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More M1 Garands !

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by ford8nr, Aug 10, 2017.

  1. RussellC

    RussellC Member

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    Thank you for that info. Very reasonable price for the organizations you provided.

    I hope I am able to get one as nice as yours!

    Russellc
     
  2. Bwana John

    Bwana John Member

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    While I am in full support of SI (metric), I believe the M1 Garand is NOT a 7.62x63 OR a 30-06....

    It is intended for the 30 cal M2 cartridge, which has a specific pressure curve requirement to operate the M1 as intended.

    The other cartridges, although the same in outside dimensions can be loaded with powders or bullet weights that do not meet that requirement, and may be detrimental to the rifle.
     
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  3. RussellC

    RussellC Member

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    I've never owned one so dont know, but it seems I do remember reading that the rounds it fires are different from "regular" 30 06. Can anyone here who owns one talk about the rounds the Grand shoots?

    Would be appreciated,

    Russellc
     
  4. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    150 grain bullet at 2700 fps, propelled by a relatively fast powder such as IMR 4895. Bullets that are significantly heavier or loads that use slow powders come with a risk of bending the operating rod or otherwise causing mechanical damage to the mechanism.
     
  5. RussellC

    RussellC Member

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    But the brass is same as other 30-06?

    Thanks again, I reload so was wondering about this.

    Russellc
     
  6. hps1

    hps1 Member

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    GI brass is heavier but same dimensions as civilian 30-06. I like the GI brass as it lasts a bit better than civ. '06.

    I was issued my first M1 in 1952. Proper name for the rifle is "U S Rifle, Cal. .30 M1". ;) Elkins is spot on regarding ammo. 47 gr. of 4895 behind a 150 gr. bullet pretty well duplicates US M2 ball and same charge behind 168 SMK is real close to US M72 Match ammo. As usual, start low and work up.

    Regards,
    hps
     
  7. ford8nr

    ford8nr Member

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    Not really. I have personally never known someone disappointed in what they received from the CMP. You do have to remember these guns are all over 60 years old.
    I got one of the HRA Greek returns several years back. Never did research heat treat codes, but all the parts are HRA Except the trigger guard which is Springfield which may be correct for the year. On initial tear down there was NO wear on any of the internal finishes and the bbl gauged in the new range. Was sold as a Service Grade, paid something like $625 for it
     
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  8. ford8nr

    ford8nr Member

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    Ammo has to do with the pressure curve in the barrel. You DON'T want the pressure spike at the gas port.
    If you want to run standard commercial ammo they make adjustable gas plugs.
    4895 powder works well, I run 165 gr bullets.
    For reliability in feeding a small base sizing die supposedly works best. That's what I run so don't know the difference.
     
  9. hps1

    hps1 Member

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    I was running our club's DCM (old CMP) in the late 80's to the mid 90's. At that time DCM required shooting in at least one approved competition plus membership in DCM affiliated club, pass background check and cost was around $95 IIRC.

    I saw lots of DCM M1's and, as ford8nr said, never heard of anyone not satisfied. We had one new shooter, that enclosed a note with his paperwork stating that he planned to use his in competition and would like a NM grade rifle. We all laughed at him........until he brought his nearly new NM rifle to a match to show everyone.:what:

    Regards,
    hps
     
  10. hps1

    hps1 Member

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    I have never used small base dies, BUT, always used ammo shot in either my M1 or a bolt gun (with pretty tight chamber). Where the small base dies come in is if you get hold of a batch of brass shot in machineguns as their chambers run rather sloppy tolerances.

    When reloading for Garand (or any semi auto rifle w/free floating firing pins) special care must be used to be sure cases are sufficiently sized to allow case to fully chamber. Anything which causes case to not be fully chambered can cause a slam-fire and if bolt is not in battery it can wreck a rifle and ruin your day. High primers are to be avoided and CCI #34 (mil spec) primers are a good safety measure, as well. The M1 firing pin pecks the primer of every round chambered so high primers, soft primers, dirty chambers, etc. are best avoided.

    Regards,
    hps
     
  11. cfullgraf

    cfullgraf Member

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    The Garand receiver is more than capable of handling standard 30-06 pressures. The problem is the operation rod (aka op rod) is the weak link in the system and is designed for a certain max pressure at the port. A normal op rod actually has bends in it which makes it less capable of handling excess loads.

    To get higher velocities, current 30-06 hunting ammunition uses powder with a slower burn rate than what was available when the Garand was developed and these modern powders generates higher port pressures in the Garand.

