jrhines
Member
What is the group experience with MIM parts? Accolades? Horror stories? NIMG (Not In My Gun)? Technical citations welcome! Emotion elicited responses tolerated!
MIM Parts, Good?, Bad?, Ugly???
- Thread starter jrhines
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In my admittedly limited experience, MIM parts are best where there is no excessive strain placed on them. They seem to work OK for such parts as safety catches, triggers and even hammers. But where there is a strain, as on the bottom part of the barrel bushing, MIM parts have failed.
It also seems that there is a variation in quality in MIM parts production. This is not surprising, as it is true of most materials. Even forged steel parts can be badly made, as witness the early 1903 Springfield rifles. A gun designer uses (or should use) material appropriate to the job, not just the cheapest available. S&W now uses MIM for the hammers and triggers of their revolvers and I have not seen or heard of any problems. (Except from one S&W hater, whose rants seem to be the product of politics, not knowledge or experience.)
Jim
It also seems that there is a variation in quality in MIM parts production. This is not surprising, as it is true of most materials. Even forged steel parts can be badly made, as witness the early 1903 Springfield rifles. A gun designer uses (or should use) material appropriate to the job, not just the cheapest available. S&W now uses MIM for the hammers and triggers of their revolvers and I have not seen or heard of any problems. (Except from one S&W hater, whose rants seem to be the product of politics, not knowledge or experience.)
Jim
jrhines
Member
Jim & Mete - Thanks for the come back. Could we get a little more specific? Hammers are OK? What about sears & disconnectors (all 1911, BUL parts from Brownell's)? What about impact resistance? Seems if the hammer can take a not-so-subtle recock via the slide and deliver the same to the firing pin, MIMS fills the bill. Is the sear under more stress (strain) when the gun is cocked? When the trigger is being pulled? What I'm trying to evaluate is the purist that thinks if it wasn't hand milled and fitted from barstock by a white-haired old man in a green eye-shade, it shan't be used in his gun! I think that technology moves forward, not only to produce cheaper methods and products, but in some rare cases, better ones.
Would you use these parts in a carry gun? If not, why? Remember that I said emotion would be tolerated (" 'cause I don't trust 'em!"), tech stuff is better ("MIMS is typically X psi, 4010 is Y psi...")!
Would you use these parts in a carry gun? If not, why? Remember that I said emotion would be tolerated (" 'cause I don't trust 'em!"), tech stuff is better ("MIMS is typically X psi, 4010 is Y psi...")!
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Just...
For what it's worth...I've never seen a Colt MIM sear fail. Having said that,
all the MIM sears that came in my Colts now reside in the spare/junk
parts department. Likewise for the extractors.
Range queen? Fine. Carry gun that might be the only thing between me
and the highway of no return? Nup...
Tuner<-------donning fire-retardant suit.
For what it's worth...I've never seen a Colt MIM sear fail. Having said that,
all the MIM sears that came in my Colts now reside in the spare/junk
parts department. Likewise for the extractors.
Range queen? Fine. Carry gun that might be the only thing between me
and the highway of no return? Nup...
Tuner<-------donning fire-retardant suit.
Black Snowman
Member
A trip down memory lane to where I asked an even simpler question and got a whole lot of answers http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50301
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50301jrhines
Member
1911 Tuner - What MIMs parts have you seen fail (as noted in your 17 Nov post sited by B.Snowman)? Any analysis as to why they failed? Any guesses (shrewed or off the wall)? As far as I can see from reviewing the sited posts, there are a cadre of folks that simply don't "trust" MIMs parts, not for any hard fact reason, but just because... Like some folks talking about trigger pull quality and how "it's a known fact" that such and such a gun has/had a better trigger than some other. Give me numbers, all else is just opinion...not that opinion dosn't count, but for me, numbers win the day! (Of course it's nice if the numbers are milled out of barstock.)
