Bad Rugers with MIM parts?

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Old fuff you make good points but you are referring to improperly made MIM parts which can be true of all things made of anything.
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True. That's because the chance of getting inferior parts goes up when cost reduction is the primary goal, and the ultimate gun manufacturer buys them from an outside vendor where (probably) the lowest bidder will be the winner.

In and of itself I am not opposed to MIM technology. My greater worry is that to reduce costs it may be used in applications where it shouldn't be. I know of a number of instances in firearms components where this has actually happened. I want my personal handguns - especially those that I depend on to protect myself - to be made with unquestionably proven methods and materials not rooted in saving production or labor costs. That, and in many cases I can buy what I want for less money then a potentially inferior new one costs.
 
Fluff is absolutely right about most of this sort of production being outsourced to a job shop.....Not sure in all cases that necessarily translates into poor quality though. The cost savings is typically in the non unionized labor working in the job shop and their ability to specialize and produce in quantity for several MFG's.

Even job shops want to keep their customers happy and typically those outsourced parts are engineered and spec'd in house before contracting the supply. I wish I knew more about the properties of these different processes, but alas I have to many other things floating around in my small brain.
 
MIM parts can be hardened and annealed so if gun manufacturers decide not to its not the fault of the MIM
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"Can" is different than the reality of what Ruger and Smith and Taurus do.

They make ultra hard brittle parts.

They COULD create a part from MIM that is the equal of forged. But they don't. To save money at the price of the quality of their product.

That is a simple fact that is undeniable.

Said again the way gun companies actually produce mim parts (not how they COULD be made) is a cost-cutting method that compromises quality so as to lower costs.

Ruger does it to stay a value oriented gun
Taurus does it to make cheap guns
Smith does it to pad the bottom line

Dan Wesson does not do it. Because they are trying to make a premium product.

Even S&W does not do it in their best guns. That tells it all
 
I'm no expert in MIM and probably never will be, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn.:D

Even if MIM is "weaker" it would fair better on a Ruger due to their "oversized" parts. A smaller/fragile part replaced by MIM is what would give me pause, not so easy to find on a Ruger. The advantage for the use of MIM surely has to go to Ruger. I honestly believe a Ruger loaded with MIM would still be stronger than a Smith and Taurus without.

A little brand loyalty there skidder? You bet your heineken and for good reason. I've never had to replace any parts on my Rugers, but not so with my Smiths and Tauri revolvers.

I'm not saying I'm gonna run out and look for a Ruger with MIM (not necessary with all the used ones on the market), but I would feel more comfortable having a Ruger with MIM than the others.
 
Skidder

I agree that MIM in a Ruger is more trustworthy than most.

Ruger was created on making good products while embracing cost-cutting measures.

That is not a claim that other companies can make.


But no honest person can say that MIM gun parts are not embraced for any other reason than to save money.
 
But no honest person can say that MIM gun parts are not embraced for any other reason than to save money.
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I agree.

I just wish the prices would reflect their "cost cutting". Sticks in my craw that we keep paying more for cheaper made revolvers.
 
Ruger was created on making good products while embracing cost-cutting measures.
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Less expensive doesn't equal less good than Dan Wesson, which is what your implying. Better is subjective.

I will hold that some MIM parts are just as good as their counterparts. If they weren't our new guns would be falling apart. so unless we have evidence they don't hold up as well, and or work as well, thats my opinion. And if in certain applications they work as well, hold up as well and fail at a similar rate as traditional parts I cant see one is better at being a part than another. The difference would be cost alone.

Time will tell unfortunately or fortunately depending on how you view things I believe we will see MIM get better and better and similar technology will become more widely used in all aspects of production of more than just guns. Its used to success in many fields and I don't see it slowing down in the gun world either. so..... time to go to work its friday though lol have good day guys
 
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skidder said:
I agree.

I just wish the prices would reflect their "cost cutting". Sticks in my craw that we keep paying more for cheaper made revolvers.
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It's not so much that there's savings to pass on the gun companies need to do changes to keep their prices from getting out of the target range.
 
I will hold that some MIM parts are just as good as their counterparts.
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You will be the only person that believes so if the question is quality.

