"minute of bad guy myth"

[Steve Smith]

I'm currently reading "A Rifleman Went to War" by Herbert McBride. Good reading for sure. Herbert was primarily an MG gunner in WWI but was an accomplished rifleman before he deployed, and did some sniping on the side during the war. His comments are that while it is good that the snipers have very accurate guns, perhaps it is best if the regular troops have somewhat inacurate rifles so that they can get more "luck kills" as their actual abilities are pretty poor.

 

[c_yeager]

Personally I am tired of people who do all of their shooting off a bench in preparation for "TSHTF". Your rifle is only as accurate as you can put it on paper in your hands. 1/4MOA or 4MOA doesnt matter if you cant hold 10 inches at 100 yards. Honestly a "combat rifle" has no place being shot in any way outside of the "3 positions" (standing, kneeling/sitting, prone).

Of course I don't expect the army of zombies anytime soon so, i do all of my shooting for FUN. so there.

 

[DT Guy]

Some thoughts on the subject of 'how far you may have to shoot to defend yourself"

Can You Shoot Well Enough?


Larry

 

[Tomac]

Under combat stress the first thing to go out the door is fine motor control. Try running a 100yd sprint and *then* see what group size you get, regardless of position. My 5.45 AKs can hit the 300m gong all day, that's accurate enough for me. Further than that and I'll get my scoped NDM-86 Dragunov.
Tomac

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

If you are engaging multiple guys at 4-500 yds. in the open, what exactly are they going to be firing their supporting arms against? A circle 400m in diameter expanding outward?

The other day I was sitting in the middle of a 1,000yd. rifle range at Tac-Pro Shooting Center. It is a beautiful location with some mild hills that let you see a good distance over the mostly flat surroundings.

Even there, the only places I could see and shoot further than 300yds were downrange or uprange. Minor variations in terrain and mesquite thickets pretty much made all my other shots closer.

Despite all the wide open space, there would still be only one or two areas where someone could take a shot at me from further than 300yds.

 

[Joe Demko]

One of the things about this long-range badguy plinking is that it often comes up in the context of picking them off from inside your fortified house during the post-sky-is-falling festivities.
In that context, you better hope that said bad guys are completely untrained. A group that has very basic military skills isn't going to stand around looking baffled while you pick them off. As quickly as you fire your first shot, they will hit the dirt. Especially if you fire additional shots, it won't take them long to realize just where your fixed position is. At this point, what comes into play is how much they want to kill you. They might withdraw. On the other hand, they may instead open fire on you. If they have those basic skills, some of them will be firing at you while the others are moving up and/or attempting to flank you. Once they get close enough, if they are goblins, motivated by goblin spite (thanks John! ) they might elect just to burn the house down with you in it. They might withdraw and return after dark. The possibilities are just endless.
Where would they get this training? Lots of guys have been in the military. If it really is TEOTWAWKI, they might even be a rogue military unit.

Ye gods! This riot nerd stuff is a hoot! (Thanks again John!)

 

[Swamprabbit]

The whole "accuracy" argument, to me, falls into the same categories as all the "which is more reliable" arguments - just internet forum material. Sure, I have a couple of 1/4 MOA rifles which I enjoy shooting little tight groups at out to 1,100 yds (that is the maximum target at my range) but I have more fun, and kill more game, with rifles that shoot anywhere from 1-3 MOA. As long as my rifle has enough accuracy to place the bullet in the kill zone (ex. chest area of a deer) of my target at the rifle's practical distance limit, I'm satisfied.

 

[Ian]

Good article, Larry.

Some of the most enjoyable shooting I've done has been with friends setting up surprise courses of fire. Better still are surprise courses of fire using partly- to mostly-hidden targets.

Another thing I like to practice is shooting at moving targets. The ranges I shoot at during the summer have steep backstops, so I can bounce a pop can up the berm with a low shot, and then practice hitting it as it rolls back down. Sometimes they land in tall grass or behind brush, which lets me practice hitting concealed targets.

I don't care that my chances of actually "needing" these skills are next to nil, I just really enjoy developing them. That's all the justification I need.