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
jrhines asked:
1911 Tuner - What MIMs parts have you seen fail ?
A half dozen extractors...One chipped sear (Kimber) that didn't malfunction.
Two slidestops (One broken lug, common...One broken pin, uncommon)
One grip safety (Kimber) Broke in two. Wasn't on the scene for the GS.
Saw it after the fact. One thumb safety (lug) One mag catch.
Not definitive, but enough to make me believe that minor flaws occur, and
cause sudden failure of the part.
Cheers!
Tuner
1911 Tuner - What MIMs parts have you seen fail ?
A half dozen extractors...One chipped sear (Kimber) that didn't malfunction.
Two slidestops (One broken lug, common...One broken pin, uncommon)
One grip safety (Kimber) Broke in two. Wasn't on the scene for the GS.
Saw it after the fact. One thumb safety (lug) One mag catch.
Not definitive, but enough to make me believe that minor flaws occur, and
cause sudden failure of the part.
Cheers!
Tuner
There was a real nice thread where a guy (mebbe from S&W??) explained the whole technical skinny on MIM. What my fading memory recalls is it can be OK, but the company has to have strict quality control and use top grade materials to begin with. The powder they use to fuse into a solid part comes in various grades and some less than scrupulous low bid mfrs could use a substandard powder if they thought they could get away with it. Also, the process of manufacturing the part itself has to be closely watched so the part doesn't have internal voids, etc. Not quite as simple as baking cookies, I gathered.
EDIT: JR, check out VictorLouis' response on the attached thread. There are TWO citations; one from Flomatech and one from a rep from S&W. This is what I was trying to recall above. HTH
MIM Thread
EDIT: JR, check out VictorLouis' response on the attached thread. There are TWO citations; one from Flomatech and one from a rep from S&W. This is what I was trying to recall above. HTH
MIM Thread
stans
Member
MIM and casting have a lot in common. Both are fine for some parts as long as the proper alloy and heat treatments are used. I really would not want a cast or MIM internal extractor, this is a job for spring steel, but they may work ok for an external extractor. MIM and casting are here to stay because it is cheaper than milling from bar stock or forging.
Again, my experience is limited, but it seems to me that where there is little strain, well made MIM parts are OK, or at least reasonably good. Parts that take a pounding (hammers) seem OK as do parts subject only to finger pressure (triggers, safeties). but where the part is thin and subject to a breaking stress (barrel bushing skirt), the MIM part, like a cast part, is more likely to fail than a forged part or one machined from stock.
Also, MIM parts don't seem to have much "spring" (again like cast parts) and are inappropriate for extractors. Solid parts that are under little strain, such as mainspring housings, can be made by MIM, casting, or even of plastic with few or no problems.
Jim
Also, MIM parts don't seem to have much "spring" (again like cast parts) and are inappropriate for extractors. Solid parts that are under little strain, such as mainspring housings, can be made by MIM, casting, or even of plastic with few or no problems.
Jim
MoNsTeR
Member
I've had an MIM hammer fail (came in a Dan Wesson). I've also seen a number of MIM parts -- a disconnector, thumb safety, and slide stop off the top of my head -- with significant visible imperfections in terms of pits and seams.
I have my doubts as to the "different qualities of MIM" hypothesis. If you look at the MIM hammers and sears that different parts companies offer, it's quite clear they're all made by the same manufacturer (or at least from identical molds).
Personally I don't object too dogmatically to MIM parts in my own guns, except for the lockwork where I simply won't tolerate them.
I have my doubts as to the "different qualities of MIM" hypothesis. If you look at the MIM hammers and sears that different parts companies offer, it's quite clear they're all made by the same manufacturer (or at least from identical molds).
Personally I don't object too dogmatically to MIM parts in my own guns, except for the lockwork where I simply won't tolerate them.
