military surplus rifle for a project?

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Sam, I understand you appreciate a sporterized Mosin. That is all well and good. Considering Tikkas are among the rarer Mosins (there were only 24,000 M91/30's and less than 50,000 m91's ever made), I see something else entirely. In any case, in fairness, I don't know what base that is and will give credit. Holler, whose base exactly did you use? Who, in your opinion, makes a quality receiver base for a Mosin?
 
No worries. Just trying to be nice and move things along. (FWIW, I only own one sporterized rifle, and when the funds allow, it will be made whole.)
 
Sam, I understand you appreciate a sporterized Mosin. That is all well and good. Considering Tikkas are among the rarer Mosins (there were only 24,000 M91/30's and less than 50,000 m91's ever made), I see something else entirely. In any case, in fairness, I don't know what base that is and will give credit. Holler, whose base exactly did you use? Who, in your opinion, makes a quality receiver base for a Mosin?
http://www.rocksolidind.com/
 
Great discussion. my problem is that with all of the great bolt action hunting rifles out there I like to keep milsurp in original configuration. But the discussion is good.
 
Well, you certainly aren't going to buy a military surplus rifle and the parts to make it into a sporter that anyone wants to look at for even twice what a (often guaranteed sub-M.O.A.) commercial .308 bolt action rifle can be had for these days.

It is certainly possible to buy a $300 mil-surp (if you can find any worth that little these days) and add $1,000 worth of parts and labor and come up with a gun that will nearly shoot as well as an off-the-shelf $300 rifle.

It really doesn't make a whole lot of sense any more. The heyday of sporterized rifles (nice-ish ones anyway) was back when they could be had for $10-$20 out of a barrel at the hardware store, and a gunsmith's labor was cheap. Nowadays you can buy lots of bolt-on parts which kind of take the place of a real gunsmith's time and skill, but they still aren't cheap. And the results still don't generally stack up well against what you could buy off the shelf for insanely low prices these days.
 
when i think sporterized, i think a more modern stock, maybe scope, etc.. i plan on leaving whatever i get in military configurations, i like the full stocks with an upper handguard, i like the sights.. i actually like them in that configuration, my concern was mostly due to the cost of ammo.. as for finding .311 bullets i currently reload for my nagant and .311 bullets still dont have much variety to them, not like .308s or even .323s for that matter which is why id also consider 8mm mauser

i REALLY like the way the K31 clips are made though, i think that protecting the nose of the bullets like that would make them a lot safer to store on stripper clips and packed into an ammo can where you can just open a can, grab a few, and go do whatever it is you need to do, and ill most likely get one at some point, i just dont think its right for the particular rifle im looking for right now and about a 95% chance ill go with a mauser.. either a czech VZ-24.. or a barreled K98 action

actually, im leaning towards a K98K restoration project starting with the frame.. military style stock, new trigger, new 8mm barrel contoured to the military mause contour, set of k98k sights, some fittings for the stock to hand-carve a brand new one.. in the end id have a pretty much all brand new k98k mauser in the best possible condition and zero collectability, identical in every way to an original.. dont try to convince me to buy one already redone, or one thats all original, its work i enjoy doing
 
you know, id be inclined to keep my mosin nagant, it still has its military stock, though it wasnt in the greatest of shape with a lot of scratches, dings, scuffs.. i still managed to capture that red hue to it..

problem is though finding .311 bullets is a pain in the rear, the stripper clips dont even work particularly well, they fit into the cutout for them, but often the cartridges wont go in unless the angle is just right, and that bolt handle being forward is a bit annoying at best.. i have to remove my hand from the stock/trigger, move it forward, pull the handle up, back, forward, down, and then back to the trigger, of which the straight comb of it i find to be rather uncomfortable

the actual gun itself, sure, its reliable, easy to handle, i dont even mind the sights.. its just those small things, the comb of the stock, the location of the bolt handle, stripper clip reliabiltiy, the .311 bullets for reloading that make it so annoying for me to actually use.. and i think those are way too many issues to work out.. id need a new stock, to completely relocate the bolt handle which in itself is probably impossible, chamber it for something easier to find reloading components for... its just not worth it when i could just buy something like a K31, steyr M95, or a mauser and have all those issues taken care of

anyway, we've discussed the K31 and the mausers.. what about the 8mm steyr M1895? (as i said, im OK with staying with 8mm mauser).. what known issues are there with this rifle? how hard would it be to find replacement parts for should anything break?.

