(MO) Police Ditch Shotguns for Rifles
- Thread starter Drizzt
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Cracked Butt,
Bear in mind of course, when I am talking police situations and 00 buckshot in shotguns, I am talking commonly utilized police type equipment here such as a Remington 870 and run of the mill slugs as used by the majority of departments as opposed to some super fully choked Turkey Gun shooting super magnum rounds with special wads that cup the pellets (not saying you use this, just keeping it realistic to most potential police combat scenarios).
Just a note: I am not supportive of getting rid of those shotguns at all, I am just talking about using buckshot beyond about 15 yards. I don't think it is a good move in most police type shootouts beyond 15 yards simply because there are much bvetter choices to be used at that range.
All the best,
Glenn B
You missed my point almost entirely and your post makes my point even stronger. I am not talking turkey hunting but tactical combat shooting with buckshot. My point was that it would be extremely foolish and possibly negligent (in a police type shooting) to fire buckshot at a man sized target beyond 15 yards because it will most likely wind up that some of the pellets miss the target beyond that range. Remember we are not in the woods turkey hunting but are more likely in an urban or suburban or even rural setting where those fly by pellets may hit someone else. Every time an officer fires his weapon he is responsible for each bullet he has fired, or in the case of 00 buckshot for each pellet.
So if only one piece of buckshot hits the target at 25 yards, there is a large number of pellets (I think 8 if I recall correctly) that have not hit the target and have the potential to hit something or someone else. No at 25 yards, it is not a wise, prudent or good move to use buckshot for police type combat under most circumstances. It would be much wiser at that range to use your pistol, a carbine, a sub-gun, a 12 gauge firing rifled slugs, or a rifle and; of those choices it would be wisest to use a shotgun with slugs, a sub-gun (on single round mode), a carbine of suitable caliber or, a rifle (and the rifle may be too much in some urban/suburban/rural situations). Would you really rather chance 8 pellets going astray than one single round? This is something an officer (and his or her department) MUST consider.
Bear in mind of course, when I am talking police situations and 00 buckshot in shotguns, I am talking commonly utilized police type equipment here such as a Remington 870 and run of the mill slugs as used by the majority of departments as opposed to some super fully choked Turkey Gun shooting super magnum rounds with special wads that cup the pellets (not saying you use this, just keeping it realistic to most potential police combat scenarios).
Just a note: I am not supportive of getting rid of those shotguns at all, I am just talking about using buckshot beyond about 15 yards. I don't think it is a good move in most police type shootouts beyond 15 yards simply because there are much bvetter choices to be used at that range.
All the best,
Glenn B
Rickstir
Member
SLPD standard issue is a Glock, I am not sure of the caliber. Remember these are the officers that fired 28 shots into a car and only inflicted a flesh wound in the driver. His wife and three kids escaped injury.
In another incident a black female officer emptied her weapon and spage magazine in short order, not even getting close to the target. She demanded another mag from her partner and he refused. She sued him and the department for racial discrimination. She lost in court.
It takes a certain kind of person to be both an affective chief and be political correct at the same time. Too much of a challange for Mokwa.
In another incident a black female officer emptied her weapon and spage magazine in short order, not even getting close to the target. She demanded another mag from her partner and he refused. She sued him and the department for racial discrimination. She lost in court.
It takes a certain kind of person to be both an affective chief and be political correct at the same time. Too much of a challange for Mokwa.
Flyboy
Member
Yeah, that's what it said, and I'm sure that's what the police said. I'd be really interested to see how many of the people from whom the money was seized were actually convicted, though.
Any accountants or such in the St. Louis area want to file a public records request? Get records on the dollar value seized from each individual, then track those individuals through the system? Might be an interesting project.
Mannlicher
Member
now I wonder what bozo thought that replacing shotties with 9mm carbines was a good idea? .223 maybe, but NOT a pistol caliber carbine. 
Black Majik
Member
I opened the thread hoping that another county police department received AR-15s, but 9mm Carbines?!
And then as I read thru the thread I kept thinking that it was a CA department in Norcal that made the switch, then had to constantly remind myself that this was a MO department.
Then I thought to myself, "What a shame... shoulda gotten AR-15s, or at least kept both the shotgun and the pansy 9mm rifle. They shoulda stepped up and gotten tommy guns in .45ACP, a REAL caliber"
And then as I read thru the thread I kept thinking that it was a CA department in Norcal that made the switch, then had to constantly remind myself that this was a MO department.
Then I thought to myself, "What a shame... shoulda gotten AR-15s, or at least kept both the shotgun and the pansy 9mm rifle. They shoulda stepped up and gotten tommy guns in .45ACP, a REAL caliber"
carebear
Member
Well, what exactly are you doing with large amounts of cash?
Obviously the presumption should be you were buying or selling drugs.
Obviously the presumption should be you were buying or selling drugs.
Beren
Moderator Emeritus
I need to get into the law enforcement firearms supply business. It looks like easy money. Next year, I could try selling a "migration package" to Colt 9mm LE Carbines for "increased compatibility with best-of-breed sighting accessories to maximize effectiveness in urban operations and minimize risk to the civilian population." THEN, the following year, a switchover to 5.56mm for "better effectiveness against the growing use of body armor by violent offenders."
