No, one of the officers claimed to have heard one of them say something about a "gun". Nobody says they saw any weapon. Also, it was a single low speed collision that triggered the shooting. They were hit again only after they had started firing.
More developments with groom shooting story
- Thread starter razorburn
- Start date
- Status
No, one of the officers claimed to have heard one of them say something about a "gun". Nobody says they saw any weapon. Also, it was a single low speed collision that triggered the shooting. They were hit again only after they had started firing.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
One of the factors in the Diallo case was that rounds were ricocheting off the brick facing of the building. This combined with one of the officers in the Diallo shooting tripping and falling caused the others to believe they were under fire.
You get four different officers shooting at sloped safety glass from different angles and you could easily have rounds zipping past in a way that might seem a lot like incoming fire. Add in the confusion from a moving car, time (4am), and it might not be obvious to some of the officers.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
I stand corrected, I re-read the articles and I must have misread them yesterday.
Thanks.
lurkersince03
Member
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2006
- Messages
- 176
Roberts is correct. 
I don't think that'll be enough to argue to the victims of the fallen, or even to IID. While I generally remain somewhat apathetic to this incident, I do have to question the after-the-fact handling of it. Some things just didn't make sense to me, in terms of damage control.
I don't think that'll be enough to argue to the victims of the fallen, or even to IID. While I generally remain somewhat apathetic to this incident, I do have to question the after-the-fact handling of it. Some things just didn't make sense to me, in terms of damage control.But what are the regulations and policies? Surely officers aren't permitted to return fire on a vehicle full of occupants based solely on the fact that they are hearing or 'feeling' return fire. I would think that if two magazine changes and 31 rounds were fired that the officer would have at least had a "target"... or else he was just... shooting?
Can any officer realistically fire 31 times and NOT have a target? By your argument, hearing shots appearing to come at you, and seeing fellow officers trip and fall justify unloading 31 shots at a car full of people. I'm not buying it. Cops don't... or shouldn't just fire without aiming. Kinda takes the "public" out of "public service".
Do they teach this method of response at the academy or in any of the classes offered by ANY police agency? Just blaze away once fired upon? Especially since it's a known area that the public congregates? If that is departmental policy, we need to be outraged over that, as well. What if it happened by a school? What if a perp fired from a school bus at the cops? Just shoot until it's over? Again, I'm not buying it. That is not a defense.
Mad Chemist
Member
BR, I think you may be correct.
It's also possible that the officer who was struck by the vehicle cracked under pain and stress and initiated a cascade that was followed by the other officers. When one guy is using his G19 like a bullet-hose it's easy to understand how the other guys could have been unsure where the rounds were coming from.
Of course this is all still conjecture at this point.
It's also possible that the officer who was struck by the vehicle cracked under pain and stress and initiated a cascade that was followed by the other officers. When one guy is using his G19 like a bullet-hose it's easy to understand how the other guys could have been unsure where the rounds were coming from.
Of course this is all still conjecture at this point.
lurkersince03
Member
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2006
- Messages
- 176
We could argue about "shoot until the threat stops," and then argue about just what does it mean for the threat to stop (e.g. the guys in the car could've waved an arm or two out the window for them to stop shooting, or ducked around and moved about in the car, and the police thought that the threat wasn't down, yet).
But my concern is with the length of time it took for these facts to come out, and the PD and the politicians to get involved. Sensitive issue, I know, with conflicting stories from the officers abound. Perhaps each major city police department should have an official Damage Control Department that doesn't put all of the investigatory weight on the IID.
But my concern is with the length of time it took for these facts to come out, and the PD and the politicians to get involved. Sensitive issue, I know, with conflicting stories from the officers abound. Perhaps each major city police department should have an official Damage Control Department that doesn't put all of the investigatory weight on the IID.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
FTF said:
No, that isn't my argument. I was simply pointing out that it isn't always very clear who is shooting at whom when four people are all firing at once at a large steel target with sloped safety glass.
As for unloading 31 shots from one officer, even at a nice leisurely pace of 1 shot per second, that means a total of 31 seconds from the time the officer perceived the threat to the time he stopped shooting.