i know most people use military surplus rifles for the occasional recreation shooting, or just as a wall hanger, but myself, i actually prefer a decent bolt action over my AK-74, i prefer the harder hitting, more accurate, deeper penetrating nature of bolt action cartridges so whichever one i upgrade to is going to be my primary rifle for everything.. if i had one that didnt have those issues the mosin had, id use it over my AK if i needed anything for any kind of defense.. in fact, i find myself grabbing my 20" M38 mosin nagant OVER my shotgun if i hear a noise i may need to check out (tons of wildlife here including bears)

this is why barrel life, and thus the ability to rebarrel should one be shot out or damaged, finding replacement parts, the reliability and ease of stripper clips since ill be relying on them more than magazines, and of course, the cost of ammunition all become important factors, and i dont want to rely on surplus ammo that could dry up, maybe even be banned and leave me with something i cant shoot, which is why its important i find something that has brass and bullets readily available for reloading

ive decided against the K31 due to the bolt locking inside the barrel.. though i do intend to stay with a military configuration, i dont want to have to buy additional rifles for when one gets shot out because those rifles may not always be available.. does the bolt in the steyr-mannlicher 1895 rifle lock in the same way as the K31?
I don't reload for the 91/30's I just shoot surplus in them, but I do reload for the PSL and SVT...just too big a pain in the hind end to clean to even my low standards. I have not had problems finding the right bullets or brass. What I did is buy a few hundred partisan factory loads and just reload that brass. I tend to reload them pretty light as I don't want to stress the old SVT that much, and it is such fun to take to the range....others shoot it more then me.

I am lucky enough to have a cabelas about 2hrs from me, last time I was there they had the 311 bullets in several flavors....perhaps the shortage is coming to an end.
 
Great discussion. my problem is that with all of the great bolt action hunting rifles out there I like to keep milsurp in original configuration. But the discussion is good.
Good for you.....

You might also look at the MAS 38. That is in 7.5 French, but basically a French 308. I they are a pretty good deal in the market right now and are very well made rifles. That is another option you may want to think of if you want something along the lines of a 308 bolt gun.

It is heavy and well made, and there is also the 49/56 that is an automatic. Both are very nice to shoot.
 
"To the O.P., How serious of a rifleman are you, how much experience do you have shooting different types of rifles, cartridges and under what kind of conditions (range or field, cold freezing weather, wet rainy, etc.)?"


Obviously not very, and not a lot. The mooted questions are all based on fantasy-land decisions based on reading a lot and shooting a little. Shooting out barrels? Protecting bullet tips by desiring fully enclosed (Swiss) stripper clips? Etc., etc., etc... none of it makes any sense to anyone who's handled this stuff.

To the OP: Go buy yourself a decent rifle of some sort and go shoot the crap outta it. If you are geared towards wanting something military, grab an FR-8 as Sam has advised. It does about everything you already want. Reload for it and learn. But as for your current plans and dreams... you can learn the hard way at great expense, or you can learn from other folks errors in the past. What we have learned is that you can go to Walmart and buy a better rifle for $300 than you can build for $1500. If you want to learn that lesson the hard way, have at it. Just please start with someone elses Bubba-Rifle, 'cause you're gonna be his kissin' cousin and there's no sense ruinining something original when you can start with something that's already been ruined and ruin it more... or less.

If it were me, and I really wanted to Bubba... I'd look at using Carcano and Arisaka actions. Both are cheap, THOUSANDS of previously Bubbad rifles are available CHEAP, both are as strong as the proverbial brick house, and neither is particularly desirable once previously Bubbad. Drill and tap away...




