Modern top break revolvers?

[Kleanbore]

Not a prototype, you can buy from Anderson Wheeler for $10,000..

So they posted, a few years ago.

I haven's seen any reviews.

The price would not be my only concern. That latch looks terribly inadequate, and the opening angle is atrocious.

 

[Gordon]

But why no modern double-action top-break revolvers. I would love a modern Webley Mark VI inspired replica top break in 45 ACP.

This is my Webley Mark IV is 38/200

View attachment 912339

Schofield, S&W, Iver Johnson and several other makers made double action versions of their top breaks but I don't believe anyone makes a replica. They only make replicas of the single action versions.

Moonclips and a top-break would be pretty sweet.

Yup the last of the H&R and IJ centerfire top breaks can barely and sparingly take factory .38 S&W. I have NO DOUBT the .38 Webley Mark IV could push it a bit, but its still not a .38 Spl. , although I think it could be done Still if you want a kind "top Break" design for some reason the Modern well made CNC produced Derringers from the Great State of Texas can probably get that itch out of your system with finely designed mechanisms beyond the human abilities .

 

[Gordon]

way back ('79?) I ran a shaved Webley with .45ACP major (no internet to tell me otherwise) in a couple of IPSC local matches and the reloading time and "good enough" accuracy did me well.

-kBob

I did too KBOB and the dang think seemed to hold togeter just fine and with somer rear sight file work plenty accurate ! The good olde daze

 

[CajunBass]

I thought that Russian top break was an April fool joke from a few years back.

 

[mcb]

I did too KBOB and the dang think seemed to hold togeter just fine and with somer rear sight file work plenty accurate ! The good olde daze

Man I would love to find a Webley Mark VI (shaved or not) that did not cost well north $1000. I don't want a collector I want a shooter. The few Mark VI I have found locally have all been in horrible shape and they still wanted $700 plus.

 

[Gordon]

You got the best

 

[somethingbenign]

I thought that Russian top break was an April fool joke from a few years back.

If it was then they really ran with it. The gun made an appearance in the video game Battlefield 4. That was where I first heard the gun existed. Found out about the Metaba revolvers that way too actually.

 

[Monac]

Yup the last of the H&R and IJ centerfire top breaks can barely and sparingly take factory .38 S&W. I have NO DOUBT the .38 Webley Mark IV could push it a bit, but its still not a .38 Spl. , although I think it could be done Still if you want a kind "top Break" design for some reason the Modern well made CNC produced Derringers from the Great State of Texas can probably get that itch out of your system with finely designed mechanisms beyond the human abilities .

The FIRST of the Iver Johnson, Harrington & Richardson, Hopkins & Allens, and Smith & Wesson top-breaks could take black powder 38 S&W just fine. The last ones had no problem with smokeless loads. S&W built top-breaks for cartridges such as .44-40 and 44 Russian over 100 years ago, and .44-40 is a higher pressure round than 38 Special. The Webleys made for 455 Eley stood up to a diet of factory 45 ACP for decades before people realized how far beyond the design limits that was. The modern Schofield replicas are made for 45 Colt and 38 Special. Yes, the hinged frame is not as strong as a solid frame, but it is not exactly flimsy, either.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I think some people also argue that top break revolvers cannot be made for cartridges as long as 38 Special.

Those people are idiots. A Top Break can be made with a cylinder long enough for any cartridge one cares to name. The frame has to be long enough to house the cylinder, that's all there is to it.

You are correct about 38-40 and 44-40 in S&W Top Breaks. Originally, all the large frame S&W Top Breaks had cylinders 1 7/16" long. That was a good length for the 44 S&W American cartridge whose dimensions closely matched the old 44 Henry Rimfire cartridge. When the 44 Russian cartridge came along for the Russian model the dimensions were very similar to the earlier 44 S&W American round, except the American round used a heeled bullet, and the Russian round used a standard bullet whose outer diameter matched the inner diameter of the case. Which by the way is why 44 Russian, 44 Special, and 44 Magnum all use .429 diameter bullets, but that is a story for another day.

Anyway, when S&W approached the Army about a government contract to compete with the Colt Single Action Army, Smith needed to keep the 1 7/16" cylinder standard because they were selling thousands and thousands of Russian models to the Russian Government. Lengthening the cylinder and frame to accept the longer 45 Colt cartridge would have involved new tooling, which would have cut seriously into their ability to service their Russian contracts. Their production capacity was maxed out as it was. So when the Army insisted on a 45 caliber cartridge, it was no problem opening up the chambers and bores to .454, but they needed to keep producing a cylinder shorter than the Colt cylinder. Hence the shorter 45 Schofield cartridge. S&W only produced about 9,000 Schofield revolvers, so when the two Army contracts and Russian contracts were over, they were free to come up with new tooling for longer cylinders and frames. The New Model Number Three came in several different versions, it was eventually chambered for 13 different cartridges if memory serves, and a 1 9/16" cylinder, and correspondingly longer frame were made for the 44-40 and 38-40 cartridges. Pretty much the same story with the 44 Double Action and the 44-40 and 38-40 versions, although only 276 of the 38-40 Double Actions were ever produced.

the Schofield replicas use ordinary 45 Colt ammo

Allow me to gently correct you. As I said earlier, Uberti makes or has made in the past replicas of 4 of the 5 different models that were built on the S&W #3 sized top break frame. They are currently making an American model, they have been making a Russian and Schofield model for a long time, and they used to make a replica of the New Model Number Three called the Laramie. The only #3 sized Top Break Uberti is not making is the 44 Double Action. I always say all Schofields are #3s, but not all #3s are Schofields. See my earlier photos to see the differences.