I can think up scenarios where this shooting is justified based on the few facts we know and I can think up scenarios where it is not. A lot depends on facts that we still don't know.
pcosmar
member
There are many things about this that I have questions about, and it has been a while since I have been able to shoot. But arent you supposed to have and be able to identify your target. and what about knowing what is past your target, the backround, where your bullits go. It has been a while, I could be mistaken.
Given the fact that is the department policy concerning deadly force states that firearms shall not be discharged unlesss deadly force is being used against the police and cannot include that of a moving vehicle... and that the car was full of people and moving, no firearms were found in the car and that the moving car cannot be used as a predicate for deadly force. These are all FACTS unless this department policy and the statement of the police chief himself can be deemed incorrect.
What is your scenario justifying deadly force given these facts? The police heard shots and 'assumed' they came from this car?
lurkersince03
Member
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2006
- Messages
- 176
pcosmar, you generally are. But sometimes things happen so fast that you don't have time to analyze, you only have time to react. Now I'm not sure what happened here, but it could be that they underanalyzed, overanalyzed, or didn't analyze and reacted. Given the lack of factual details to what led up to the shooting, we can only assume it's a possibility.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Justified doesn't necessarily mean in accordance with department policy. Note that the policy you cited would mean that even if the driver intentionally struck the first officer with homicidal intent, the officers would still be prohibited from responding with deadly force.
You also assume that all four officers know all the facts we do. I can easily imagine a scenario where those facts aren't so clear. Let's look at what we do know... 4am, a car moving back and forth striking other vehicles and one officer. All of a sudden you hear shooting, maybe ricochets zipping past. Depending on the angle, the muzzle flash might even appear to be coming from the car. It is possible that none of the other three officers realized one of their own had started shooting - and once all four are firing in that environment, I would bet that the whole situation was very confused.
Of course that is totally idle speculation on my part. It might have happened some other way where the shooting is totally unjustifiable.
On a related note, the news feed of the incident just popped up. That car must have been thrashing about pretty good. Serious dent to the driver's side behind the door, the rear bumper. Both driver's side windows and rear window missing.
cassandrasdaddy
Member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2006
- Messages
- 4,206
like
to see where everyone was standing before i stick my foot in my mouth . we had a shooting once in fait=rfax where a guy jumped out with an empty shotgun while surrounded by 9 cops with drawn weapons.(god told him to) they unloaded on him and almost shot each other.I remember an ateraction analysis of the sla shootout that concluded that there were rounds going through and through the house making cops on one sides shots seem to be fire from the sla to cops on the other side.
to see where everyone was standing before i stick my foot in my mouth . we had a shooting once in fait=rfax where a guy jumped out with an empty shotgun while surrounded by 9 cops with drawn weapons.(god told him to) they unloaded on him and almost shot each other.I remember an ateraction analysis of the sla shootout that concluded that there were rounds going through and through the house making cops on one sides shots seem to be fire from the sla to cops on the other side.
NYPost article
GROOM DIES IN NYPD BARRAGE
* 50 SHOTS FIRED AT QNS. PARTIERS
By GEORGETT ROBERTS, MURRAY WEISS and ERIC LENKOWITZ
GRIM AFTERMATH: One of two wounded survivors screams in agony on the sidewalk as the slain groom is taken away yesterday after the shooting near the Kalua strip club in Jamaica. All three victims were apparently unarmed - and a relative lashed out at "hotheaded" cops.
November 26, 2006 -- A Queens bachelor party turned into a bloodbath early yesterday when five cops opened fire on a car with 50 shots - killing the groom-to-be, wounding his two friends and leaving furious relatives demanding answers from the NYPD.
The 4 a.m. shooting in Jamaica happened just after the trio had left a strip club called the Kalua Restaurant and Lounge, where Sean Bell, 23, celebrated his last night as a single man, police said.
Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said an undercover officer, part of a seven-cop unit conducting surveillance on the troubled nightspot, followed the men from Kalua after overhearing a fight in which Bell had said, "Let's f- him up."
Kelly said the undercover cop then heard Bell's pal Joseph Guzman shout, "Yo, go get my gun!"