D
DanS
Guest
My best friend who was a SLPD officer for many years told me that most of the female officers couldn't handle the shotgun, so they almost failed to qualify with it. They lowered standards for some officers. He carried an issued Glock in 40 S&W.
SLPD had to errect a wall made from RR ties between the range and I-55, because too many cops were shooting cars and/or hitting the hospital and surrounding houses in the neighborHOOD with stray rounds. I still don't understand why the range wasn't turned 180 degrees so the cops would be facing the Mississippi river that is probably 1/2 mile wide or bigger in that area. I guess it's safer to shoot at passing cars on the interstate than an occational barge on the river.
If the Chief of Police says that the guns will be destroyed then that probably is a true statement. St. Louis is a very liberal town and they hate for private law abiding citizens to have a firearm. They still refuse to issue CCW permits even though ordered by the Govenor to do so. But in all fairness that is the SL sheriffs dept., which has/had a problem of hiring felons, those felons were allowed to carry guns.
SLPD had to errect a wall made from RR ties between the range and I-55, because too many cops were shooting cars and/or hitting the hospital and surrounding houses in the neighborHOOD with stray rounds. I still don't understand why the range wasn't turned 180 degrees so the cops would be facing the Mississippi river that is probably 1/2 mile wide or bigger in that area. I guess it's safer to shoot at passing cars on the interstate than an occational barge on the river.
If the Chief of Police says that the guns will be destroyed then that probably is a true statement. St. Louis is a very liberal town and they hate for private law abiding citizens to have a firearm. They still refuse to issue CCW permits even though ordered by the Govenor to do so. But in all fairness that is the SL sheriffs dept., which has/had a problem of hiring felons, those felons were allowed to carry guns.
fistful
member
I have lived in the Saint Louis area most of my life and, compared to other major cities, I don't know if you could say it is more liberal.
In any case, Saint Louis is reportedly now issuing permits, now that the funding excuse has been dealt with. Poor schmucks, I bet some of the clerks really hate it.
In any case, Saint Louis is reportedly now issuing permits, now that the funding excuse has been dealt with. Poor schmucks, I bet some of the clerks really hate it.
Wow. Just, wow.
So going to something with a fraction of the power and energy is upping the ante eh? OK, if you say so. $1,200 plastic pistols - hilarious. As mentioned, this has more to do with greased palms and/or recoil sensitivity for the womyn on the force, than actual analysis of need in actual likely scenarios.
As for melting the guns, that's just....
So going to something with a fraction of the power and energy is upping the ante eh? OK, if you say so. $1,200 plastic pistols - hilarious. As mentioned, this has more to do with greased palms and/or recoil sensitivity for the womyn on the force, than actual analysis of need in actual likely scenarios.
As for melting the guns, that's just....
fistful
member
Didn't notice that before. That's a good one. Must be the word "semi-automatic" that makes reporters think this new carbine is especially deadly.
Sorry to keep this whole 25-yard shot controversy alive, but what about officers just switching to slugs for longer shots? Too slow and too complicated?
joachim slim
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shotgun over 9mm
i carried a shotgun as my issue gun while at ft. campbell. i loved it on live fire range. they also still had the .45 grease guns. my son in law is a deputy in jefferson county mo. they carry gloks in 40s&w. i told him to please grab shotgun if he is in an urban setting. i also told him if he needed a rifle i would buy him a nice one in .223 or .308. i dont want him in a gun fight with a pellet rifle. i think the st. louis dept. got the 9mm rifle only because some P@$$! A$$ was afraid of recoil. :banghead:
i carried a shotgun as my issue gun while at ft. campbell. i loved it on live fire range. they also still had the .45 grease guns. my son in law is a deputy in jefferson county mo. they carry gloks in 40s&w. i told him to please grab shotgun if he is in an urban setting. i also told him if he needed a rifle i would buy him a nice one in .223 or .308. i dont want him in a gun fight with a pellet rifle. i think the st. louis dept. got the 9mm rifle only because some P@$$! A$$ was afraid of recoil. :banghead:
joachim slim
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- 11
melting guns
also when jefferson county has a auction all the good guns are never around. they always auction the junk. i watched them hurriedly remove a ruger 10-22 that was in fine shape. said it was considered para military and had to be detroyed. i guess they want to pound that old dumb dirt up everyones A$$.
also when jefferson county has a auction all the good guns are never around. they always auction the junk. i watched them hurriedly remove a ruger 10-22 that was in fine shape. said it was considered para military and had to be detroyed. i guess they want to pound that old dumb dirt up everyones A$$.
fistful
member
I assume you mean the new-fangled sights I spoke of. The thing is, those are useful for acquiring and aiming at your target, especially if the cop is not as good a shot as Sergeant York. Yes, I know, he used a bolt-action. Anyhoo, one might also ask why patrol cars need "crap" like an unneccesarily-long rifle, with unneccesarily-long cartridges, unneccesary over-penetration (I would guess) and an unneccesarily-limited capacity. All that and at the range a thirty-ought really becomes worthwhile, it's not so easy to see or aim at the target because it's not so easy to mount a scope on the rifle.
