the adjustable sights were added, they often did not re-adjust the front sights, so the range markings on the rear sight often are not accurate.

 

[WVsig]

I opted to jump on the Midway M1 Carbine buy myself, thought I wasn't going to post pictures of it I've finally been convinced that I want to share what I came up with.

I'm firmly in the camp that prices Midway, RTI, or any of the games in town are a little out of hand. But I reasoned a) I wanted one; b) the prices probably aren't coming to come down; and c) it would make a nice companion to my Inland CMP gun.

So I purchased a Winchester G-VG. I had no issues with the purchase process or with my shopping cart being emptied. I bought it that Tuesday and had it in my hands that Thursday.

I've attached a few photos of it with the box it came in, the ugly ugly import stamp, the roll mark and some overall pictures. I can't find any non-Winchester parts on it, other than the rear sight, but that's not to say it doesn't have them in there. It shoots great on the my steel plates at 100 yards and prints pretty little groups in the paper. I can't complain. Regardless of what people are or aren't willing to pay, I think it is a good thing we are bringing more firearms into the country so folks who appreciate them can get them into their hands.

View attachment 1008557 View attachment 1008558 View attachment 1008559 View attachment 1008560 View attachment 1008561 View attachment 1008562 View attachment 1008563 View attachment 1008564

Nice. Was it high or low wood? Is the stock Winchester as well?

 

[trackskippy]

Also, the sights were notoriously inaccurate, the flip sights were brought to point of impact by filing the front sight, which were made oversize with this in mind.

Once the adjustable sights were added, they often did not re-adjust the front sights, so the range markings on the rear sight often are not accurate.

This seems to have been a common problem once the guns were updated. Four of the five Ive had, had to have the front sight filed so the rear sights markings would jive. The fifth was already too low and is what it is.

Im guessing that when they did the upgrades, four of the five got a new front sight, and the fifth gun must have had one that was previously zeroed. Compared to the others, its post was noticeably shorter.

If you look around on the CMP's site, they have a section there that talks about this and gives the numbers for removing metal from the front sight so you dont overdo it. I took a jewelers file and my calipers to the range with me, set the rear sight on "100", and took my time and "did the math".

Its not hard, you just need to start with a good, defined aiming point, like a 6 o'clock hold on a black bull, take your time and shoot good group, and then do the math and file away. I adjusted the sight to shoot POA/POI at the 6 o'clock aiming point. You only need to shoot that one first good group and remove from the front sight what the numbers tell you. Once youve done that, it should be very close the next time you shoot. It doesnt take much ammo wise to get zeroed. After that, its a whole nother thing.

 

[Speedo66]

Once the barrel bands with the bayonet lugs were issued towards the end of the war, installation required the front sights to be removed.

Who knows if they put the same front sights back on the carbines they originally were on?

 

[jobu07]

Nice. Was it high or low wood? Is the stock Winchester as well?

It's low wood - I just realized I only took pictures of one side of the gun... The stock is totally devoid of markings except for a 59 at the bottom of the pistol grip. Maybe it's a rack number. Strangely it came with a BW marked magazine as well, I believe that's the code for Winchester. The mags weren't available for purchase yet when the carbines initially came up for sale and I know I didn't lose one of my mags into the sealed box. The only thing I can think of is it erroneously packaged with the carbine? It wasn't in the mag well, nor was it in wax paper, just loose in the bubble wrap next to the stock.

 

[eastbank]

my IBM carbine as it came from DCM in 8-63.

 

[WVsig]

It's low wood - I just realized I only took pictures of one side of the gun... The stock is totally devoid of markings except for a 59 at the bottom of the pistol grip. Maybe it's a rack number. Strangely it came with a BW marked magazine as well, I believe that's the code for Winchester. The mags weren't available for purchase yet when the carbines initially came up for sale and I know I didn't lose one of my mags into the sealed box. The only thing I can think of is it erroneously packaged with the carbine? It wasn't in the mag well, nor was it in wax paper, just loose in the bubble wrap next to the stock.

They had mags Midway choose not to sell them. My guess is one made into the package. Midway wasn’t the only one who got some of these guns. I am not sure if Midway pulled them to be sold later or PW Arms pulled them before shipping. Someone missed that one which is a score for you.

If you pull the buttplate you can count the number of holes. If it’s 3 then it is Winchester IIRC they are the only ones with 3 holes in the butt of the stock.

Nice gun you did well IMHO.

 

[WVsig]

my IBM carbine as it came from DCM in 8-63.

Very nice.

 

[Tommygunn]

IIRC the adjustable sight was introduced in 1943, and common to all Carbines by 1944. Replacement during wartime is not exactly well-documented, sadly. Would have been probably at the Brigade or higher armorer level.

Maybe .... but my carbine has the early flip sight and the barrel us marked "2-44." ....

 

[jobu07]

They had mags Midway choose not to sell them. My guess is one made into the package. Midway wasn’t the only one who got some of these guns. I am not sure if Midway pulled them to be sold later or PW Arms pulled them before shipping. Someone missed that one which is a score for you.

If you pull the buttplate you can count the number of holes. If it’s 3 then it is Winchester IIRC they are the only ones with 3 holes in the butt of the stock.

Nice gun you did well IMHO.

I'll have to check it out tonight. I don't recall how many holes were in the butt when I had the plate off while cleaning. Thanks for the tip. I would concur that someone screwed up on the mag.

 

[CapnMac]

but my carbine has the early flip sight and the barrel us marked "2-44."

Barrels could be replaced at the Battalion/Regiment level, where they would have not been under a directive to change the sight.
Some of the US contractors ran short of barrels, and took what was available from other contractors to complete their contracts, too.
These convolutions are why Bruce Canfield has like 2.5 books on the topic []

 

[Madcap_Magician]

Here's mine from Midway, an IBM in VG-F.

 

[griff383]

I got a Standard Products (F), no lug, and owe pics. It's covered in all kinds of fun stuff so I'll do a before and after thing when I have time.

Been wanting an M1 Carbine for the better part of a decade but never had the best opportunities to procure one that I was confident in. I've accepted the fact that I over paid to some degree but I got it from a reputable source and that's about all you can ask for these days.

 

[Speedo66]

@griff383
You may not have overpaid, you may have just paid the new market price.

Midway’s sale may have moved the market price up. We previous owners rejoice! lol

 

[JCooperfan1911]

One can expect to pay anywhere from $3000 to $5000 for an excellent condition carbine these days,

Insanity reigns.