    There are a range of powders that have suitable burn rates for the Garand. IMR4895 and H4895 are about in the middle of the range. These, plus Varget work fine for me. IMR3031 is about the limit on the fast side and IMR4320 on the slow side but use this information with care.

    The port pressure with these powders are at a safe level for the Garands op rod.

    The McCann and Schuster devices relieve some of the port pressure and permit safe use of hunting ammunition in the Garand.

    There is also a recommended maximum bullet weight to shoot in the Garand. It is 180 grains. It seems this limit is a bit more gray than the powder limitations but 150 and 168 grain bullets work fine for me. Many load 125 grain bullets for short range target shooting, 100 to 200 yards or so, that provide a reduction in recoil and excellent accuracy.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
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  12. cfullgraf

    cfullgraf Member

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    I used standard resizing dies for my Garand for many years without any problems but I only used cases originally fired in my Garand or ones i new were fired in other Garands.

    I have had issues once chambering gun show cases with my M1A (308 Win) which I suspect were fired in a machine gun.

    But, 10 to 12 years ago after I had some sizing and chambering issues with a couple of my AR-15s, I decided to small base resize, if dies are available, all the cases used in my semi-auto rifles, including 30-06 and 308 Win. I have a 308 Win Garand and an M1A. It was just insurance against chambering problems.

    My recommendations for folks getting into semi-automatic rifles is...

    "If you already have dies, you are probably ok but just be careful and knowledgable of where your cases originate from. Once the cases are fired in your rifle, they will continue resize and shoot fine. If you do not have dies, buy a small base sizing die and and your golden."

    Finally, I have not found using small base sizing dies accelerate failure of the cases. My experience, the cases fail in other areas not related to where the die does the extra sizing or they prematurely pass into the Bermuda Triangle.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
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  13. NIGHTLORD40K

    NIGHTLORD40K Member

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    Garandgear.com actually installed a peizo sensor in the piston chamber of an M1 and tested dozens of different brands to see what the pressure at the port would be with and without a modified gas plug. The chart is pretty interesting- some commercial loads are about the same as M2 ball, but many are WAAAAAAYYY higher, but, ya, it seems to be more dependent on powder burn rate than bullet weight. Recommend you check out their site....sorry I'm old and stupid and don't know how to make a link.
     
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  14. hps1

    hps1 Member

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    Good advice. Better safe than sorry! Having shot HP competition for twenty three or four years of competitive, a large percentage shooting an M1, M14 or M1A, I have only witnessed two slamfires; one with an M1 and another was an M14. Here is a link in more detail and is an example of a slamfire caused by a case too big to chamber in rifle, but could just have easily been caused by a high primer, not fully seated.

    http://www.predatormastersforums.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=672573#Post672573

    A good practice when removing a loaded round from your press is to make a habit of running thumb over case head to assure fully seated primer, then run cases through a case heaspace gauge to be sure case is not oversized.

    While this video is not a slamfire, it does give you an idea of the destruction which can be caused by one. Looks to me like this lady had a failure to feed (or possibly failure to eject fired case), cleared stoppage and either the bolt was not in full battery, or the round was overloaded???
    The M1 is not supposed to fire out of battery, but if tail on firing pin or if the notch in the receiver bridge is broken or badly worn, the rifle could fire out of battery.



    Garands are great rifles, fun to shoot, but be aware and be safe.

    Regards,
    hps

    ETA: After watching the video again, I believe she was probably shooting handloads and the 6th round had no powder. Primer would have driven bullet into the rifling and the next round blew up. She was one very lucky lady!
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  15. hps1

    hps1 Member

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    Excellent data, NIGHTLORD40K, thanks! Here's your link:

    http://www.garandgear.com/m1-garand-ammunition

    Regards.
    hps
     
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  16. RussellC

    RussellC Member

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  17. RussellC

    RussellC Member

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    When on the site you wish to copy, move pointer up to the address bar, ( the part with the www.http//......and left click on it, causing it to be highlighted. Then right click and click copy.
    Move pointer to where you want to copy it, like in your message, right click and click paste.

