Military Standards for Accuracy

[rero360]

I know for the Army qual its 20 rounds from the prone supported in two minutes and 20 rounds from the prone unsupported in two minutes, targets ranging from 50 meters to 300, can't remember how many of each. with pop ups its 36 or better for expert and for the alt paper qual its 38 to get expert. I can't remember what the minimums are for the others, being that I've always shot a 34 or better, sometimes expert, mostly sharpshooter.

 

[CannibalCrowley]

Every service is different. The one already posted for the USMC is correct, except for the fact that scoring is a 1 or 0 point system now. If you're on the target, it's one point. If not, than it's 0.

The post above seemed to lay out the system that's used in boot camp. As for qual in the fleet, what you said is true except for the fact that you get 2 points for shots in the x-ring at the 200 yd line.

 

[gregthehand]

SAW qual in the Army is a two part event. The first is done from the prone and on paper. The targets are at simulated 200 m (if my memory serves me right) and you have to put 3 shots on each target. This part was easy I was able to hit each one three times. Sometimes I would short shoot a burst and then come back and single tap to get my complete qual on this stage. The next stage was done from a standing supported position firing at targets up to 500 m out. These would usually pop up three at a time. This part was also very easy. Suprisingly many people failed this range. I usually got expert and one time "eagle eyed" hitting every available target.

Pistol qual in the Army is also very easy. I think the furthest target is 25 m. I honestly don't remember how many shots at each target, but it's basically like many of your CHL courses out there. When I went there was no pre-determined way to shoot. Just however you liked and as safely as possible. I always eagle eyed this course of fire as did almost everyone in my unit.

M203 was wee bit hard if you didn't know how to use the M203 right. I prefer just using the top sight only up to about 150 m. The M203 does have a good range to it. I think of it as a very effective weapon, and was my weapon of choice when we went down range. The furthest you shot was 250 m if I remember right, and I can't remember how many shots. Once again I always got expert at this probably because I got a whole lot of practice.

Hand grenades to me was a hard course. This because I really can't throw worth a dang accuratley. I honestly don't remember much other than it was done with sim grenades and blasting caps stuck in the top. At the end we did have to throw 2 live grenades which I hated and they scared the crap out of me. I never carried live hand grenades and didn't want to.

Rifle to me was always fun, I loved going to the qual range. I hated the Battle Sight Zero Range as it was run by civilians there were a bunch of jerks. At BSZ you fire a series of 3 round single shots onto paper simulating 300 m from a supported position. Once your done and grouping nicecly in the center of your target, your done and have to remember to adjust your rear elevation down one click (to 5/16 if I remember right maybe someone can help me). It's usually a good idea to remember how many clicks which way you were from fluch and write it down on a piece of paper. The stick it in the buttstock of your weapon. This was because the armory would sometimes issue whoevers rifle to units doing nothing but close order drill. Sometimes people would jack with your sights as a joke. This happened to me one time and I barely qualed. The range as said before is 40 round up to 300 m at pop-up targets. i've also done the Marine Corps qual range and I like the Army's better. You start in a supported foxhole position and do 20 rounds then move to a prone postion and fire 20 more. Usually afterwords you will stay in the prone and dawn your Pro Mask and fire 25 shots at the 25 m target with your mask on. This part is so silly it does not even make sense to me why they do it. I never eagle eyed the rifle qual but often made a 37-39.

I've also qualed on the .50 Cal, gone through many M1A2 tank tables, the AT4, Mk-19, the M-60, and the M240G. All were good weapons but would take a whole lot of time to explain the qual. One more note as well on the waepons is that they can all be qualified or zeroed, etc on the FATS simulator. This to me was an invaluable training tool since we didn't have to check out weapons, go to the range, burn up ammo, etc. Everything was set-up and we didn't even need protective equipment of any kind. Once you zeroed, and then qualed you were saved in the system under your name and you could bring it up at any time. Afterwords you could go through different firefight scenarios and practice shooting at moving targets which to me invauable. Many people can score expert and then not be able to hit a moving target at all.

 

[USMC6177]

For the USMC the yearly qualification is for every marine. This is the USMC's way to make sure that every marine no matter what thier actual MOS has the knowledge and ability to operate an M-16. The score you acheive is also linked to your promotion score. The better you shoot the better chance you have to get promoted.
The infantry MOS individuals have other training that relates more to actual combat conditions.