Moments later, a second undercover cop confronted the three men as they got into their Nissan Altima on Liverpool Street. The Altima pulled forward and hit the cop, then continued and crashed into an unmarked police minivan that had just turned the corner from 94th Avenue.
The Altima then backed up, jumped the curb, hit the rolled-down gate of a building, went forward and clipped the minivan a second time.
Kelly said the undercover cop hit by the van, just prior to his run-in with the trio, had yelled, "It's getting hot on Liverpool! For real, I think there's a gun!"
That detective squeezed off the first shot, Kelly said, and four other cops began firing what became dozens of rounds into the Nissan, bullets flying in all directions.
Kelly said a total of 50 shots were fired - including 31 by one detective.
A police source said the undercover cop had identified himself before he was hit by the car.
"I saw two cars facing each other. I saw the [detective] jump out and start shooting," said Daniel Rafael, 23, who had been on his way home from a party. "I saw them fire about six or seven shots. That's when I ran inside."
Bell, whose wedding to Nicole Paultre, his longtime girlfriend and the mother of his two daughters, had been scheduled for 5 p.m. yesterday, was shot in the neck and arm. He was pronounced dead shortly after the shooting.
Guzman, 31, was shot in the foot and neck, Kelly said.
The third friend, Trent Benefield, 23, suffered 17 wounds, though it was unclear how many were from bullets.
Police sources said there may have been a fourth man who ran from the Altima before the shooting started.
One detective on the scene shook his head as he told The Post that the shooting was "a major screw-up."
Another cop later said, "It could be like the guy with the wallet" - referring to unarmed Bronx man Amadou Diallo, who in 1999 was hit by 19 of 41 bullets fired by cops as he grabbed for his wallet.
Mayor Bloomberg said in a statement: "Although it is too early to draw conclusions . . . we know that the NYPD officers on the scene had reason to believe that an altercation involving a firearm was about to happen and [that they] were trying to stop it."
Police sources said detectives from a Manhattan South vice squad were at Kalua, a known prostitution and drug den, conducting surveillance as part of a citywide crackdown on club crime.
They had been targeting prostitution, but their attention was diverted when two undercover cops inside the club noticed a bouncer signaling to a dancer that he had a gun and telling her that he could take care of any problems for her.
Cops radioed detectives in the unmarked van about the gun. That's when Bell, Guzman and Benefield were overheard getting into a fight.
Kelly said that the shooting was now the subject of a grand-jury investigation and that he could not say whether it was justified.
"Let me assure everyone that this will be a full, fair and complete investigation," Queens DA Richard Brown said.
Kelly said the cops involved ranged in experience from five to 17 years. The detective who fired 31 times has been on the force 12 years.
The standard-issue police pistol holds 16 rounds. There were at least 45 evidence markers, normally used to document the location of shell casings, on the ground.
Sources said the three victims - none of whom was charged with any crime - each had a rap sheet with multiple arrests and at least one gun-related charge.
Cops were searching last night for evidence in their vehicle, including a secret compartment where a gun could be stored, sources said.
A doctor said Guzman and Benefield were in stable condition at Mary Immaculate Hospital - where relatives and the Rev. Al Sharpton demanded an explanation for what they insisted was an unjustified shooting.
"There's no way in anyone's mind that we can see how 50 shots had to be fired," Sharpton said. "For this kind of shooting to happen based on their story is absolutely unthinkable."
Bell was black, as are Guzman and Benefield. Two of the five cops involved in the shooting are white, two are black, and the other is Hispanic.
Among unanswered questions are:
* Why did Guzman spend half of yesterday handcuffed to his hospital bed?
* And why was Benefield shackled hand and foot to his?
Relatives said the two were initially placed under arrest, but the cuffs were removed after press inquiries.
Club photographer Roy Brown said the three friends were having a quiet, well-behaved evening at Kalua. He said they didn't have any drinks and were just enjoying the entertainment, at one point posing for pictures.
"They were just in there like the other guys, watching the girls, all having fun," he said. "None of them seemed drunk to me. They were just regular guys."
The men left the club just before the 4 a.m. closing time and had planned to go to a diner with a stripper named Trini, Brown said.