 

[El Rojo]

Another consideration is, how do you even know these people are your enemies?

The blue helmets of course! I thought that was a given in any SHTF scenario. If not blue helmets then saggy pants. Yeah get ready for the gansta wars in the PRK. Duke of Lawnchair was right. Not only do you have to worry about people jumping into your truck as you do 85 down I-5, but you have to worry about gangsta's with the Homeboy Sight System on their Glock jumping into the back of your truck. Yeah, it is the latest threat to the Central Valley in the PRK. You thought random guys jumping into your truck were bad, these guys are deadly accurate with their Homeboy Sights. That is why I carry a 0 MOA (10 shots, one hole) .50 FUCA (not .50 BMG as it is going to get banned and I don't want to register it) AR-15 with 30 round magazines so I can shoot through 3 of the gangstas with one shot and kill all of them. I can hit targets standing at 800 yards all day long with it. I also bought a mag cinch system so I can have three of the 30 round .50 FUCA mags strapped together for ultra quick mag changes. Don't mess with Kern County!

 

[Duke of Lawnchair]

Don't mess with Kern County!

WERD!

WHICKAH WICKAH WHICK!

 

[Onmilo]

Minute of bad guy, minute of elk, minute of deer, minute of groundhog, etc. are not myths, they are general terms meaning the weapon used is capable
of shooting into the kill zone of the animate target under discussion at any reasonable range.
Where did this myth of "Loose shooting" get started?

 

[Grump]

I DISPRESPECTFULLY DISSENT!!!

My aimed shot at a 6-inch kill zone is off by two inches from dead-center at 100 yards. I'm human. I have a "wobble area.". Would I rather have a dead-nuts reliable AK that shoots 3 MOA, or a dead-nuts reliable AR/M14/XM8 or whatever that shoots close to 1 MOA.

Your "minute of bad guy" rifle can make me miss if the 3 MOA is AWAY from the target center.

Try that on size when you're talking about first-round hits. Sounds like some of us might be better served by a T/C Contender in a rifle caliber, with a decent scope.

 

[carebear]

Joe & Bartholomew,

You pick the right ridgeline on Camp Pendleton or out at the Stumps and you can have 400+m shots on major avenues of approach coming off the beach or down from Lavic. Two shots off, then down the back side and scoot away up the wadi. Works even better if you dig up the road a little so they have to stop and check it out.

This ain't stuff I picked up in my den.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Honestly a "combat rifle" has no place being shot in any way outside of the "3 positions" (standing, kneeling/sitting, prone).

In areas with lots of trees, you can also use a bungee cord wrapped around a tree trunk and rifle as a support. Quick to setup and quick to breakdown for those 'shoot and scoot' opportunities.

 

[goon]

In areas with lots of trees, you can also use a bungee cord wrapped around a tree trunk and rifle as a support. Quick to setup and quick to breakdown for those 'shoot and scoot' opportunities.

Or just rest against the tree. I rest against all kinds of stuff (with my hand, never the forearm or the barrel of the rifle) any time I get the chance.
Use whatever helps you hit.

 

[Gewehr98]

Amen.

Use whatever helps you hit.

I'm thinking that while my partner exposes his trauma-plated backside to enemy fire, I should be able to use the diversion to my advantage, making use of the tactical electric mall kart as a secure rest, further enhancing my "minute-of-bad-guy" accuracy.

 

[c_yeager]

In areas with lots of trees, you can also use a bungee cord wrapped around a tree trunk and rifle as a support. Quick to setup and quick to breakdown for those 'shoot and scoot' opportunities.

Of course, and this is vastly different from shooting off a rest. You do whatever you can to get some kind of support when you are shooting. Hence the existence of shooting sticks, bipods etc. My point is that a benchrest isnt going to be found in that situation.

 

[Dr.Rob]

A deer rifle doesn't NEED to be MOA at 100 yards, but i prefer it to be.
While some guys claim 'miunte of deer' ie a 9 inch plate... I'd rather line up the shot and call it.

No it's not SHTF.

Nor is it target shooting.

