absolute0
Member
Can anyone tell me if a Model 25 Smith & Wesson chambered in 45 Colt can be readily fit to shoot .45 ACP w/moonclips as well?
Moonclips for a model 25?
- Thread starter absolute0
- Start date
- Status
Jim Watson
Member
These folks will do the conversion. I have NOT had this done and I have never seen a gun that has had it done, and I have no idea how well it works. But they advertise it.
http://www.pinnacle-guns.com/revolver.asp
"Moonclips and a conversion produce a clean and useful alteration making your revolver easier and quicker to reload for competition, defense, hunting & recreation.
Smith & Wesson, J-Frame 5 Shot, K-Frame 6 Shot, L-Frame 581,681,586,686 & 686 plus, N-Frame 27/28, 57/657, 29, 629, & 625 LC. $80.00 (.45 LC cylinders can be cut to shoot both ACP and LC)"
http://www.pinnacle-guns.com/revolver.asp
"Moonclips and a conversion produce a clean and useful alteration making your revolver easier and quicker to reload for competition, defense, hunting & recreation.
Smith & Wesson, J-Frame 5 Shot, K-Frame 6 Shot, L-Frame 581,681,586,686 & 686 plus, N-Frame 27/28, 57/657, 29, 629, & 625 LC. $80.00 (.45 LC cylinders can be cut to shoot both ACP and LC)"
DragonFire
Member
Using moonclips will allow the cartridges to be spaced off of the rim (well the moonclip really). That's why the 610 can shoot both 40 S&W and 10mm. The 10mm will work without moonclips (but won't eject) but the 40's fall too far into the cylinder.
Check out TKcustom (moonclips.com). They have some good info and can recommend a good gunsmith in your area who can mill the cylinder to accept moonclips. That's not to say Pinnacle-guns isn't good, I've never dealt with them, but by using a (relatively) local smith might allow you to bring your gun to him instead of mailing it.
Last time I looked, the 10mm Auto and .40 S&W cartridges were both pistol cartridges with identical head dimensions. The only difference between the two is length. So yes, using moonclips you can shoot either in an S&W model 610 revolver without making any modifications to the gun.
The .45 Colt is a revolver cartridge, designed to headspace on the rim. The chamber is not shouldered at the front to headspace it, as is usually the practice with the .45 ACP. The rim is .512” diameter x .060” thick, with a body diameter at the rim of .480”. There is no extractor groove to accommodate a moon clip.
The .45 ACP is a pistol cartridge, with a head diameter of .470”, with an identical body diameter and an extractor groove. It is supposed to headspace off of the case mouth, but it can do so off of moon clips. Do notice that there is a .010” difference in the respective case diameters.
The proposed modification is to turn off some metal at the back of the cylinder to make room for the moon clips. Thereafter you must use moonclips with both cartridges because the .45 Colt can no longer headspace off of the rim. You must also juggle things a bit because of the substantial difference between the rim thicknesses between the two cartridges. The headspace must be precise because the firing pin on the revolver cannot “reach out and touch” the primer if the headspace is too great, and if it’s too tight the cartridges will bind on the breech face and the cylinder not revolve.
Now I suppose someone might be able to accomplish all of this and make it work, and if someone wants to do it to their gun, go ahead. As for my own, I’m not going to risk messing up the cylinder, nor do I want to be in a position where I must use somebody’s moonclips when I want to shoot the cartridge the gun was made to shoot without them.
I realize that the moonclip modification is popular with some gamers, and within that environment I see nothing wrong with it – but I also notice that none of the revolver manufacturers have offered anything along this line. Taurus floated a trial balloon, with a .357 Magnum /.38 Special /9mm Para. set-up but it never saw the light of day.
The .45 Colt is a revolver cartridge, designed to headspace on the rim. The chamber is not shouldered at the front to headspace it, as is usually the practice with the .45 ACP. The rim is .512” diameter x .060” thick, with a body diameter at the rim of .480”. There is no extractor groove to accommodate a moon clip.
The .45 ACP is a pistol cartridge, with a head diameter of .470”, with an identical body diameter and an extractor groove. It is supposed to headspace off of the case mouth, but it can do so off of moon clips. Do notice that there is a .010” difference in the respective case diameters.
The proposed modification is to turn off some metal at the back of the cylinder to make room for the moon clips. Thereafter you must use moonclips with both cartridges because the .45 Colt can no longer headspace off of the rim. You must also juggle things a bit because of the substantial difference between the rim thicknesses between the two cartridges. The headspace must be precise because the firing pin on the revolver cannot “reach out and touch” the primer if the headspace is too great, and if it’s too tight the cartridges will bind on the breech face and the cylinder not revolve.
Now I suppose someone might be able to accomplish all of this and make it work, and if someone wants to do it to their gun, go ahead. As for my own, I’m not going to risk messing up the cylinder, nor do I want to be in a position where I must use somebody’s moonclips when I want to shoot the cartridge the gun was made to shoot without them.