And the Marine Corps is comprised of nothing but Marine Snipers. Nobody cleans toilets or drives trucks. They're all Snipers. And they can all neuter a gnat at 500 metres in a hurricane. But that's only with their super-accurate M15 rifles with the precision guided scopes...

I know all this because I was told it... In bars, in gun shows, on the interwoob, usually not at a range tho... Wonder why...

This comment is far from high road I would suggest you stop making such generalizing statements about marines being liars. It sounds like either you hold a grudge against a certain branch of the military or you were talking to people who are not holding themselves to the high standard that a Marine should...

I had a friend who became a marine sniper, and it has been about 10 years since he told me this, but I think he said that they had to be able to hit the cranio-ocular cavity with five of five shots at 500m with an M-16. Offhand.

Can anybody straighten me out on that? Every time I think of it it seems unbelievable.

Unless you know of a "cranio-ocular cavity" target I would say your friend is full of it. Or ask him to show it to you in a MCO.

 

[scout26]

USMC6177,

I believe that the poster was refering to the posers and wannabe's that tend to inhabit those places, not actual Marines. As someone once said, "There were around 500 Navy SEALS that served in Vietnam and I've met all 20,000 of them."

 

[DRZinn]

Actually, I've seen it done. I watched two SOG Marines out at the Lejeune range (they live out there, literally) screwing around and betting each other 10 bucks a round. The one put 4 out of 10 in the head at 500 and the other put 7 out of 10 in the head at 500. They were both offhand.

Hmmm... SOG doesn't exactly use any old stock M-16's.

 

[MarkDido]

The quals for the Navy are:

Marksman - Show up for the qual drunk, but NOT throw up on the Rangemaster.

Sharpshooter - Show up for the qual sober, but hung over and NOT throw up on the Rangemaster.

Expert - Show up sober, bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, actually fire the weapon WITHOUT shooting the Rangemaster.

And before I get flamed.... This is humor and I'm a 23 year retired Navy vet
who managed to NOT shoot the Rangemaster with the pistol AND the rifle!

 

[def4pos8]

I'd like bogie to expand his comments regarding Marines.

My son was just a wrench-bending mechanic on an AAV-7 but shot #2 (That's EXPERT for those of you from St Louis.) in his series at Parris Island and spent WAY too much time clearing buildings in Anbar for his own good. I imagine he did his share of latrine duty when in CONUS but didn't have much time for that in The Sandbox.

He continues to shoot very well, considering the residual nerve damage in his hands from the burns. It's been more than two years since The Boom. Most of the shrapnel has been removed but some will have to stay unless the infections return. His arms are flesh-toned again but you can see the staple patterns from the grafts. Those who have met him recently don't notice the damage to his face. He limps some as his right ankle and various ligaments/tendons aren't there any more.

Eight Marines died next to him in his 'trac.

But the wonderful folks at Brooke Medical Center kept him alive, despite the "should have dieds".

Be DAMNED careful what you say about Marines.

 

[sevesteen]

I went through USAF basic in 84. Half a day classroom training on the M16, then half a day at the range. Range time was done with an M16 converted to .22 rimfire. First time I'd ever shot a real gun, and the targets seemed large and close for a rifle--I'm pretty sure they were at least 10 inches square. Distance was not over 25 yards, and could have been considerably closer.

People going into security or law enforcement had to qualify, but I wasn't one of them, and don't remember the scores. The rest of us just had to get "50 shots towards the woods"--10 shots to sight in, then 10 shots each prone, sitting, kneeling and standing. You got a medal for a 360/400 score, and I do remember that qualification was well below that. We were told that those of us with with no experience would do better than those with moderate experience, because the people who thought they could shoot wouldn't listen to directions. I missed the medal by 9 points, and I know which shots were responsible--2 shots standing I knew right off were flyers. The guy who had his target scored just before me initially had over 400, but he also had more than 40 holes. Apparently someone else shot his target as well. They wound up counting the best 40.

If your gun malfunctioned (happened often) you weren't allowed to clear it yourself, you were to keep the rifle pointed downrange and raise your trigger hand for help.

I was in for 4 years. That was the last time I even touched an Air Force weapon.

 

[STW]

This is the USMC's way to make sure that every marine no matter what their actual MOS has the knowledge and ability to operate an M-16. The score you achieve is also linked to your promotion score. The better you shoot the better chance you have to get promoted.

