Bad Rugers with MIM parts?

[lobo9er]

the fact remains that forged parts will always be stronger than MIM parts.

because you say so? where have you gotten that information from? Metal injection molding is still in its youth. I believe the technology will only be getting better and better. "Always" is a long time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_injection_molding heres a link a wikipedia page you tell me whats false or untrue. Now guillermo is saying the MIM parts in guns have the potential to be as good if the manufacturers took extra steps in with the parts like annealing them so they wouldn't be so hard and "brittle". thats a better argument.

 

[CraigC]

I'm glad we now know what is debatable well to your point if the parts hold up as well and fail at similar rate as forged parts than I guess the debate is over because they do. so maybe when utilized correctly not only are they "good enough" they might be "as good."

Well, when MIM parts have been around for 100yrs, we might know.

where have you gotten that information from?

Common knowledge. Easy when the truth is more important than justifying your choices. If MIM parts were better, everybody would be using them for everything possible. They are not. They are strictly a cost-cutting measure. The best firearms in the world do not have MIM parts. The best firearms in the world are made with forged or parts cut from barstock.

...heres a link a wikipedia page you tell me whats false or untrue.

You need to get your education somewhere besides Wikipedia. You know, some of us were into this stuff long before Al Gore invented the internet.


Are you basing your whole argument on this vague statement from a Wikipedia article???
"MIM gained recognition throughout the 1990s as improvements to subsequent conditioning processes resulted in an end product that performs similar or better than those made through competing processes."

 

[JohnBT]

"the fact remains that forged parts"

Made in China forged parts? American? Whose forged parts? Good forged parts? Shoddy forged parts? What material was used? Who heat treated them? Was it done properly?

No doubt there's good MIM and bad MIM too, depending on the manufacturer.

 

[Old Fuff]

Regardless of how they were made, the quality of the materials and workmanship in Colt's, Smith & Wesson's and Ruger's weren't questioned in the past. Part of the reason was that the critical ones they were made "in house" and not by outside vendors. There is nothing wrong with outside sources - so long as a careful inspection system is in place, and unfortunately another factor in cost cutting was to reduce inspection procedures.

I don't get excited over the idea that current production revolvers from the big-four mainline companies are not up to snuff, but I'm a little unsecure when it comes to outside vendors and a driving motive is to lower costs. Were they still making parts from investment castings, machined bar stock or forgings I would still have some qualms.

Best quality and lowest cost seldom go together.

 

[Guillermo]

John

While they can make MIM where it is not brittle, (by using a two or three step process) they will not do so because of cost. But for conversation's sake...let's say that they did.

They would still not interact well with other metals, hold plating or polish.

Before you suggest that these are not good qualities to have, please note that some gunsmiths won't do action jobs because they customer is oft displeased with the lack of change.
The Jerry Miculek 625 has a chromed hammer (trying to improve the action) and a forged trigger. Trying to smooth up the misc amalgamation of parts they tried to flash chrome MIM. But many of these parts fail because the chrome flakes off.

All this is to say that yes, while gun makers won't do it due to expense, the very reason they went to MIM in the first place, they COULD make them very strong.

But they cannot make up for the other deficiencies of the material.

 

[lobo9er]

craig its actually just a starting point. It has factual information about the process. Another source I sited was from a company that makes MIM parts. Right I know it hasn't been around for 100 years, like I have said we will have to come back 10,20 etc years but there are many guns with MIM parts with high round counts, right? or is that wrong? if its right the "good enough" debate for me is concluded. And FYI if it wasn't for Al Gore we wouldn't be chatting like this anyhow.......

 

[lobo9er]

Common knowledge. Easy when the truth is more important than justifying your choices. If MIM parts were better, everybody would be using them for everything possible. They are not. They are strictly a cost-cutting measure. The best firearms in the world do not have MIM parts. The best firearms in the world are made with forged or parts cut from barstock.

No one said every part can or should be a MIM part.

 

[Guillermo]

lobo,

you ignore things, even in the quotes you post

Common knowledge. Easy when the truth is more important than justifying your choices. If MIM parts were better, everybody would be using them for everything possible. They are not. They are strictly a cost-cutting measure. The best firearms in the world do not have MIM parts. The best firearms in the world are made with forged or parts cut from barstock.

They are strictly a cost-cutting measure

this is an undeniable fact (with regards to gun companies)

The best firearms in the world do not have MIM parts.

this is an undeniable fact

 

[JohnBT]

"They would still not interact well with other metals, hold plating or polish.

Before you suggest that these are not good qualities to have"


They are not necessary qualities if all someone wants is a gun that works for 10 or 20 years or whatever. Most people aren't buying a project, they're buying a tool to use.

I bought a Stainless Gold Match Kimber in 1999 and haven't seen any evidence of the MIM parts not interacting well with other metals. Can you tell me when the MIM parts in my pistol start not interacting "well with other metals" as you put it? You know, nearly (all?) major firearms makers use MIM, where's the evidence?

John

 

[Jaymo]

BAD Ruger! NO MIM in the house!
Drop it! Drop that MIM! Don't make me get the rolled-up newspaper.
Good Ruger. Who's a good gun? Who's a good gun?
You are. Yes, you are.

 

[Guillermo]

John,

This is a good read. Grant Cunningham, while not an engineer, has a lot of practical experience with MIM gun parts.

While there are some rather dry articles written by the "pocket protector" crowd, a well respected gunsmith's experience should be well received.

http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/e8b998dd63b440b469dd8c5d4d262aed-150.html