I realize that the moonclip modification is popular with some gamers, and within that environment I see nothing wrong with it – but I also notice that none of the revolver manufacturers have offered anything along this line. Taurus floated a trial balloon, with a .357 Magnum /.38 Special /9mm Para. set-up but it never saw the light of day.
Jim Watson
Member
"The proposed modification is to turn off some metal at the back of the cylinder to make room for the moon clips. Thereafter you must use moonclips with both cartridges because the .45 Colt can no longer headspace off of the rim."
I think they can leave enough of the rear face of the cylinder for the .45 Colt rims to control headspace. I know that is what is done on the .357 clip conversion, I have one such.
I don't know how well it works, I have seen only one enthusiastic internet post about the alteration (but none unfavorable) and would not chop up MY gun that way.
I would guess that absolute0 bought the gun on a whim and was surprised by the high price and low availability of .45 Colt vs .45 ACP and is trying to cheap out.
I think they can leave enough of the rear face of the cylinder for the .45 Colt rims to control headspace. I know that is what is done on the .357 clip conversion, I have one such.
I don't know how well it works, I have seen only one enthusiastic internet post about the alteration (but none unfavorable) and would not chop up MY gun that way.
I would guess that absolute0 bought the gun on a whim and was surprised by the high price and low availability of .45 Colt vs .45 ACP and is trying to cheap out.
usp_fan
Member
The moonclip.com conversion does leave material along the edge of the cylinder for the rimmed cartridge to headspace.
--usp_fan
--usp_fan
tipoc
Member
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2006
- Messages
- 3,563
One can convert a .45 Colt S&W revolver to .45 acp. The best and most practical way to do so is to buy a new cylinder, yoke and ejector rod and fit these to the gun. In that way you can have a gun with two cylinders. But the yoke and rod must be switched out as a unit.
It's fairly easy to rechamber a gun from .455 to .45 Colt. Not so easy to go from .45 acp to .45 Colt and not at all easy to go from .45 Colt to .45 acp. It ain't cheap either.
This question is brought up often at the S&W forum (where the experts on this question tend to reside). The general concensus being "Why bother?" as it is cheaper and surer to simply buy the gun in the caliber you want.
First off. The problem of different headspacing has been noted already. Second as the .45 Colt has a greater case length the cylinder is bored deeper to allow for this. This simply becomes empty space into which the .45 acp round will fall unless it has a moonclip. And no it is not like fireing a .38spl. round in the .357. The size of .45 Colt ammo varies much more from manufacturer to manufacturer than many other rounds. The size of the Cylinder throats is also different, or should be, for best accuracy. Firing .45 acp out a cylinder intended for .45 Colt often has poor results accuracy wise, I know this from experience.
The Ruger SBH has a switch cylinder. The only guns which I have seen work in both calibers have switch cylinders.
If you do not want a piece in .45 Colt sell it they are sought after guns and will sell easily and buy the one you want. They are readily available. Or offer someone a straight up trade. This will save you money and trouble.
tipoc
It's fairly easy to rechamber a gun from .455 to .45 Colt. Not so easy to go from .45 acp to .45 Colt and not at all easy to go from .45 Colt to .45 acp. It ain't cheap either.
This question is brought up often at the S&W forum (where the experts on this question tend to reside). The general concensus being "Why bother?" as it is cheaper and surer to simply buy the gun in the caliber you want.
First off. The problem of different headspacing has been noted already. Second as the .45 Colt has a greater case length the cylinder is bored deeper to allow for this. This simply becomes empty space into which the .45 acp round will fall unless it has a moonclip. And no it is not like fireing a .38spl. round in the .357. The size of .45 Colt ammo varies much more from manufacturer to manufacturer than many other rounds. The size of the Cylinder throats is also different, or should be, for best accuracy. Firing .45 acp out a cylinder intended for .45 Colt often has poor results accuracy wise, I know this from experience.
The Ruger SBH has a switch cylinder. The only guns which I have seen work in both calibers have switch cylinders.
If you do not want a piece in .45 Colt sell it they are sought after guns and will sell easily and buy the one you want. They are readily available. Or offer someone a straight up trade. This will save you money and trouble.
tipoc
absolute0
Member
Yow! Looks like I kind of stirred up a hornets nest here 
I've not yet bought a model 25, but I am looking. I'm actually well fairly well accquainted with the 45 Colt cartridge from owning my Blackhawk convertable.
You guys are probably right, carving up a nice old Smith to shoot both cartridges probably just isn't worth the trouble or expense!
I've not yet bought a model 25, but I am looking. I'm actually well fairly well accquainted with the 45 Colt cartridge from owning my Blackhawk convertable.
You guys are probably right, carving up a nice old Smith to shoot both cartridges probably just isn't worth the trouble or expense!
I don't know if this is the same but, I have a Ruger Super Redhawk 454 Casull that was converted to accept moon clips. It shot, 454 Casull, 45 Colts, 45 Win mags with moon clips and 45 ACP with moon clips. Jack Huntington did the work.
- Status