"They were celebrating. The guy was getting married," said Benefield's mom, Denise Ford. "They left the club. They made a mistake and ran into a [detective's] car."
Ford said the shooting left her son "angry, very angry."
She also said the cops were too "hotheaded."
"Something needs to be done about them," she said. "They do things and get away with it. It's not right or fair to us. Something needs to be done, and I'm going to start."
One bullet struck an AirTrain elevated platform above 94th Avenue, shattering a window and spraying glass on two Port Authority cops. None of the six people on the platform was hurt, but service was shut down for seven hours.
As of last night, cops had not yet recovered a gun from the Altima.
Benefield's pregnant fiancée, Nyla Paige, 18, didn't expect them to find anything.
"If you ask me, it's an outrage," she said - "innocent people in a car getting shot for no reason."
Residents on Liverpool Street said they were startled as bullets went through windows, into cars and even hit a lamp in one man's living room.
"I heard several shots one after the other - pow-pow-pow," said a college student named Sadé. "I thought it was a dream, but then I heard, like, sirens and helicopters and ambulances.
"The cops had a guy in handcuffs on the ground. He was shot in the legs," she said. "Somebody was wiping his leg. There was a lot of blood around. They picked him up by the shoulders, and he was screaming, 'My legs! My legs!' "
GROOM DIES IN NYPD BARRAGE
* 50 SHOTS FIRED AT QNS. PARTIERS
By GEORGETT ROBERTS, MURRAY WEISS and ERIC LENKOWITZ
GRIM AFTERMATH: One of two wounded survivors screams in agony on the sidewalk as the slain groom is taken away yesterday after the shooting near the Kalua strip club in Jamaica. All three victims were apparently unarmed - and a relative lashed out at "hotheaded" cops.
November 26, 2006 -- A Queens bachelor party turned into a bloodbath early yesterday when five cops opened fire on a car with 50 shots - killing the groom-to-be, wounding his two friends and leaving furious relatives demanding answers from the NYPD.
The 4 a.m. shooting in Jamaica happened just after the trio had left a strip club called the Kalua Restaurant and Lounge, where Sean Bell, 23, celebrated his last night as a single man, police said.
Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said an undercover officer, part of a seven-cop unit conducting surveillance on the troubled nightspot, followed the men from Kalua after overhearing a fight in which Bell had said, "Let's f- him up."
Kelly said the undercover cop then heard Bell's pal Joseph Guzman shout, "Yo, go get my gun!"
Moments later, a second undercover cop confronted the three men as they got into their Nissan Altima on Liverpool Street. The Altima pulled forward and hit the cop, then continued and crashed into an unmarked police minivan that had just turned the corner from 94th Avenue.
The Altima then backed up, jumped the curb, hit the rolled-down gate of a building, went forward and clipped the minivan a second time.
Kelly said the undercover cop hit by the van, just prior to his run-in with the trio, had yelled, "It's getting hot on Liverpool! For real, I think there's a gun!"
That detective squeezed off the first shot, Kelly said, and four other cops began firing what became dozens of rounds into the Nissan, bullets flying in all directions.
Kelly said a total of 50 shots were fired - including 31 by one detective.
A police source said the undercover cop had identified himself before he was hit by the car.
"I saw two cars facing each other. I saw the [detective] jump out and start shooting," said Daniel Rafael, 23, who had been on his way home from a party. "I saw them fire about six or seven shots. That's when I ran inside."
Bell, whose wedding to Nicole Paultre, his longtime girlfriend and the mother of his two daughters, had been scheduled for 5 p.m. yesterday, was shot in the neck and arm. He was pronounced dead shortly after the shooting.
Guzman, 31, was shot in the foot and neck, Kelly said.
The third friend, Trent Benefield, 23, suffered 17 wounds, though it was unclear how many were from bullets.
Police sources said there may have been a fourth man who ran from the Altima before the shooting started.
One detective on the scene shook his head as he told The Post that the shooting was "a major screw-up."
Another cop later said, "It could be like the guy with the wallet" - referring to unarmed Bronx man Amadou Diallo, who in 1999 was hit by 19 of 41 bullets fired by cops as he grabbed for his wallet.
