Misfires... how to deal with?

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LeafsFan

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Okay, here's my newbie question for this week.

Say I'm at the range, firing away. I chamber a round, pull the trigger, but instead of "Boom!" I get a "Click."

My first thought is to keep the muzzle pointed downrange, but after that...? :confused:

Should I just work the bolt and eject the dud cartridge and keep shooting? Or is there a danger of the cartridge going off by its self after I eject it?

I figure it's better to ask about this before it happens to me for real one day, eh? :eek:
 
Good time to practice malfunction drills. On a pistol usually the tap, rack, bang will work in that situation (smack the bottom of the magazine, rack the slide to eject the dud, and fire).
It won't go off by itself once it's out of the gun. If you are going Rambo with a full auto for a while there is a small chance of it being hot enough to cook off a round if it stays the chamber but I don't think you are in that category yet :)
Inspect the primer to see if it was a light primer strike. Usually I'll put them back in after the gun is empty and try firing them again and 99% of the time they'll fire normally the second time around.
 
It won't go off by itself once it's out of the gun.
Click to expand...

If it won't go after once it's out, how come some safety articles I have read say that after a misfire one should continue to point the gun at the target for at least a few seconds. Is there no need to do that with modern firearms?
 
manual of arms

There is a phenomenon called "hangfire." A propellant delayed shot.

It would be a safer procedure to wait for a thirty second count, while maintaining the muzzle point downrange, before extracting and ejecting the unfired round.
 
I've had a hangfire, rented a gun at the range and also had to buy their ammo for it, had several misfires also. It's very startling, about the time you think you've waited long enough "BANG!"...

ETA: don't rmember what brand ammo it was. As above, had to buy it from the range for their gun that I rented...
 
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I always been told one should keep the gun pointed downrange for thirty seconds in case of a "hangfire".
 
Yep, keep the muzzle pointing in a safe direction for thirty seconds, then extract the faulty cartridge and drop it in some water.
 
A minute is usually good when dealing with surplus (who knows what could be wrong with it).
 
Good answers, thanks!

So, is there a "communal bucket" of water at most ranges for dropping hang-fired cartridges in? (I've only been shooting 2 times in my life, back in the mid-80s, so I don't rememeber if there were any there.) Or should I just eject and toss them to one side after a 30-60 second wait? :confused:

Do hangfires happen all that often, actually? I just bought my first rifle the other day, a Mosin 91/30, and ordered a case of 1960s Czech surplus to feed it with. Just wondering how many times per 100 I might expect a hangfire when I go to the range to shoot for the first time. :uhoh:

My theory is that being mentally prepared for a situation is half the battle, eh? Plus, I'd rather look like a newb at this board annonamously than at the range in person... ;)
 
Personally unless its a (high speed) training class or actual event I pause when gun goes click instead of bang (its been ages since that has happened I actually can't recall it with Glock)...
Anyway I (use to) keep gun pointed downrange and rethink what just happened. Did I fire all 6 already? (revolver) or did I fully load mag (auto) and slide stop failed to catch? I then remove mag (keeping gun pointed down range) and tilt gun so I can see brass case (is it loaded?) If so I look around (gun pointed down range) By now time has passed so I roll gun on side (away from my face) and pull back slide so bullet bounces down range (did I mention I keep muzzle pointed down range?)
Some ranges I wave over RO (place I don't know) and inform him/her ask what they want done. (most get blank look so just say "thanks I got it")
ONE range I recall had a bucket with funnel top thing. IIRC the idea was to open gun so bullet dropped into funnel and into bucket. Never saw it used.
Tap/rack/bangs are fine in training/life but range practice its worth taking your time.
 
There seems to be two conflicting viewpoints on this subject and I believe both have extremely valid points about the procedure to follow in case of a failure to fire.

Group A says to are to keep the gun pointed at the target wait for a period of time ( 30 Seconds or so ) then remove unfired round from gun.

Group B says to "Tap-Rack-Bang" i.e. ensure seating of magazine, rack the slide and pull the trigger completing the manuever as quickly as possible.



Does anyone have any hard numbers of hangfire occurance rate? Especially in length of delay between the time the hammer hits the primer ant the moment of firing?





Tap/rack/bangs are fine in training/life but range practice its worth taking your time.
Click to expand...

Sounds reasonable but.