BlackCat
member
That's just in case anyone forgot what the war on drugs is all about. $$
coonan357
Member
if they drive the stratus as squad they might have to get roof racks for those rifles( man those cars are small)
The 870's that are in use by almost every department in the country don't have optics, and many of departments that are buying AR's with their Homeland Security money aren't buying optics either.
An EOTECH with batteries on a weapon designed to be left in the trunk of a car is just something to fail before you have to use it. Hopefully they installed them co-witnessed with those worthless iron sights that came on the weapon.
For a rural Sheriff’s office it's a surplus weapon with a round that just works and has inexpensive surplus available. I'm not sure I would want to try to put down a wounded feral cow in the roadway with a 9mm. I bet that doesn't happen often in St. Louis, but I wasn't recommending Garands for St Louis.
Have you used the irons on a Garand at distance? A torso sized target at 300m was part of the qualification course completed by hundreds of thousands of military personnel through the 50's.
lucky_fool
Member
If the Cx4 is good enough for the Galactica crew to take out Cylons, it ought to be good enough for the SLPD.
mountaindrew
Member
Just for information SLPD carries DAO berettas but I thought they were in 40S&W, but I might have been wrong on that. I have never seen a CITY officer carry a glock or anything other than the 92/96, whichever it is. Stl county is a seperat department, I I believe they mat carry Glocks
mountaindrew
Member
And to the earlier poster who talked about what you have a new shooter shoot, I have never found any gun easier to hit with or faster than a 9mm carbine with a red dot scope.
P. Plainsman
Member
Hmm, what to make of this? Certainly a shot in the arm for Beretta and a validation of their marketing department.
If one takes the average St. Louis cop to be a competent shooter and gun handler, who knows guns and is not scared of them, then exchanging an 870 for a 9mm Storm carbine is plainly a degradation in firepower -- the reaction of most of us on this forum.
If one takes the average St. Louis cop to be a duffer who is still a little uncomfortable with the whole gun thing, then a lightweight 9mm carbine with a good optic is a more reasonable choice. Mild-mannered, low recoil, aids in careful shot placement. For all the partially justified scorn that some of THR's gunnies pour on the various pistol-caliber semi-auto carbines, they seem like a pretty good way to put something in the hands of a mediocre shooter that will enable him or her to make a contribution to a firefight. Better than a handgun.
Where these Storms may get the St. Louis PD in trouble is if patrol officers erroneously conclude that the presence of this carbine in their trunk makes them capable of responding to tough, armored, and/or dangerous threats -- that they can perch behind the squad car and trade fire with a nutjob with a .308. Nope, call in SWAT.
Bottom line: I'd vastly prefer an AR or an 870 if I were a cop, but given the realities of training (and politics) in most urban PDs, I can sort of see what the St. L. brass were thinking.
Just my two cents.
PS: As a pretty green shotgunner, I have to admit I can't always put a clean pattern on a target at 25 yards with typical cop hardware: 2 3/4" 00 buck loads in a short 870 with cylinder choke. It's only eight or nine pellets. To me, though, this is a reason for the cops to shift to 1 Buck or even 4 Buck loads, rather than a reason to ditch the shotgun for a pistol carbine. Quick shots at 25 with an open choke and 1 or 4 Buck virtually always give me a disabling pattern of hits.
If one takes the average St. Louis cop to be a competent shooter and gun handler, who knows guns and is not scared of them, then exchanging an 870 for a 9mm Storm carbine is plainly a degradation in firepower -- the reaction of most of us on this forum.
If one takes the average St. Louis cop to be a duffer who is still a little uncomfortable with the whole gun thing, then a lightweight 9mm carbine with a good optic is a more reasonable choice. Mild-mannered, low recoil, aids in careful shot placement. For all the partially justified scorn that some of THR's gunnies pour on the various pistol-caliber semi-auto carbines, they seem like a pretty good way to put something in the hands of a mediocre shooter that will enable him or her to make a contribution to a firefight. Better than a handgun.
Where these Storms may get the St. Louis PD in trouble is if patrol officers erroneously conclude that the presence of this carbine in their trunk makes them capable of responding to tough, armored, and/or dangerous threats -- that they can perch behind the squad car and trade fire with a nutjob with a .308. Nope, call in SWAT.
Bottom line: I'd vastly prefer an AR or an 870 if I were a cop, but given the realities of training (and politics) in most urban PDs, I can sort of see what the St. L. brass were thinking.
Just my two cents.
PS: As a pretty green shotgunner, I have to admit I can't always put a clean pattern on a target at 25 yards with typical cop hardware: 2 3/4" 00 buck loads in a short 870 with cylinder choke. It's only eight or nine pellets. To me, though, this is a reason for the cops to shift to 1 Buck or even 4 Buck loads, rather than a reason to ditch the shotgun for a pistol carbine. Quick shots at 25 with an open choke and 1 or 4 Buck virtually always give me a disabling pattern of hits.
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