But there are plenty of target shooters and hunters I wouldn't want shooting at me. A guy who pratices often, and in varying conditions is going to be a better shot than most.

Practice is the key.

 

[Master Blaster]

I really love reading about folks who have a collection of rifles that "shoot 1/4 moa, or better all day long".

I have seen lots of very expensive tricked out rifles, hunting rifles etc.
The only rifle I have ever seen actually shoot 1/4 moa or better for 5 shot + groups, all day long was an 80lb unlimited class benchrest rifle, in 6mm PPC mounted on a sliding machine rest.


The owner is a member of my club, and shoots in benchrest competition where the rule is that you have to be able to carry the rifle to the bench yourself, otherwise anything goes.

The real test is what you can do off hand, sitting kneeling or prone.

Oh, Olympic class .22lr competition rifles are also capable of 1/4 Moa at 50 meters for 5-10 shots.

Here is a link to a competition bulletin from an unlimited class benchrest match
note that only the top three competitors were able to best .25 MOA and read about the custom benchrest guns they were shooting.

http://nbrsa.benchrest.com/sw/reports/sg0602.htm

Here is a pic of an unlimited BR gun:




Here is a link to the Lilja barrels site where they mention the group sizes shot by 1000 yard benchrest champions:

http://www.riflebarrels.com/winners/1000yards.htm


Ther is a big difference between shooting a 1/4" moa group once on a lucky day and doing it "all day long."

 

[DT Guy]

I can't imagine what kind of S would have to HTF to make me carry that around!


Larry

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

As a few others have said if you have a nice acurate rifle what ever it is I would think if you can use it close to its potential then you are ahead of the game.
I think some of my rifles are very good but can I hold to what they can , I do not think so as if I can hold 1.5 moa over 20 or so shots at distance I feel I have done my part but more than likely the rifle is capible of of at least 1/2 that much so what it comes down to I believe is being the best you can be with your rifle.

Now as far as the difference between shooting off a bench , standing on your own two feet or running 100 yards then shoot its all apples and apples to me. If you are capible of doing all of that I think you are way ahead of the game. but if like me you are 50 and do not get around as much as someone who's half my age then I do not see myself having to do alot of that and does that mean I should just give up? Don't think so.

I believe that a person who can hit his target at 500 or more can also do it at 25 also but it is not always the case going the other way. why not be able to hit the kill zone at any of those mentioned yardages.

If you are playing out a shot I truely feel there are going to be a whole lot less of me than them and I am more important to my cause as not to give my life for even 2 or 3 or 10 of their number. If you do not have a choice thats different then make your enemy pay while you last.

Practice in what skill developement you think you should but it is never wise to say your way is always better than the other guys. in some or most ways it may be but not always.
The guy in the tank my be able to kill you at a long distance but sooner or later to control the area he must come out, sit down for a cup of coffee or visit a site or what ever.
Practice my fellow Americans for what ever you do it is better than nothing.

 

[Swamprabbit]

Here is another way to think about it (lets have some fun here). When you say a rifle shoots 2 MOA, that means, roughly, that a group of shots (from solid rest) at 100 yards will cluster inside a circle measuring 2 inches. Since we assume that the intended point of impact was the center of that circle, then we can assume that this also means that any shot fired from that rifle will impact within 1" of the intended point of aim.

Now, take for example, you are shooting at a target at 600 yards with your 2 MOA rifle. Since 2 MOA is roughly 12" at 600, then your shot should land (assuming no other variables) within 6" of your point of aim. For most larger critters (deer, elk, etc.) that shot will still land in the kill zone if you aimed for the middle of it.

Do I want more accuracy? From bolt guns - definitely! For military styled guns, this is good enough for me. If I'm shooting my FAL at targets at 600yds, I doubt if I will know if the range is exactly 600 or 550 or 650. At that distance, the rate of drop on that .308 bullet is more of a detriment to me than the fact that its shooting 2 MOA.

Like I said, just have some fun here.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Case in point:

my pal Bryan is a MUCH better long range shooter than me. He's patient, he doesn't smoke, he takes his time, he controls his breathing, he's lethal past 400 yards.