(they are better with regards to price)

In addition, they are difficult or impossible to polish, do not interact with other metals well and do not take plating well.

But I am quite sure that none of those facts matter to you.
 
Sticks in my craw that we keep paying more for cheaper made revolvers.
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But now you know why.
There are people that belly up to the bar and order Usher's Green Label and loudly proclaim that it is a better product than Glenmorangie.

Until this thread, I just thought it was fiscal considerations and/or ignorance.
 
Sticks in my craw that we keep paying more for cheaper made revolvers.
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But now you know why.
There are people that belly up to the bar and order Usher's Green Label and loudly proclaim that it is a better product than Glenmorangie.

Until this thread, I just thought it was fiscal considerations and/or ignorance.
 
I will hold that some MIM parts are just as good as their counterparts.
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I would agree with that, as it depends on the application. The problem has been (and sometimes still is) that in they're quest to lower costs manufacturers sometimes use MIM parts (such as hammers and triggers) where the older parts while more expensive were better. If nothing else the MIM parts are cosmetically unattractive. This is a minor point, but as the Old Fuff has pointed out, those who do care can have their cake and eat it - and sometimes for less money.
 
Old Fuff

As it applies to revolvers...what MIM parts (as they are constructed...not how they COULD be constructed) are as good as forged?
 
On parts like the cylinder release, it doesn't really matter. Not necessarily "better" but plenty good enough. Which I think is what was intended. However, on parts like hammers and triggers, nobody with half a lick of sense could ever possibly believe that a cast/sintered/MIM part could EVER be better than forged. Unless they just have a passel of new S&W's and refuse to believe they are inferior to older guns. ;)
 
Actually, it's probably more like one or two. IMHO, the more guns you own, the greater your perspective and the more realistic your perception. I have a bunch of Bangor-Punta era S&W's. I have no problem accepting the fact that S&W's from the Triple-Lock up through the 1950 are better made guns. Which is fine, because I never expected Registered Magnum quality out of a $400 sixgun. I have no problem accepting the fact that my four USFA's are much better made guns than the two dozen or so Ruger revolvers or half dozen Uberti's that have passed through my hands. Not a big deal and it doesn't prevent me from enjoying any of them.

I sincerely wish it weren't so because there's been several guns in S&W's "Classic" series that I would've loved to have. I just can't pay the high tariff for a sixgun of lesser quality than a real classic.
 
Maybe some folks don't even understand the difference???
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True

I have some of the finest revolvers ever made...but I also have a couple of polymer autos.

The Kahr PM9 is an excellent little piece for deep concealment. It fits in a boot, is accurate and is easy to shoot.

I have a Rock River AR, the cast receiver is filled with MIM parts.

These guns fill a purpose and I enjoy them. But in no way are they as finely crafted as many of my other guns, even the Model 15 from 1985 (1985 represents one of the newest revolvers I own). And I CERTAINLY don't argue that their internal parts are better than forged.

Let me say again.

Ruger makes revolvers that are very good values. I trust that MIM makes sense for them and their mission.
 
Where are all the broken parts?

I bought a Kimber Stainless Gold Match in 1999 and have been following the MIM controversy ever since. From what I've read, very, very few parts break at all and those break early in the round count.

I'm still chuckling at the claim that companies start using MIM and still greedily raise the price of the gun. I'd bet the price increase would have more if they hadn't used MIM. (Iow, they need to raise the price of the gun by, say $50, (due to material costs, increased labor costs, insurance, utilities) so they introduce a half a dozen small MIM parts and save $5 or $10 or so overall. The price increase is now $40.)


"Forged parts are 100% the strength of forged parts "

Are we talking about the strength of good forged parts or cheap/shoddy forged parts? There is a difference. Surely you know that.


"In addition, they are difficult or impossible to polish"

Yeah, they should make the parts out of relatively soft metal like the pre-war S&Ws. Man, they could polish those guns to a perfect finish. :)

John
 
Yeah, they should make the parts out of relatively soft metal like the pre-war S&Ws. Man, they could polish those guns to a perfect finish.
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you know, there is a third alternative

it is the one that all premium gun gun manufacturers prefer when they are not cutting corners
 
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