More developments with groom shooting story

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razorburn

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More details and some clarifications have come forth on the shooting about department policy and the sequence of events.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061127/ap_on_re_us/police_shooting

NEW YORK - An angry crowd demanded Sunday to know why police officers killed an unarmed man on the day of his wedding, firing dozens of shots that also wounded two of the man's friends. Some called for the ouster of the city's police commissioner.



At a vigil and rally the day after 23-year-old Sean Bell was supposed to have married the mother of his two young children, a crowd led by the Rev. Al Sharpton shouted "No justice, no peace."

At one point, the crowd of a few hundred counted off to 50, the number of rounds fired.

"We cannot allow this to continue to happen," Sharpton said at the gathering outside Mary Immaculate Hospital, where one of the wounded men was in critical condition. "We've got to understand that all of us were in that car."

Some in the crowd called for the ouster of Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly, yelling "Kelly must go."

The police officers' group 100 Blacks in Law Enforcement Who Care said it was issuing a vote of no confidence in Kelly over the shooting.

Paul Browne, chief spokesman for the NYPD, said Sunday: "We are continuing to look for additional witnesses to shed light on the incident, and assisting the district attorney's office with its investigation."

The five officers were placed on paid administrative leave pending the investigation, Browne said.

Community leaders planned a rally Dec. 6 at police headquarters.

Mayor Michael Bloomberg and his aides were in contact with Bell's family and community leaders throughout the weekend. Bloomberg and Kelly also planned to meet Monday with community leaders at City Hall.

The shootings occurred at about 4 a.m. Saturday outside the Kalua Cabaret, a strip club where Bell's bachelor party was held. The survivors were Joseph Guzman, 31, who was shot at least 11 times, and Trent Benefield, 23, who was hit three times. Guzman was in critical condition Sunday and Benefield was stable.

Relatives of all three men — many of them stoic, and some crying — attended Sunday's vigil but none spoke publicly.

At a news conference Saturday, Kelly said the department was still piecing together what happened, and that it was too early to say whether the shooting was justified.

The car, driven by Bell, was struck by 21 of the police bullets after the vehicle rammed an undercover officer and hit an unmarked NYPD minivan. Other shots hit nearby homes and shattered windows at a train station, though no one else was injured.

Police thought one of the men in the car might have had a gun but investigators found no weapons. It was unclear what prompted police to open fire, Kelly said.

It was also not clear whether the shooters had identified themselves as police, Kelly said.

Kelly said the confrontation stemmed from an undercover operation inside the strip club in the Jamaica section of Queens. Seven officers in plain clothes were investigating the Kalua Cabaret; five of them were involved in the shooting.

According to Kelly, the groom was involved in a verbal dispute outside the club and one of his friends made a reference to a gun.

An undercover officer walked closely behind Bell and his friends as they headed for their car. As he walked toward the front of the vehicle, the car drove forward — striking the officer and a nearby undercover police vehicle, Kelly said.

The officer who had followed the group on foot was apparently the first to open fire, Kelly said. That officer had served on the force for five years. One 12-year veteran fired his weapon 31 times, emptying two full magazines, Kelly said.

Bell backed the car onto a sidewalk, hitting a building gate, authorities said. He then drove forward, striking the police vehicle a second time, Kelly said.


The police department's policy on shooting at moving vehicles states: "Police officers shall not discharge their firearms at or from a moving vehicle unless deadly force is being used against the police officers or another person present, by means other than a moving vehicle."
In 1999, NYPD officers killed Amadou Diallo, an unarmed West African immigrant who was shot 19 times in the entry to his apartment building. The four officers in that case were acquitted of criminal charges. In 2003, Ousmane Zongo, 43, a native of the western African country of Burkina Faso, was killed during a police raid on a warehouse where he repaired art and musical instruments. Zongo was shot four times, twice in the back.

So the sequence of events has been clarified. The plainsclothes officer was following the group closely. The car they were driving moved foward and hit him and the undercover van as he was moving towards the front of the car. This is when the shooting occured. It was after the shooting started that the groom and his friends backed up and had a second collision with the van. The departments policy has also come out and looks to expressly forbid discharging firearms in this exact situation. Furthermore, another officer group has come out condemning the shooting and are making a vote of no confidence in police commissioner Kelly as a result of it.
 