My understanding is that current belief in training is that "When in a gunfight we do not rise to the occasion but rather we fall back on what we do in training" This was realized after finding dead LEOs with fired brass in their pockets. Seems this was how their trainor had them shoot while practicing to avoid having to pick up their brass. it is believed that a number of LEOs have lost their lives due to this type of "training artifact" . So if you practice some of the time waiting and some of the time doing a "TRB" what are you going to do if you are involved in a gunfight? Me when given two chsices I usually manage to do the wrong one.

NukemJim
 
hang fires are extremely rare, so no, a range will not have a communal bucket of water.

after a 30 second wait, removing the cartridge eliminates the chance of danger down to that of getting struck by lightning while being attacked by an alligator...possible but not very likely at all.

The real risk of a hangfire is that the muzzle will not be pointed in a safe direction when the cartridge DOES go off. Remember, a cartridge without a gun around it that goes off normally will just push the bullet out a fraction of an inch, then sit there and burn.

The practice 'tap-rap-bang' crowd is of course still keeping the muzzle pointed down range at the target, not doing this manuever off the line, so they too are being safe. I suppose in line with the lighting striking while being attacked by an alligator, it is possible that a hangfire would fully ignite at exactly the same moment as the slide is being racked, but that is unrealistically rare, and if it did happen, while the gun would be damaged, and possibly the shooter's hands, no one else is going to get hurt.
 
Tap Rack Bang.

Some ranges will require the several second count and then disposing of the dud round. In fact, a lot do because of percieved liability. In reality, a cartridge detonating outside a chamber is not much more than a firecracker. There's nothing to contain the gas expansion to propel the bullet and the case mouth will release the bullet before case rupture. The case will go farther than the bullet, and that's only going to be a few feet. Do I want to be standing on top of one when it decides to go "BANG!"? No, but ejecting and side stepping a few feet is cool.

In my experience, not nearly so extensive as others here, hangfires are very uncommon. I've never had one. Duds, yes, but not often. One per several thousand.
 
Misfires in a revolver can be a royal pain. I've had a few. Sitting there going, One Mississippi, Two Mississippi...., dump the cylinder, pick out the offender. Reload. Never had a misfire in a revolver with factory ammo, only with old handloads (not mine). My biggest fear with a revolver is doing rapid fire - see how quick you can empty - and having a misfire decide to fire after the shell has rotated from the barrel position. Bye bye revolver.
 
Has anyone here had any personal (not anecdotal) experience with a hangfire while using modern ammunition?

pax
 
I have, and it was all my fault.

I had loaded a run of .44 Magnum cartridges. The load data for this cartridge was my favorite: 8.5 of Unique, behind a 250 grain Keith type LSWC bullet, sized to .430 inch, and Federal Large Pistol primers.

I had gone through about 30 rounds, and had taken aim at a fresh target. I pulled the trigger, and got the click of doom. :uhoh:

I started to simply remove the round, but a still, small voice of caution said, "Keep the gun pointed downrange". After about five seconds, I heard a "sizzling" sound, just like bacon frying. This sound went on for about 2 seconds--I tightened my grip--then the round fired, with full force and power!

I still had about a box and a half left, but I stopped there, made sure my revolver was cleared, and left the range. At home, I pulled every one of the loaded rounds, and found gobs of bullet lube in two more cartridges.

I then carefully checked my press (at that time, an RCBS Piggyback) and found the problem. It seems that a good quantity of lube had migrated to the powder drop, and had built up over time. This lube had been scraped into some of the cases when I loaded the ammunition.

That's my experience with hangfires. No, it was not commercially loaded, but it was modern ammo.
 
it goes without saying

For the inexperienced THR members:

The wait, count, and control your muzzle proceedure is used at the target range of course.

The tap,rack, ect. proceedure is for training for self defense; combat.

Confused? We will do as our training has conditioned us, so.
The first training -reflex to practice, either at the target range or for the combat shooting, is the training of your mind to be aware of the circumstances and in control of your actions. To know whether you are training for which, and where you are.

I would add here, that since many new semi autos are DA, then a quick pull of the trigger -again would be recommended under this circumstance.