Willie

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Personally, I have a very soft spot for military surplus bolt-action rifles. Just so many neat ways to fill the need! And I think the plan of buying a (GOOD) barreled action and building it back into original fighting trim is a fine, and fun, plan -- as long as it is approached as just a hobby/fun thing to do and not because it will save money.

(Though carving a stock yourself, and having it come out looking like the original military stock will be quite a daunting piece of work.)

I also love the idea of dedicating one's self to regular and extensive practice with that one rifle and shooting it until you need to replace the barrel, but I have to admit it is hard to believe that this plan will be followed through on.

Few people have the patience, the dedication, a reason, or the finances to put the many 10s of thousands of rounds through an old Mauser that this would require.

But my hat is most heartily off to the OP if he succeeds in these goals. PLEASE post progress reports! We want to follow along!
 
@ Jason41987
Have you looked into picking up a Yugo mauser 8mm either model 24/47 or the 48 ?
I have several of these that I have rebarreled to .308 win., .243, 25-06 and 257 Roberts with a prethreaded Adams and Bennet barrel.
I sporterize the original stock and drill and tap them for scopes.
I mention the Yugo Mauser because it is a shorter action and fits the .308 perfectly
The rifles are still fairly cheap as comparred to the German 98s and in abundance so you are not distroying some collectors piece.
 
i dont like sporterized stocks to be honest.. part of the reason im so attracted to military surplus is because of the beauty those military style stocks add.. the full length stocks with an upper forearm are gorgeous..

and to respond to willy, i have plenty of experience, however that experience is shifting towards military surplus bolt actions of which i just have this mosin nagant that i dont like very much

im really learning towards the K98K restoration project beginning with a barreled action, or one with a really bad stock to it, if not that id probably go with the czech mauser

did some searching online.. apparently i could get a complete 98k barreled action fairly cheap.. including a decent 8mm barrel with the bolt assembly, sights, and magazine.. would be the perfect place for building a restored K98K (new stock, new springs, new finish) without sacrificing value

another question i have.. i was thinking about what was said earlier, about the K-31 licking inside the barrel, and then i started thinking.. the AR15 locks inside the barrel as well, and to make custom barrels easy to make and interchange, an extension is used which includes the lugs and chamber of the barrel, and that a normal threaded contoured blank is attached to.. does anyone make any such extension for the K-31, or would it be possible to have one fabricated for easier, cheaper barrel changes in the future, and if so would there be any major loss of accuracy?
 
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Jason,
Two sources for actions

Samco global currently has the Spanish 1916 Mauser in .308 NATO--not .308 Winchester (converted from 7mm by the Spaniards after they joined NATO as practice rifles for the CETME). Whole rifles less than $200. They might also have a few actions to purchase even less than that.

A few places have a Chilean Mauser converted to .308.

Last but not least, Century International (you will have to find a local dealer) has some bolt action rifles listed in fair/poor condition such as the VZ24 in 7mm, an Israeli 7.62 NATO converted k98 Mauser, etc. Need to look in the odds and ends and also the one of a kind sections of their website.

Sarco also has bolt action receivers from time to time.

Last, but not least, gunbroker and auctionarms frequently have bubba'd rifles and also actions and barrels for sale often at dirt cheap prices.

I have a weak spot for buying bubba'd rifles and actions and restoring them to military condition so I spend a lot of time at these websites. Believe me, it is getting to be an expensive hobby--but I get to shoot mine with no guilt about ruining a piece of history.
 
so boom boom, when you restore them to military condition, do you make your own stocks for them?.. wondering if i should go with a one-piece walnut like early 98ks, or more likely try to replicate the WWII laminate (im really set on trying to find a WWII era 98k to restore to K98K configuration) which would most likely mean making a laminate blank

anyone know where accurate patterns can be found for carving new stocks?.. something cut out with the bandsaw before using rasps and planes to get the final shape?.. i might just get a really beat up stock and use it to pull the dimensions from
 
^^

Why don't you just buy a stock? Places like Sarco have barrels of them....

I still don't see any point to what you propose. If you want a Kar-98, buy one...