Rev [self apointed] Al has always been a racist and uses every opportunity to stir up racial tensions and get his face on the tv....The club was known for it's drugs, prostitution and weapons ! That's why the cops were undercover there....Same old , same old !
 
was supposed to have married the mother of his two young children

Terribly un-PC of me of course but that statement makes me either want to puke or laugh, not sure which.

Back to the factless debate currently in progress.....
 
Considering that 2 out of 5 children are now born out of wedlock, you're going to be doing a lot of puking if you get that upset over stuff like that.

Just because it happens a lot doesn't make it right.

I just think it's funny in a twisted way.

After that much "activity" with the wife to be, the need for the strip club antics kinda strikes me as funny.


Back to the topic at hand, I'm wondering why the news article included this, why exactly is this relevant in any way?

In 1999, NYPD officers killed Amadou Diallo, an unarmed West African immigrant who was shot 19 times in the entry to his apartment building. The four officers in that case were acquitted of criminal charges. In 2003, Ousmane Zongo, 43, a native of the western African country of Burkina Faso, was killed during a police raid on a warehouse where he repaired art and musical instruments. Zongo was shot four times, twice in the back.
 
Rev [self apointed] Al has always been a racist and uses every opportunity to stir up racial tensions and get his face on the tv....The club was known for it's drugs, prostitution and weapons ! That's why the cops were undercover there....Same old , same old !

that is a GROSS over-simplification of this situation. al sharpton might be a perpetual opportunist and egoist, but his involvement in this is irrelevant. i don't even care if the police had good reson to be there. that fact also has nothing to do with whether or not their response to these men was appropriate. by your logic, we should dismiss any questionable behaviour by law enforcement that occurs in areas or establishments with bad reputations.
 
IBTL? I swear, each time I think I'm caught up on these internet/message board acronyms, I'm always proven wrong.
 
In Before The Lock...You know the mods are going to lock this one like the rest.
 

In Before The Lock

Usually used when a lock is imminent and a poster wants to jack their post count by posting useless information. No offense to those doing it, usually it's done in jest here on THR so funny on rare occasions.

On some boards however there are folks with thousands of posts of nothing more than +1s and IBTLs.

Luckily it's not tolerated here.
 
One 12-year veteran fired his weapon 31 times, emptying two full magazines

Is that likely? I know it's off-topic, but at least it's not controversial.

They let them put one in the pipe and then fill the mag up? In my little part of the USA that isn't the case. They load one mag of 15, rack the slide and that is it. Two extra mags of 15. 30 rounds would be fired with one magazine change, not 31.
 
16 + 15.

Consider this: A duty officer who doesn't think he has to use his weapon that day always loads his weapon with a full magazine and one in the pipe in the event he really has to. So 16 total. His reloads are all 15 round mags. So if he unloads his gun completely that day, reloads, and empties that, then it's 31 rounds.

Then there's the case of if he had 17 or 18 round magazines and only fired part of the second magazine.
 
One 12-year veteran fired his weapon 31 times
Is that likely? I know it's off-topic, but at least it's not controversial.

They let them put one in the pipe and then fill the mag up? In my little part of the USA that isn't the case. They load one mag of 15, rack the slide and that is it. Two extra mags of 15. 30 rounds would be fired with one magazine change, not 31.
Somehow, 30 or 31 doesn't strike me as being particularly significant. This one officer fired about as many shots as a complete 4-man TEAM fired at Diallo. I don't know what kind of trigger discipline they train to in NYC, but this seems excessive.

Yes, I did say "seems" -- I recognize that I wasn't there, and that once deadly force becomes justified the goal is to stop the threat. I just have to wonder if it really took shooting two magazines to slide lock to neutralize the "threat" posed by a trio of unarmed drunks (an assumption on my part -- this WAS a stag, after all) in a car that almost certainly had stopped before he ran out of ammo.
 
Come on guys, all the whiners about these threads always being locked. Some of the facts we were unclear on earlier have become solidified, the sequence of events is now known, other groups of officers have weighed in, and department policy has been released. We now have our opportunity to discuss this as you've been clamoring to. Don't blow it...try to keep it OT and mature.
 