It even allows for some shortcuts. Ten to 15 years ago I had a friend with motorpool MOS who made the Marine Corp rifle team when she'd been in about four years. The next year she won at Camp Perry and the commandant made her a staff sergeant. She might have been a corporal before that fateful match.

 

[Can'thavenuthingood]

I joined the Corps in 1968 and trained with the M-14.

We had a week of snapping in where we would set our sight alignment and sight picture. Once you had that figured out where you didn't have to contort your body to find the target, the rest was relatively easy.
With solid alignment and picture the rifle came to rest where it was originally set.

We trained in the use of the sling for offhand, sitting, kneeling and prone positions. Endless cocking, aiming, squeezing and firing an empty rifle over and over again at a 6 o'clock bullseye.

Qualification day was a biggy. The DI (Sgt. Napier) said anyone who fired Expert, he would personally buy a Whopper, fries and coke from Burger King. I was one of six out of 75 or so that hit Expert and I had a 226.

True to his word, Sgt. Napier gathered the entire Platoon around in a circle, called out our names and we sat in the center of the Platoon with our Whoppers, fries and coke and enjoyed every bite. The aroma of fast food wafting through the night air.

Got off track there.
In answer to OP's question, out of 75 or so recruits, only 6 of us shot to the Expert level. This was after a week of rifle training by the Edson Range rifle coach and snapping in, a really dull, dry experience. Then 4 days of live firing prior to qualification day.

I maintained that rifle Expert level through the transition to the M-16. Then later I shot Expert with .38 and .45ACP as a First Mech on KC-130F's out of Futema and DaNang.

I cannot speak Corps wide but the weapons I shot were all off the rack from the local armory. The Marine Armorer's did a fine job of keeping those rack weapons fit for use at anytime. It seemed every weapon I used acted or reacted the same to all my inputs for sighting and shooting. I shot what they handed me.

In Egypt we had to form and man up our own perimeter gun emplacements. We had ejection seat mechs, admin types, hydraulic and powerplant mechs posted with M-16's and M-60's.
This was just after we bombed Gadaffi and we were hoping he'd come out to play.
Staff NCO's all carried 1911's with full mags in place, just needed to chamber a round to attack.

Wake Island http://www.cv6.org/1941/wake/wake.htm is an example of every Marine being a rifleman first.

This got long.

Vick

 

[DRZinn]

Qualification day was a biggy. The DI (Sgt. Napier) said anyone who fired Expert, he would personally buy a Whopper, fries and coke from Burger King. I was one of six out of 75 or so that hit Expert and I had a 226.

Hmmm. Some things don't change much. When I qualified the PMI (Sgt Rock - yeah, I know) had said she'd buy Burger King for the company high shooter. I shot a 240.

 

[XDKingslayer]

Hmmm... SOG doesn't exactly use any old stock M-16's.

The M-16s they had were no different than mine.

 

[flashman70]

You'd be suprised... I've seen a lot of gent's on our Army qual ranges clean up on targets presented at 200 to 300 meters and end up missing every 50 meter target that presented itself.

As I recollect, it was the 25 or 50 meter targets that wouldn't fall as I was qualifying. I still assert that they were so full of holes my rounds were passing through without knocking them down. I would yell out in protest to the scorer, but he didn't agree and I only shot Sharpshooter.

 

[Limeyfellow]

I know for an M16 and M4 to pass the accuracy requirement to be accepted into military service has to be at least 4MOA according to the guys at the FN plant, but does anyone know the accuracy requirement of handguns and shotguns to be accepted by the military?

 

[highfive]

I have only qualified with the M-16 (M-4) and the M-203 in the army I love the 203.

Rifle
Expert 36-40

Sharpshooter 30-36

Marksman 22-30 It should be 24 but they do 22 why? I don't know
And I don't know why i had the same shooting as gregthehand, never eagle eye but seems to always get between 37-39 lol Maybe one target is rigged, lol

 

[BulldogUSMC]

Semper Fi,Def4.Tell that Marine to keep his head up and to get well soonest.

Shot a 229 in boot camp.Spent a week sighting in,then several days on live fire before qual day.Got to fam fire the .45.At MP school,finally got to qualify on the .45,but don't remember the course.Also did the 12gauge.Getting ready for Desert Shield/Storm,qual with M16,.45,12gauge,SAW,M60,and the .50.Since I carried an M60,I had to do a little extra on that one.but anytime you get to melt a barrel,doesn't get any better!!