Willie

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Never mind the doubters... :rolleyes: That said, Sarco and Numrich have stocks for like 30$ --but they'll look like hell

Jason41987, the K31 doesn't actually lock into the barrel (like the AR15 barrel extension), though I'm certain the Swiss wish they'd thought of that since it'd have been even harder to machine :D. The K31 is unlike most barrel/receiver constructions in that the back side of the bolt (side which resists pressure when firing) is milled into the receiver, while the front side of the bolt (which pushes back as the bolt is turned for primary extraction) is milled into the barrel tang. I suppose this was billed as a way to make both operations simpler, but in practice you now have two parts that can't be made without sophisticated tooling instead of one. Most bolt actions have both the front and back bearing faces of the bolt contained inside the receiver bridge, or the handle is used as the extraction lug by dragging on in inclined ramp on the receiver body.

The "rebarreling" job developed for the K31, if you really want to call it that ;), is to chop it to a couple inches long, bore it out and thread it, and screw in the new barrel :barf:. It works, and gets a new barrel onto a worn out action, but it's about as bubba as bubba gets, aesthetically. It really isn't worth it unless that particular K31 has a hold on you (i.e. you've trained with it as a competitive shooter for decades and you're too old to learn another before you die :D). And besides, there's no way in hell you can improve upon the perfection that is the K31 (maybe a better buttpad and more visible sights/optics, but that's pretty much it)

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Takedown Steyr M95 with double set triggers :cool:

By contrast, the Steyr M95 is a much better candidate for a straight-pull rebarrel. They're cheap, much simpler, sturdier when it comes to the bolt/carrier interface (the K31 has one lug in a cam slot, the Steyr has two), have a bigger design envelope for new cartridges (K31 can't fit 30-06, the M95 can fit 8mm Mauser), and best of all...the barrel is connected just like a Mauser. Turn a blank, turn a tang/shoulder, thread it (12tpi, IIRC), relieve breechface for the extractor and bolt-face rim, and then figure out how to get the mag to work.

Getting the magazine to work is the toughest part with the most unknowns, and holds true for any rechambering project that isn't very similar to the original. The Steyr can be readily converted to 7.62x54 and 30-40 with no other changes to the feeding setup (Mannlicher clips), but any other round will require work. My rechambering project (back burnered until I finish making the reamer) is converting a Steyr into 50 Alaskan. Instead of fighting with the clips, I intend to carve out the entire magwell and go with a box mag of some sort, fed by K31 style clips which are the bestest ever made! I'll also make a new stock from several planks laminated over an internal steel reinforcing "skeleton" to take the much stronger recoil of the Alaskan.

Before choosing any action or cartridge pairing, be sure to do a bolt thrust calculation (which is not comparing peak pressures* or recoil); if the new round is more powerful than the old and conversions are not time-tested by others, be vewwy vewwy careful proceeding further. If the new round is the same or less than the old (like 50AK vs 8mm Steyr), you got nothin' to worry about :).

TCB

*In the unique-ish case of the Steyr, I would not go above the original peak pressures of the original proven cartridges (8mm Steyr being the hottest of them) for the reason that a pierced primer becomes more likely. Since nothing but firing-pin spring pressure keeps the bolt turned against the sleeve into the locking lugs, pressure from a pierced primer may push the bolt sleeve backward as it flows down the firing pin channel. This will unlock the pressurized breech. These old guns weren't designed with much "gas handling" features like modern designs, and won't handle a kaboom as well. That said, a Bing search for "Steyr M95 Kaboom" yields no results, so..."fly Quantas--never crashed" :D
 
well, the reason i like the steyr is the aesthetics of the short 20 inch military carbines and the en bloc clips, i dont have too much knowledge on them and now that i think about the age of that rifle.. i wonder is the 8mm mauser it fires the same one the WWII K98K fires?.. im aware there were a few different variants of the cartridge, some of them a lot lower pressure than the WWII 8mm mauser round.. so pressure does come into question, not to mention just how old most them are