Seems like a double quadruple tap if you ask me, but if you figure 4 officers unloaded their magazines each assuming they have 15 round mags its very possible for 50 -60 rounds to be fired. Very easily, but 15 rounds is still a lot but in the heat of the moment probably dont even think about it.
 
Sharpton sure doesn't win any credibility prizes, but even a stopped watch is right 2x per day. He might actually be right this time, especially if shooting a movig vehicle is against departmental policy. If I were the family I'd slap a gag order on him though, and just hire a decent attorney.
 
Rev [self apointed] Al has always been a racist and uses every opportunity to stir up racial tensions and get his face on the tv....The club was known for it's drugs, prostitution and weapons ! That's why the cops were undercover there....Same old , same old !

How does that justify the shooting though?
Also.. what does Al Sharpton's involvement have to do with whether or not it was a good shoot?
I love how everyone throws out a bunch of red herrings here..
 
I'll give the cops the benefit of the doubt for now. A car can be a deadly weapon.

I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt as well, and if it were me, as a non-LEO I'd absolutely shoot in that situation.

However, their own regulations have been quoted by most of the news sources as saying it was against policy, so they are still in error for that.

Notice that the officers claim to have seen a weapon. If that were the case they they were not shooting at a car, but at someone with a gun.

Since no gun was found there will be trouble but I don't think they were shooting because a car hit another car, they claim to have thought there was a gun on one of the guys. I'm afraid that will make it very bad for the officers.
 
If the police were right, or at least had sufficient reasons to believe they were right, one would think that they would at least "allude" to the fact that they think they were in the right before this whole thing is allowed to blow up in their face on so-called baseless asumptions.

Instead.

Paul Browne, chief spokesman for the NYPD, said Sunday: "We are continuing to look for additional witnesses to shed light on the incident, and assisting the district attorney's office with its investigation."

Doesn't seem like they are at all confident that they will end up in the right... especially considering that this is two days later. Or else they do not trust their officers.

A better, more confident statement would be.

"Paul, Brown, chief spokesman for the NYPD, said Sunday "We are confident that our officers followed established policies and procedures, and we are confident that the outcome will reflect this. We will fully cooperate with the DA to ensure a quick conclusion to this unfortunate event".

I'm not buying it. The "blue-line" always come out fast when they are just taking the time to cover the bases and dot the "i's". This was a cluster. IMHO. Based on reading the news for a few decades.
 
Seems like a double quadruple tap if you ask me, but if you figure 4 officers unloaded their magazines each assuming they have 15 round mags its very possible for 50 -60 rounds to be fired. Very easily, but 15 rounds is still a lot but in the heat of the moment probably dont even think about it.

Hmmmm..... Well, there were fifty rounds fired. One officer (out of five) fired thirty-one of those rounds. That means the other four officers fired nineteen between them.
 
I don't mean to sound crass but...

Even if the vehicle and its occupants were a legitimate target.I can't help but wonder why the officer who reloaded his weapon didn't take a moment to reasess the situation before emptying a 2nd magazine. This incident had MANY stray rounds with no incoming fire directed at officers. If those strays were fired by the officer who was struck by the vehicle, then that might be an acceptable explanation. However, the facts of the situation don't seem to warrant the other officers turning the street into a shooting gallery.

The officer who had followed the group on foot was apparently the first to open fire, Kelly said. That officer had served on the force for five years. One 12-year veteran fired his weapon 31 times, emptying two full magazines, Kelly said.

The facts reported so far demand scrutiny, as this definetly appears to be borderline at best, if it is a justified shooting, and a multiple homicide if it is not.

The lineage of the man's children and the disappearing stigma that used to be associated with being a bastard are definitely not topical.

Although it is an interesting topic....a non-firearm RTKBA related one.

Please let's keep the discussion civil and related to the facts. I would hope that this thread would stay open and contain something a little deeper than, "cops are all scum", or "cops can do no wrong".
Anyone with more than two brain cells knows that these types of blanket statements are worthless and accomplish little more than inciting tempers and locking threads.
 
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