I have no problem with MIM in some parts and don't agree with those who state that any MIM part is junk. IMO, MIM is a better solution than cast/forged for some applications, but as Jim and 1911Tuner wrote (Tuner, to heck with the back cover picture, you gotta write a book. ).
Only MIM part I've seen break was the firing pin in a friend's SW 610. Twice. What's interesting is both times it broke firing 40SW ammo, but was fine firing 10MM.
).Only MIM part I've seen break was the firing pin in a friend's SW 610. Twice. What's interesting is both times it broke firing 40SW ammo, but was fine firing 10MM.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Write a Book?
Cool! Think I might make the cover of the Rollin' Stone?
Cool! Think I might make the cover of the Rollin' Stone?
I don't see it discussed much, but from my own observations most of the internals in recent S&W revolvers are MIM, some Glock parts are MIM and some Sig parts are MIM. The process is not intrinsically flawed, but like everything else done by humans it can be corrupted by bad QC or greed.
Jammer Six
member
So...
You're saying that you've never seen any of your Colt MIM sears fail because you keep them in a drawer?
Jeez, Tuner, next time you want to write something obvious, can I do it for you?
Lycoming aircraft engines had a recall on their oil pumps, because they decided to save a few cents and make their oil pump gears out of the stuff. Never had a problem with their old machined gears... But, when airplanes started falling out the sky with seized engines, and the FAA saw that the oil pump gears failed, Lycoming started a recall, but if it wasn't under warranty, the airplane owner had to pay to replace the part, and to replace it they had to tear the engine down to get to it. All for a few cents.
My last employer, Bosch, had a spacer made out of MIM, in a diesel fuel pump, to save a few cents. I warned them about them, but noooooo, they developed cracks, and leaks, no problem with the old milled part. They changed back to to the old part, after a few engine fires...MMM, those Nazi's said that is why they moved my job to Brazil, because of quality issues, I wonder????
I would not trust any MIM parts in my gun, a high pressure machine.
A former CNC Machinist
My last employer, Bosch, had a spacer made out of MIM, in a diesel fuel pump, to save a few cents. I warned them about them, but noooooo, they developed cracks, and leaks, no problem with the old milled part. They changed back to to the old part, after a few engine fires...MMM, those Nazi's said that is why they moved my job to Brazil, because of quality issues, I wonder????
I would not trust any MIM parts in my gun, a high pressure machine.
A former CNC Machinist
Walt Sherrill
Member
You missed an important point...
1911Tuner also works on other people's guns.
He sees a lot of MIM sears.
He hasn't seen any MIM sear failures.
When he tunes a new gun of his own, he removes the MIM sears.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Jammer...
He said:
So...
You're saying that you've never seen any of your Colt MIM sears fail because you keep them in a drawer?
Jeez, Tuner, next time you want to write something obvious, can I do it for you?
LMAO...He's just raggin' at me a little, Walt.
Truth is, that I don't work on many pistols for other folks these days, but I
shoot with a lot of'em that have newer, MIM sear-ed Colts. The ones that
I have that had MIM sears got thoroughly wrung out prior to the swap.
No failures on the sears to report. I just want steel sears in my carry guns. It's cheaper than takin' the stock sears to have'em magnafluxed to check for voids. Call me superstitious.
So...I don't know if Colt has stricter QC standards on theirs, or if their vendor just has a solid handle on the process. Maybe Colt magnafluxes
and rejects any suspect parts. I have also never attempted any trigger
tuning on any MIM sears and related parts, since I don't know if the
stee... er...the material is soft under the skin or not. It may be rumor, but I hear that some are. Maybe somebody who knows more about the stuff
can shed some light.
I'm comin' down to Grandview to check ya'll out soon, Walt. Ray still
talkin' about sellin' out?
He said:
So...
You're saying that you've never seen any of your Colt MIM sears fail because you keep them in a drawer?
Jeez, Tuner, next time you want to write something obvious, can I do it for you?
LMAO...He's just raggin' at me a little, Walt.