Mayor Bloomberg said in a statement: "Although it is too early to draw conclusions . . . we know that the NYPD officers on the scene had reason to believe that an altercation involving a firearm was about to happen and [that they] were trying to stop it."
Police sources said detectives from a Manhattan South vice squad were at Kalua, a known prostitution and drug den, conducting surveillance as part of a citywide crackdown on club crime.
They had been targeting prostitution, but their attention was diverted when two undercover cops inside the club noticed a bouncer signaling to a dancer that he had a gun and telling her that he could take care of any problems for her.
Cops radioed detectives in the unmarked van about the gun. That's when Bell, Guzman and Benefield were overheard getting into a fight.
Kelly said that the shooting was now the subject of a grand-jury investigation and that he could not say whether it was justified.
"Let me assure everyone that this will be a full, fair and complete investigation," Queens DA Richard Brown said.
Kelly said the cops involved ranged in experience from five to 17 years. The detective who fired 31 times has been on the force 12 years.
The standard-issue police pistol holds 16 rounds. There were at least 45 evidence markers, normally used to document the location of shell casings, on the ground.
Sources said the three victims - none of whom was charged with any crime - each had a rap sheet with multiple arrests and at least one gun-related charge.
Cops were searching last night for evidence in their vehicle, including a secret compartment where a gun could be stored, sources said.
A doctor said Guzman and Benefield were in stable condition at Mary Immaculate Hospital - where relatives and the Rev. Al Sharpton demanded an explanation for what they insisted was an unjustified shooting.
"There's no way in anyone's mind that we can see how 50 shots had to be fired," Sharpton said. "For this kind of shooting to happen based on their story is absolutely unthinkable."
Bell was black, as are Guzman and Benefield. Two of the five cops involved in the shooting are white, two are black, and the other is Hispanic.
Among unanswered questions are:
* Why did Guzman spend half of yesterday handcuffed to his hospital bed?
* And why was Benefield shackled hand and foot to his?
Relatives said the two were initially placed under arrest, but the cuffs were removed after press inquiries.
Club photographer Roy Brown said the three friends were having a quiet, well-behaved evening at Kalua. He said they didn't have any drinks and were just enjoying the entertainment, at one point posing for pictures.
"They were just in there like the other guys, watching the girls, all having fun," he said. "None of them seemed drunk to me. They were just regular guys."
The men left the club just before the 4 a.m. closing time and had planned to go to a diner with a stripper named Trini, Brown said.
"They were celebrating. The guy was getting married," said Benefield's mom, Denise Ford. "They left the club. They made a mistake and ran into a [detective's] car."
Ford said the shooting left her son "angry, very angry."
She also said the cops were too "hotheaded."
"Something needs to be done about them," she said. "They do things and get away with it. It's not right or fair to us. Something needs to be done, and I'm going to start."
One bullet struck an AirTrain elevated platform above 94th Avenue, shattering a window and spraying glass on two Port Authority cops. None of the six people on the platform was hurt, but service was shut down for seven hours.
As of last night, cops had not yet recovered a gun from the Altima.
Benefield's pregnant fiancée, Nyla Paige, 18, didn't expect them to find anything.
"If you ask me, it's an outrage," she said - "innocent people in a car getting shot for no reason."
Residents on Liverpool Street said they were startled as bullets went through windows, into cars and even hit a lamp in one man's living room.
"I heard several shots one after the other - pow-pow-pow," said a college student named Sadé. "I thought it was a dream, but then I heard, like, sirens and helicopters and ambulances.
"The cops had a guy in handcuffs on the ground. He was shot in the legs," she said. "Somebody was wiping his leg. There was a lot of blood around. They picked him up by the shoulders, and he was screaming, 'My legs! My legs!' "
bogie
Member
Okay... Lemme play the Devil's advocate ...
You're at a club with your buds... You're the designated driver. They're toasted (bachelor party - doh...), and someone gets moderately stupid. You say "Hey, let's get outta here before someone gets shot."
You get in the car, and someone's on foot following you. There's a suspicious vehicle. How many times have we heard that a car is as good as a firearm in an altercation?