    Russellc
     
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  18. 22250Rem

    22250Rem Member

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    Thanks for the link although my M-1 runs strictly on handloads it was very interesting and informative. Over the years I've pretty much gone to duplicating the standard 150 gr. GI load at about 2700 fps. with primarily IMR-4895. Have no complaints and have experienced no problems. Never owned a set of small base dies either. Always figured on getting a set if needed but they were never needed. Used to run Federal Gold Medal LR primers in my M-1 and M1-A loads and never had a slam fire, maybe because I ALWAYS check for high primers. Ran out of the Federal primers years ago and now run CCI # 34 LR primers exclusively because they are rated as mil-spec for use in 7.62mm ammunition in terms of primer hardness or whatever other specs they must meet. It's been mentioned already about how cases must be resized enough to be able to chamber completely and that's an excellent point. The shoulder should be set back on a resized case enough to allow it to chamber ALL the way in to where it has to be. Otherwise the whole back end of that chambered cartridge will be out there too far just waiting for that bolt to slam forward with perhaps the same result as a high primer. This is where a cartridge headspace gauge is invaluable. Once you know the dimensions of your rifles chamber you can put the gauge on a resized case and know immediately if it's good to go to reload it for your rifle. Have never gone over 168 gr. in bullet weight in a Garand and now stick to the 150 gr. stuff for all different loads. Even set the M-1 up for deer this fall in a rifle zone by just substituting a 150 gr. Nosler Accubond for the usual 150 gr. FMJ and using a 5 round clip instead of the usual 8 rounder. Just sighted it in and did some chronographing this past week. Hope to fill a deer tag this fall in honor of one of my late uncles who carried a Garand in WWII and thought it would be neat for me to get a deer with one.
     
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  19. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    Some of the pioneers over at Cast Boolets have been doing experimentation wit shooting cast lead in the Garland. Specifically, they have settled on shooting a 200 grain gas checked bullet with a reduced charge of what would otherwise be a WAY too slow powder like IMR 4831. I have loaded and shot a couple of boxes of these loads and have found that when I started down a couple of grains below the recommended load I wasn't getting 100% cycling. This made me feel pretty comfortable that I wasn't stressing my op rod. Initial results have been encouraging, but I have beeen careful to drop each round into the chamber to check fit, and I'm using the harder military primers.
     
  20. Clark

    Clark Member

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    M1 Garrand Springfield Dec 1943,   11-5-2012.jpg

    In 1997 I bought two Garrands from 1941, paid $350 for one and $400 for the other. They both came indirectly via the CMP.
    1 minus the 20th root of $730/$375 is 3.4% compounded annually.
    Most guns, Gold, guitars, and oil increase in value at 3%... so I should not complain, but my stock portfolio [MSFT, GOOG, AMZN, and AAPL] has made over 20% compounded annually since 1997.
    My father shot a Garrand in WWII and thought they were clumsy. He like the 1903 Springfield. I like the Garrand sights.
     
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  21. stoky

    stoky Member

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    Having recently bend an op-rod with some 4320 :oops: (loaded before I knew better), I'd say don't go slower than 4064.
    Along with a reconditioned op-rod, mine now has a Schuster gas plug.
     
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  22. ford8nr

    ford8nr Member

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    But ya can't shoot any of it can ya ?
    :rofl:
     
  23. Clark

    Clark Member

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    Ford, I have 9 tags for 2017. I will probably fill 8 of them. I will take 5 rifles I have built this year. I will probably never shoot the Garrands more than the one time I did 20 years ago.
     
  24. eastbank

    eastbank Member

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    the first service rifle i was issued was a m-14 and i had to have one and bought the next best thing, i like to think its the m-1 garands son. i have one m-1 garand in ex condition i bought from cmp that i like to take out and shoot, but the m-14-M-1A is my favorite. when i had to give it up for a m-16, i felt like i lost a girl friend. eastbank.
     

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  25. hps1

    hps1 Member

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    As stated earlier, my first issue rifle was the M1, later, an M1 Carbine. Had the shooting started, I always planned to dump the carbine at first opportunity and get hold of a garand, which was capable of reaching out and touching someone.

    Our unit was never issued M14's prior to my separation, but in 1961-62 I was on post AMU and they brought a few M14's to one of our practice sessions and had just enough ammo for each team member to fire three rounds! Shooter's choice, we could fire either semi or full auto. Naturally, we all chose semi to see how accurate they were.

    As is the case any time a service weapon is changed, I'm sure, we were all quite critical of the M14, being rather happy with what we were issued. My concern with the M14 was the bolt lug being reduced to fit the roller might weaken the bolt (compared to the M1 w/uncut bolt lug) and break in use (may have been enhanced by the fact that I had an M1 Carbine bolt lug break during rapid fire qualification many years prior, disabling the rifle). Of course, that did not prove to be an issue once issued.

    I did purchase an M1a and shot both the M1 and M1a in competition as a civilian. (Still preferred the M1 as I believe they held bedding a bit longer than the M1a, but the magazine on the M14 sure is better for offhand shooting as it makes a good "palm rest" :).

    Regards,
    hps
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017

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