Truth is, that I don't work on many pistols for other folks these days, but I
shoot with a lot of'em that have newer, MIM sear-ed Colts. The ones that
I have that had MIM sears got thoroughly wrung out prior to the swap.
No failures on the sears to report. I just want steel sears in my carry guns. It's cheaper than takin' the stock sears to have'em magnafluxed to check for voids. Call me superstitious.
So...I don't know if Colt has stricter QC standards on theirs, or if their vendor just has a solid handle on the process. Maybe Colt magnafluxes
and rejects any suspect parts. I have also never attempted any trigger
tuning on any MIM sears and related parts, since I don't know if the
stee... er...the material is soft under the skin or not. It may be rumor, but I hear that some are. Maybe somebody who knows more about the stuff
can shed some light.
I'm comin' down to Grandview to check ya'll out soon, Walt. Ray still
talkin' about sellin' out?
Jammer Six
member
Yup.
'Tuner's been more help to me in the last couple weeks than I ever could have asked.
He's talked me through fixing a hammer following problem on my milspec, replacing springs and petting the sear and hammer until it started acting right, and yesterday he gave up a big part of his Sunday to look at pictures I sent him of me working on a safety installation on my Springfield Loaded model.
In another thread, a guy was asking what he needed in his basic kit to start 'smithing, and someone suggested the phone number of a smith.
I would add a digital camera, a fast internet connection, and 'Tuner's email address.
In my trade, (I'm a carpenter by trade and a general contractor by profession) I beat, abuse and yell "boo!" at apprentices, and then send them for coffee until they either quit or start walking, acting and talking like carpenters.
Then I glare at them, raise their pay, and start expecting even more out of them. The only down side for me is that at that point, I can't afford to have them screwing around with the coffee pot any more, so I have to hire yet another brand new apprentice, and start all over again. After all, we have to have fresh coffee.
When I help someone become a carpenter, the results are obvious, and it's easy to see.
So I figured that 'Tuner knows how much he helps people, but Walt's message reminded me that this is the net, and he might not see the results, and someone who isn't on the CC list for all the emails we exchange can't see them, either.
So here it is. This is, to quote Chief Dan George, The Way Things Are.
Thank you, 'Tuner, for all the help you've given me. I was at my wit's end until you took an interest, and now my milspec runs, and I'm closing in on a solution for the thumb safety on my Loaded model.
In spite of your advanced age, I read every word you write, and hereby Name You "Ancient And Venerable Tuner Of 1911's".
I'll just call you "'Tuner" for short.
Walt Sherrill
Member
Rumors abound, and the range/shop has a new manager, who has expressed interest, but nothing expected in the immediate future.
A group of us talked with Ray about buying him out a while back, but we couldn't come to terms.
We have a "local" (read "distinctly amateur") IDPA match scheduled at GFTC this coming Friday evening (01/09/04, starts at 6:30). We expect a light turnout -- no more than 10 or 12 shooters. That'd be a good time to visit. Bring your gun.
(Running an IDPA match, indoors, in one large bay, in a relatively confined area, is a challenge.)
---
I've also gotten the impression, perhaps wrong, that Ruger does a significant portion of all MIM work for US gun companies. (They seem to do a lot of non-firearms MIM work, too.)
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Many Thanks
Thanks for the kudos Jammer! It means a lot. And I'll answer to Tuner,
Tooner...Toon...and have been called many things that can't be repeated in
gentle company.
Walt, I'm gonna try to get down there Friday to check out the goin's on.
I ain't bringin' a shooter though...Ray might be there, and it'd just be
too temptin'.
Thanks for the kudos Jammer! It means a lot. And I'll answer to Tuner,
Tooner...Toon...and have been called many things that can't be repeated in
gentle company.
Walt, I'm gonna try to get down there Friday to check out the goin's on.
I ain't bringin' a shooter though...Ray might be there, and it'd just be
too temptin'.
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