On the other hand, I can bail out of a moving truck, shoulder roll and be on target in a second. My snap shooting skills are far superior to his. He's seen me barge through a herd of running animals, picking out my target, drop to one knee and drop and animal with a heart shot before he's managed to get a round loaded.

Makes us a great antelope hunting team. I take everyting under 300 yards, Bryan takes everything over 300.

I think Bryan would make a better 'sniper.' But he'd want me close for 'security.'

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

The hard part is being able to call your shot and trusting in that call totally.
You must take all things into consideration when talking about making that shot within the desired moa. alot plays into this like , rifle, ammo, person behind the trigger, conditions like wind, light and some others factors that all will effect the moa you get.
If your rifle will hold 1 moa and you can hold 1 moa and your ammo loses another 1/2 moa . those are maybe extremes but they are all important to your outcome.
You will very seldom see the same conditions at 500 or 600 yards or longer between alot of shots so you should know exactly where your shot went. left , right or what ever.
Knowing you can put all your shots within 1 1/2 moa at 600 or in any prone position for me anyway is good enough and maybe not as good as it can be but with what I have and what I get out of it thats fine for me for now as it should get better. for say sitting under 3 moa and for standing under 6 or 7.
I also do not plan on taking a shot off hand at long distances either.

you can judge your distance a little by what your sight picture tells you. A person size target at 600 yards does seems small and just moving to say 500 yards makes the same seem large and easy.
I am making all the above statements with the use of a ar15 with open sights also so if you have a worse or better rifle then you make the call.

a example I had a few friends out for a little practice last summer and one got in the pits and ran a target up at 600 yards while me and another friend who had not tried it but is a police officer and was interested in learning.
I with him watching walked up to the 600 yard line pulled my ar out of the case got down in a prone position with 27 rounds in the rifle . Adjusted the rifle cold and fired one shot, target came back up with the 3" spotter directly in the middle of the chest heart high. he said no way so I fired the second shot and it hit the same spotter about 1 inch off the spindle to the right.
Target went down and when it came back up put the other 25 rounds into the chest in 50 seconds, actually around 45 seconds but target went down in 50 seconds. open sights 600 yards. at 500 I can put 10 shots into 3 targets in the same amount of time or 15 into two targets in that amount of time. can do more but have not tried as I think my group would open up to much.
Can others do it YES they can and I help as many as I can learn how ever year. Even did a 20 out of 24 shots at 500 with clearing a jam. I rushed a little and had time left so I did not need to miss those 4 shots so I learned a leason that day also. Helped another friend who was averaging 18 to 20 hits out of 25 and he has done this a few years and with just a small suggestion he hit 24 and 25 out of 25 after that. he has it now and is very good with it.

 

[RevDisk]

Next time you're out, put out a target at 100, and shoot it from prone, kneeling, sitting, and standing with your quarter inch MOA rifle. I guarantee the resulting group won't be a quarter inch.

Snort.

You think that's a true test of marksmenship? Ha!

When I was going through Schutzenschnur (German Army marksmenship), I faced the most difficult shooting possible.

One of the stages is firing single rounds from an MG42 at the center of targets (a small portion of the target) blended into the surrounding environment. 15 rounds, eight have to be hits. Not easy to begin with. To make things more complicated, I was assigned a very attractive female soldier as my instructor. Mind you, this was eight months into an deployment.

I fire off maybe six or seven rounds. All very close misses, hitting the target but not hitting the center. All of the sudden, I feel something wack the back of my k-pot, diving my head into the dirt. The rather attractive instructor jumps on top of me, wiggling around doing something with the MG42. To this day, I have no idea what it was nor did I really care then or now.

"ok to shoot now!" Uhm, no, I wasn't. I needed a minute and a smoke. Instead, I tried to zen out and ignore the very lovely hands guiding my hands through rechambering a round. Still not sure how, but I do manage to completely zen out, and fire eight single shots smacking dead center of every target, scoring expert. I went off and chain smoked the rest of my pack of cigarettes.

Shooting from the standing? Ha. Try shooting after someone really attractive wiggled on top of you for a minute, after eight months of a deployment, and then let's see your shot groups!