Anyway, any Top Break will open wide enough to load and eject any length cartridge, as long as the cylinder is chambered for that cartridge. This Russian is opened wide enough to eject empties, but it will actually open much farther than that, beyond 90 degrees. The cylinder is 1 7/16" long and it is loaded with 44 Russian cartridges. If the cylinder was 1 9/16" long, it could handle 38-40, 44-40, or even 45 Colt cartridges, as long as the frame had been lengthened the additional 1/8" to accommodate the longer cylinder.






Uberti currently chambers their Russian and Schofield replica Top Breaks for 45 Colt, 44 Russian, 38 Special and 44-40. They are able to do this because they lengthened the cylinder enough to accommodate the longer cartridges. However they did not lengthen the frame a comparable amount, which is why the Uberti Top Breaks do not handle Black Powder very well, but that is another story for another day.




The last Top Breaks that S&W made were the 38 Double Action Perfecteds. These were made well into the era of solid frame revolvers with swing out cylinders, they were produced from 1909 until 1920.






The Perfected was the oddball of all the S&W Top Breaks, and there were lots and lots of them. The Perfected was a five shot 38 S&W (not 38 Special) revolver. Nothing unusual in that. The odd thing about the Perfected was it had a latch on the top strap AND a thumbpiece on the side. In order to open it one had to push the thumbpiece forward at the same time the latch on the top strap was lifted up. Do just one or the other and it would not open.






The Perfected model was a departure from all other S&W Top Breaks in another way. The frame was completely different than any other Top Break. The trigger guard was integral with the frame.






And the side plate was on the right side of the frame, not on the left as with every other S&W Top Break. In fact, the Perfected shared much of its frame design with the I frame swing out cylinder revolvers. Notice the similarity of the shape with this 32 Regulation Police. I'm not sure why Smith continued making the Perfected as long as 1920, well into the Hand Ejector era, but perhaps they kept making them because there was still a demand for Top Break revolvers. Or perhaps they kept making them because they had a lot of frames to use up. S&W never wasted anything. Anyway as with all S&W Top Breaks, the Perfected was never chambered for a powerful cartridge, only for the 38 S&W.






Regarding the cost to make a Top Break today, I always get a kick out of it when guys mention Computer Numerical Control (CNC) machining and how that should make things more affordable. I used to do some CNC programming and machining in another life. The cost savings of CNC is not so much the precision, you would be surprised at the precision that could be achieved with traditional hand cranked milling equipment with good fixturing. The savings comes from the fact that one operator can be running several CNC machines at once. You can't do that with a hand cranked machine. And a CNC operator does not have to be as highly skilled as a really good machinist, so you don't have to pay the CNC operator as much as you would a really good machinist in the old days.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

and .44-40 is a higher pressure round than 38 Special

Not really. Don't forget that all those 44-40 Top Break revolvers S&W was making over 100 years ago were made during the Black Powder era, and a 44-40 loaded with Black Powder does not develop as much pressure as a modern 38 Special. Hmmm...just checked one of my loading manuals. 44-40 maximum pressure is 13,000 cup. 38 Special is 17,000 psi. Not sure how cup relates to psi, but I'll bet 13,000 cup is less than 17,000 psi. You are correct though, the Perfecteds were made well into the 20th Century, and I have no problem shooting light smokeless 38 S&W rounds in them. My antique S&W Top Breaks never see Smokeless powder.

 

[Monac]

Thank you for replying at such length, Driftwood, and for correcting the things that needed it. I learn a lot of things here by finding out what I think I know is simply not so. And, as always, for the great pictures. I love the one of the three Perfected Models.

I only did a fast Google search for .44-40 maximum pressure, and I should have known that would not be enough for such an old cartridge, and one that was used both in pistols and rifles. American Rifleman talked about "Group 1" and "Group 2" rifles, and used CUP, so I went with Wikipedia, which gave flat figures of 22,000 psi for maximum pressure for the .44-40, and 17,000 psi for the 38 Special. As I said, I should have known things were not that simple.

What can I say? I like top breaks, and I guess instead of viewing the facts objectively, I am looking for reasons they might still be viable. But they are probably in the same class as the Luger or the Mauser Broomhandle - sure, somebody could make one today, but the cost would be terrific, and what would be the point, as a practical shooting gun? Still hard to believe it wouldn't make a nice 38 Special or 45 ACP though....

PS - Last night I did what I should have done in the first place, and looked up .44-40 in a cartridge reference book (Michael Bussard's "Ammo Encyclopedia", 6th Edition" . It gives the same 13,000 psi figures that Driftwood Johnson states. I hope I can remember it correctly.

 

[Speedo66]

The .44-40 had some special high velocity loads brought out in 1903, made for the strong Winchester '92 rifles.

They were discontinued because back then, same as now, people either didn't read the instructions or simply chose to ignore them when told not to use them in revolvers or Model 1873 rifles.

 

[whm1974]

The .44-40 had some special high velocity loads brought out in 1903, made for the strong Winchester '92 rifles.

They were discontinued because back then, same as now, people either didn't read the instructions or simply chose to ignore them when told not to use them in revolvers or Model 1873 rifles.

Didn't the 44-40 take every game animal, large and small in the Model 1873 lever action rifle?

 

[Speedo66]

Didn't the 44-40 take every game animal, large and small in the Model 1873 lever action rifle?

My post had to do with the Model '92 only high velocity rounds which were unhealthy for Model '73's.