 

[FW]

Quote:
I had a friend who became a marine sniper, and it has been about 10 years since he told me this, but I think he said that they had to be able to hit the cranio-ocular cavity with five of five shots at 500m with an M-16. Offhand.

Can anybody straighten me out on that? Every time I think of it it seems unbelievable.

That aint no rack grade m16. if it was he is a damn fine shot. Your friend was talking about headshots. And at 500 meters off hand thats amazing.Not to call him a liar but I would want to know more facts.

If your friend said that, he IS a liar.

 

[gregthehand]

You know what's crazy is all my buds who were Marines always talk about how much superior Marine marksmanship training is over the Army's. But we spend longer in Basic doing BRM. We shoot at pop up targets not stationary with all of our gear on, we don't get a fancy glove etc. Our targets are a green that matches the earth, and dissapear faster. I spent the first 4 weeks of basic "clicking in" using a special tool that fit into your muzzle break and you rested a penny on. Your battle buddy always set beside you and told you what you were doing wrong etc. I'm really not trying to start a quarl but I just find it odd everytime I talk to a marine about their training and they didn't do the same amount of stuff we did....

 

[M60]

You know what's crazy is all my buds who were Marines always talk about how much superior Marine marksmanship training is over the Army's. But we spend longer in Basic doing BRM. We shoot at pop up targets not stationary with all of our gear on, we don't get a fancy glove etc. Our targets are a green that matches the earth, and dissapear faster. I spent the first 4 weeks of basic "clicking in" using a special tool that fit into your muzzle break and you rested a penny on. Your battle buddy always set beside you and told you what you were doing wrong etc. I'm really not trying to start a quarl but I just find it odd everytime I talk to a marine about their training and they didn't do the same amount of stuff we did....

I agree. Marines (for whom I have the upmost respect) Shoot very well. But in Army boot in '88, Marksmanship was pushed very hard. It was a big deal to shoot expert. (39/40 for me. Highest score in the company) I got treated alot better after BRM was over. Those that didn't shoot expert still got treated like Poo poo. When I was in (Aviation) we qualified twice a year. I don't know what the grunts did.

Mark.


__________________

 

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

SO_STE, .308

1 moa, varying distance

2" group diameter per hundred yards, out to 600

12" group (head) at 600 yards

__________________________


st

 

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

Quote:
Quote:
I had a friend who became a marine sniper, and it has been about 10 years since he told me this, but I think he said that they had to be able to hit the cranio-ocular cavity with five of five shots at 500m with an M-16. Offhand.

Can anybody straighten me out on that? Every time I think of it it seems unbelievable.

That aint no rack grade m16. if it was he is a damn fine shot. Your friend was talking about headshots. And at 500 meters off hand thats amazing.Not to call him a liar but I would want to know more facts.

If your friend said that, he IS a liar.

he isn't a liar.

he's a damned liar.




ST

 

[JKimball]

Unless you know of a "cranio-ocular cavity" target I would say your friend is full of it. Or ask him to show it to you in a MCO.

I've seen such targets (see attachment) but I don't have any idea if the military uses them. I haven't kept in touch with my friend, so I can't really follow up with him. (What's MCO?)

he isn't a liar.

he's a damned liar.

Sam, I might be able to track him down if you want to tell him that to his face. Or even within 500 meters of his face. haha

I'm just kidding, but you're half right. I know he isn't a liar. His integrity is worth a lot more to him than my being impressed with his shooting is. If there is something inaccurate in what I said it is only because I remembered it wrong. I tried to make that clear in my original post.

If there aren't any marine snipers on the board that can weigh in, I'll be satisfied with XDKingslayer's post of having seen it done, if not exactly what I described, then close enough. Thanks.

 

[absolut_beethoven]

My South African marksman badge from my army (anti-aircraft) stint in 1973.



I don't recall the standards, but I got all 10 in the bulls eye standing up at 100m. All 10 in the bulls eye lying down at 200m. And only two or three in the bulls eye at 300m, with a few more on the target and a few complete misses.

Not good enough for a gold or silver badge, but considering my old issued FN Fal and the circumstances, I was happy.

 

[Mr Kablammo]

I was just talking to a Marine who stated that the shooter is allowed 4.5 MOA and the gun is allowed 4.5 MOA; total 9 MOA. Maybe I can follow up on this in a couple of weeks.