that said.. i like something hard hitting, something that can deliver a heck of a punch.. something capable of the level of power youre not likely to find in a modern military rifle.. granted the garand, K43, and SVT40s delivered more of a punch than any assault rifle produced later.. anyway, that said, for something i plan to shoot frequently for the next 20-40 years i dont think having something where chamber pressures would ever be a concern would be the best choice, especially on something so old

i really want to like that swiss k31 to fill the role, i REALLY am liking its stripper clip design.. im neutral on the straight pull design because it doesnt really seem to be faster than a typical bolt action since most bolt handles are grabbed on their way up from the trigger, theres really no extra motion saved in the straight pulls.. and for quick follow-up shots im unaware of anything faster than an enfield that isnt a semi automatic..

so im thinking solely about that clip design on the K31.. is it enough to overcome the thought that if i shoot out a barrel the asbolute pain in the rear its going to be to replace it. i dont know, the swiss were able to make those barrels in the first place.. how much of a nighmare was it for them to get them headspaced, machined, and put together... i wonder if a shot out K31 barrel could be removed, bored out, and sleeve/lined as oppose to making a completely new barrel blank, and what kind of accuracy loss there would be over a new barrel?
 
Ishapore Enfield. Problem solved. Classic milsurp chambered in .308.

Or of you prefer a .30-06, Springfield 1903.

As mentioned, the barrel swap is the easy part. Making sure the bolt face matches the casing and the magazine feeds properly are the biggest obstacles facing a caliber conversion.

Its easier, and cheaper, the just go buy a new rifle in the chambering you want. I looked into.converting my Arisaka to a more common caliber, and quickly discovered I could buy a new Savage for less.
 
im still thinking rebuilding a K98K will be my best bet.. i love german WWII weaponry, the K98K was the backbone of it, 8mm cartridge i can get for about the same as 30-06 when reloading but has more of an impact which i like, and there are TONS of aftermarket for it, finding new replacement parts down the road will always be easy, ill never NOT be able to find a new barrel, new trigger parts, new bolt components, springs, firing pins, etc.. itll probably be the best choice for something long lasting
 
If it were me, and I really wanted to Bubba... I'd look at using Carcano and Arisaka actions. Both are cheap, THOUSANDS of previously Bubbad rifles are available CHEAP, both are as strong as the proverbial brick house, and neither is particularly desirable once previously Bubbad. Drill and tap away...

I agree. In particular, the Arisaka Type 99 is easily converted to .30-06 with a little bit of machining to the chamber. I have one someone did this to but is otherwise stock. Ideally you need to load with .311 bullets (readily available!) but it does function with off the shelf .30-06. Plenty of Arisakas out there in various states of Bubba'dness to choose from.

But I agree that this discussion is mostly gun fantasy. You'd be far better off sticking with something as issued or snagging one of many new production bolt guns that are fantastic.
 
^^ All true.



"8mm cartridge i can get for about the same as 30-06 when reloading but has more of an impact which i like"

You really don't know anything about rifles, do you? No offense, but... :eek:


Willie

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Barnbwt:
THANK you for adding all the detail on the K31 re barrel issue; I didn't really want to add a whole lot of bulk to this fantasy thread by going into the grisly details. The gunsmith who has been doing the re barrels seems to be mostly into target guns, so pretty wasn't a big issue. Regarding the M95 Steyr and it's issues, thanks again for bringing up the unintended "auto-ejection" potential of the design. I often thought the problems with the M1910 Ross may have stemmed from the same pierced-primer phenomenon, rather than the usually quoted flipped-bolt mis assembly. Anyway, one of the strengths of the original Schmidt-Rubin design, extending all the way to the K31, is getting the rotating surface for the locking sleeve uncoupled from the gas path in the event of a case failure. You may lose the receiver ring, but you aren't going to get a facefull of bolt.