Essentially, this strikes me as a no-knock, without the idea of the knock (or the warrant, for that matter...), gone wrong...
Sorry, police officers, but y'all ain't always right. THINK before you do something. It might come back and bite you.
You're at a club with your buds... You're the designated driver. They're toasted (bachelor party - doh...), and someone gets moderately stupid. You say "Hey, let's get outta here before someone gets shot."
You get in the car, and someone's on foot following you. There's a suspicious vehicle. How many times have we heard that a car is as good as a firearm in an altercation?
Essentially, this strikes me as a no-knock, without the idea of the knock (or the warrant, for that matter...), gone wrong...
Sorry, police officers, but y'all ain't always right. THINK before you do something. It might come back and bite you.
Last edited by a moderator:
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Except that if we believe the reporting in the NY Post story, the undercover officer identified himself to the men prior to being struck and they could not have seen the car they struck since it wasn't struck until it drove around the corner as they were driving away.
Sharps-shooter
Member
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2006
- Messages
- 488
too much coffee
Sounds like somebody had too much coffee. When someone hits me/my vehicle, I usually get out and ask if they're okay, and exchange insurance information with them. I find that this makes for much less of a complicated situation than shooting them 50 times on their wedding day. Of course, your results may vary.
You know the groom is up there right now commisserating with the 92-year old woman from Atlanta.
Sounds like somebody had too much coffee. When someone hits me/my vehicle, I usually get out and ask if they're okay, and exchange insurance information with them. I find that this makes for much less of a complicated situation than shooting them 50 times on their wedding day. Of course, your results may vary.
You know the groom is up there right now commisserating with the 92-year old woman from Atlanta.
lurkersince03
Member
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2006
- Messages
- 176
LOL bogie... that last thing made me laugh out loud in the most obnoxious way.
It looks like they're pretty much succumbing to the notion that this could very well be the police's fault. A very interesting turn of events.
It looks like they're pretty much succumbing to the notion that this could very well be the police's fault. A very interesting turn of events.
bogie
Member
Okay...
You and your bud's are slummin' it... In the bad part of town, getting the condemned a last shot of silicone before his date with destiny...
Some guy walks up to the window, sez he's a cop. Yeah, right - you outta that burg. Time to exit Dodge City. You floor it, and Barney's bro's are right there...
Time for Plan B... Try to go anywhere else... Do you really believe that fellow is a cop?
Sorry, but the wedding's off.
You and your bud's are slummin' it... In the bad part of town, getting the condemned a last shot of silicone before his date with destiny...
Some guy walks up to the window, sez he's a cop. Yeah, right - you outta that burg. Time to exit Dodge City. You floor it, and Barney's bro's are right there...
Time for Plan B... Try to go anywhere else... Do you really believe that fellow is a cop?
Sorry, but the wedding's off.
The article says the UC confronted them but does not say if he IDed himself as a cop. Otherwise it would have seemed to the groom and co. to be someone tailing them, wanting to start a fight.
My bad.. the police source sez he did ID himself. Although I don't think the men in the car would have believed him after what they had been through that night
Deanimator
Member
This seems like another flaky undercover operation like the one that got Patrick Dorismond killed.
Unmarked vehicles, guys in plainclothes, guns, possible failure to ID; it seems entirely possible to me that the actions of the police made them appear to be carjackers or worse.
If you try to carjack me, I'll run over you, ram your vehicle or whatever it takes to get away.
I think there's a real clue to what happened in the Dorismond case.
Autolycus
Member
Well only time will tell. I imagine that someone is going to have to pay. I just wonder if it will be a citizen or a cop.
Everyone seems to want to make assumptions Lets have a careful review of the situation when all the facts are in. But how can this happen when you have Sharpton ,now joined by Rev Doughtry [ex-con] who are taking full advantage of the situation to stir up racism ,demand removal of the chief etc.
dave_pro2a
Member
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2006
- Messages
- 447
Even jurys don't get "all the facts." Not having all the facts does not preclude discussion.
30 cal slob
Member
i'm simply amazed that two survived.
sixty rounds (albeit into a car?)
wow.
sixty rounds (albeit into a car?)
wow.
- Status
Similar threads