I have seen so many shooters recently doing the rack action by keeping their grip upon the slide after it has been withdrawn; extraction, and then, riding the slide forward into battery -as though it was a bolt, and they were feeding the chamber, that I have to comment. A more efficient proceedure is, after withdrawing the slide full travel; then thrust or push your gun holding hand forward, completely stripping the gun out of the slide gripping hand by force. And follow through the motion into the aimed position at the target.
Using this technique will eliminate misfeeds that can occur while riding the slide with the gripping hand.

Pax: I had experienced hangfires with 81 mm mortar rounds!
Mortars are equivalent to ten handgrenades or so. They are lobed in a sharp arc high in the air from a barrel angled to the ground. It makes you anxious to deal with eleven pounds of high explosive and all, setting in a sizziling hot steel tube with the propellant charges (same stuff as bullet propellant, but without the graphite coating) -in contact with the heated steel. The first part of the proceedure was to publically announce "Hangfire," and then wait. Kick the tube vigorously....The rounds were designed not to arm until they left the tube, but still it made you breathe heavy removing it.

I saw my dad deal with a rifle hangfire. It had been surplus ammo as someone else posted.

Don't place the unfired round in your pocket or bag. I'm not being cynical here; we all have been amazed at what some people will do. Just look at the safety instructions that come with power tools, etc. It's a wide world.
 
I had a misfire during our last qualification for my PD. It was in the middle of a string, so there was no time to determine whether it was a failure to feed, misfire or what. Our training is, if no 'bang', tap, rack, try again as quickly as possible. I was able to accomplish this and get off the rest of my rounds in the allotted time. Still qualified expert, even with the dropped round. We looked at it later and there was a good strike on the primer, so it was just a dud.

If you do any amount of shooting with training ammo, ya gotta expect a few duds, maybe one in a 100,000. Duty and carry ammo should have a far lower failure rate. Makes for good training in immediate action drills. If you've never had a malfunction under pressure, you don't know if you're training correctly.

I had experienced hangfires with 81 mm mortar rounds!
Click to expand...

Never had it happen to me, but range procedure for a hangfire on an M-60 was to break the links on the ammo belt and wait for a minute. This was to prevent a "runaway gun" if the rounds started cooking off due to a hot barrel. That would be a *very* good reason to keep the muzzle pointed downrange. :D
 
I had experienced hangfires with 81 mm mortar rounds!
.... The first part of the proceedure was to publically announce "Hangfire," and then wait. Kick the tube vigorously....The rounds were designed not to arm until they left the tube, but still it made you breathe heavy removing it.
Click to expand...

I remember that procedure well. If the vigorous shaking of the tube didn't make it go "bang" you'd have to turn the socket in the baseplate to release the ball-end of the tube, and gently lift it up by the breech so as to tip that high explosive round out of the muzzle into the waiting hands of your mate (being careful not to let the round slide back onto the firing stud :eek: ).

Talk about sweating bullets!

Back to Pax's question, I think the only time I've had hangfires was when I was a kid, and cleaned up a pile of mixed .22 LR of mixed parentage and considerable age which had been sitting in an old fruitbowl in my grandfather's tool cupboard. That stuff was downright dodgy, and I had more than one rupture as well as a fair number of hangfires. None "hung" more than about a second, but it was very distracting. That was probably close to 30 years ago, and I don't recall having a hangfire in what would be some tens of thousands of rounds since then.
 
I know hangfires are a potential hazard, but I've trained myself so that a T-R-B is my immediate action drill with any failure to fire with an automatic. I had a new gun that was malfunctioning about every 5th or so magazine. It took me half the morning to diagnose the problem, because I kept clearing it reflexively.
 
I'd just like to chime in with the other part of the malfunction clearance that nobody seems to have hit on:

It should be (as Pax has in her web instructions) Tap, Rack/Flip, (assess and) bang. The flip to make the ejection port face the ground helps gravity and the flip energy help to eject a bad round (if indeed it is a misfire/hangfire).

That means, to me, "Tap Rack Flip" is the clearance, and "Bang" is the DECISION that you need to shoot. If you train for TAP RACK BANG all the time, you run a very real risk of shooting something or someone you don't want to shoot when you're not in training anymore.

Train like you fight and you will fight like you trained.

Secondly, hangfires are very exciting when they go off outside of the gun, but they're not very dangerous unless you're holding one or it happens in the air in front of your face. The case normally ruptures and the bullet actually moves a bit (with part of the case still attached), but it's mainly a loud firecracker. Without the support of the chamber, the energy is not channeled in only one direction.
 
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