About the M95 potential for conversion, I have a bit of personal insight. I had an M95M in 8x57 back in the day, and two factors affect going for a conversion to .308 Winchester. The bolt head on the converted rifles was new, with an appropriate recess for the rimless case head. There was some discussion whether the metallurgy was better than the bolts for the original 8x52R round, certainly these bolts were made a lot later than most of the original rifles. The tricky part was the extractor, which as you know is a bit delicate, to be generous. The new conversion extractor had a longer hook to grab the smaller case rim, and is beveled suggesting the ability to drop a round in the chamber and close the bolt on it. As I found out the hard way, this only works a few times before the very thin section bridging the bolt lug cracks, and you are sans extraction. While a kindly gunsmith welded and retempered the part, it still remained fragile and irreplaceable, since there were no spares for this version of the rifle even fifty years ago.

The second factor is the conversion of the magazine for the 8x57 round. What they did was to make a sheet steel clip with appropriate dimensions for the rimless round, and permanently fix it on the magazine box. Clip slots were machined into the back of the ejection opening so the standard Mauser strippers could be used. It worked, but it's another factor that would have to be dealt with if the OP were to try converting a M95 in the original caliber. Unless your uncle is a skilled and generous gunsmith, the conversion would end up costing you more than a premium modern gun, maybe putting you close to a Blaser.

Anyway, best of luck in your conversion to .450 Alaskan, this seems a much more reasonable route to go and should end up with a very handy and quick rifle for dealing with critters that are trying to have you for lunch.

Jason:
The K31 is way faster in cycling than any turnbolt action, even the fabled Lee-Enfield. The trick is practice that makes it instinctive to seize the bolt handle and slam it back and forth, while lifting your face out of the way of the bolt. The same skill of hundreds of repetitions that made the British Tommy so quick with his SMLE. Good luck with whatever rifle you end up with, seriously consider attaining the same level of skill by the same route: Practice, practice, practice.
 
Jason,
Sorry about the delay but shopping for my next project today which is a 1903a3 restoration. As far as stocks, there are a few stockmakers who can duplicate virtually any stock, including military. You can generally find these in the back of gunmags such as Guns, the American Riflemen, Shotgun News, Gun Digest, etc. They will also have rough blanks that would make your stockmaking a bit easier (also wood may be kiln dried, good quality, etc. for a more stable (moisturewise) stock blank). You might also find these at an old timey gunsmith (one who has been in business for a long time). THe longer the wood has been resting in a controlled environment, the more stable the wood.

A second source comes from surplus stocks, a few popular milsurps such as the Lee Enfield did have a huge number of stocks virtually unused (but with a few storage marks) or the M-1 Garrand and M-14. Check Sarco and Numrich (gunpartscorp) for those. Depending on your woodworking skills, you can also repair existing stocks with pieces from another beaten up old stock if you are very careful. You can also purchase stocks via auction at gunbroker and ebay.

Last, but not least, Boyds makes a lot of new semi-inletted stocks for military rifles--some duplicate existing military stocks, others for sporter versions. They do make a K98 Mauser semi-inletted stock and the handguard for it.

I generally have used the last two sources as I don't have the time nor the patience to carve that much wood from a stock blank. However, Reid Coffeld column in the Shotgun News often has him making stocks, repairing stocks, building new calibers for existing rifles, etc. You can get a compilation of such columns in Shotgun News Gunsmithing Projects which I bought from Amazon for less than $15. Roy Dunlap's Gunsmithing Book has its good points about milsurps as well.

One thing, if you buy from auction sites, wait until you find the going rate. Some people bid stuff up far more than it is worth. I generally take the damaged stocks/handguards and repair them or strip the rather horrid refinishing jobs that Bubba chose to express his artistic talents. Collectors want cartouches and original unsanded condition and so those stocks go at a premium. Both have worked out well for me but I have also bought nearly new replacement Milsurps stocks from Numrich and Sarco.

Real difficulty is not acquiring the stocks but instead the various screws, swivels, spacers, bushings, buttplates, etc. As I choose to put originals (with the exception of actions screws--I keep the original screws and use the repros as I occasionally thoroughly clean the rifles). However, if you get the rusty screws, the buggered screw heads, etc. you can get by on the cheap and restore them.
 
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