More UPS stupidity

[Zundfolge]

Earlier this evening I'm in the shower and my wife tells me someone's at the door ... and they have a long box!

I tell her its probably UPS (although its a bit late) so she goes to the door and it turns out to be our neighbor from two doors down.

Earlier today he got a package from UPS ... he does a lot of Ebay traiding so he just assumed it was his and opened it. Much to his surprise it contained a VZ24! MY VZ24. So he looked at the box again and sure enough there was my name and address, so thats how he ends up on our porch.

Well I have mostly good neighbors, but what if I had a nut case or gang member living two doors down (actually the neighbor that lives next door to me but on the opposite side as the neighbor who got the gun IS a nutcase ... always yelling at people who aren't there or cussing out the mailman for bringing him too much junk mail ... should probably be on meds).

IIRC, firearms MUST be shipped to the address on the FFL (I have a C&R), so should I contact UPS and ride them about this? I would think that the UPS driver just committed a felony, and could have put a gun ... MY GUN in the hands of a criminal or nut!

Or am I just over-reacting?

 

[OEF_VET]

I would definitly contact UPS and inform them of this. Like you said, it could have ended up in the hands of a less-than-stable individual. Had that happened, the company you ordered it from would tell the cops "We sent it via UPS to Zundfolge". UPS would confirm that, and you'd have to answer questions as to why a gun delivered to you was used in a series of random interstate sniper attacks or whatever. I don't think the cops would be buying the "But I never saw the gun, it had to have been delivered to the wrong address." with much enthusiasm.

That driver should be reprimanded at a minimum. He violated Federal shipping regulations and his inattention to detail could have caused you a lot of problems. So I say, call UPS the first thing Monday and inform them of what happened. Ask to speak to someone in a management position and demand that something be done. If you don't get a satisfactory response, consider calling the ATF and telling them what happened. Let them be aware of UPS's disregard for firearms laws. This way if it happens to someone else, they have a precedent to show.

Frank

 

[hnm201]

Gosh Zundfolge, I am glad that you are so concerned about this. I operate my own mail/internet order business and rely on carriers(fedex and the U.S. Post Office, in my case) to make my business possible. I run my business out of my home and I am considering applying for a C&R liscense if I expand my business into firearms related items. So naturally I'm very interested in this thread.

Over the past few years I have occasionally (and quite recently) sold a few handguns out of my collection to individuals by shipping them to FFLs via FedEx. My usual MO of shipment has been

1) avoid using a "gun store address" to avoid printing a "steal me" label
2) insure the item at paid value
3) require a signature by receipient at residence.
4) ship via fastest possible method, per the carrier's rules for shipping handguns

I have never told or instructed the carrier (Fedex) that the package contained a Firearm. Does UPS require that you declare a package as a firearm? If so, is the package flagged so that the driver knows that it contains a firearm? Is there any way for the driver to know that you have a C&R or even know what a C&R is?

Though I primarily use FedEx and the Post Office for outbound shipments, I recieve packages daily at my home address from all kinds of carriers, including UPS. I recently had some pistols out for warranty and since I knew that UPS seems to be the more common carrier for firearms companies (that's purely anectodal), I had a conversation with the driver on my route. I wanted him to know that I didn't want packages delivered at my address to be left with neighbors. He said that since he was only on the route one or two days a week that the best thing was to post small notices on my storm doors (front and back), asking drivers to hold packages for pickup if I didn't answer the door and to not leave them with neighbors. I took his advice and have never had a problem. This means that I often have to pickup packages. Sometimes, if I know I won't be home with something is due to arrive I will ask the shipper to mark the package "hold for pickup", which means exactly that.

In my experience calling UPS to get this kind of thing handled would just be an exercise in frustration. In the years that I have relied on carriers for delivery and shipment of product I have found that my mileage varied greatly by the part of town I was in and who my drivers were. If you are going to receive a lot of packages, I recommend getting to know your driver and giving them "christmas cards". Find out if they are always on the route or if they share it. My advice is to work with him or her directly instead of going through the home office. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Zundfolge]

I have never told or instructed the carrier (Fedex) that the package contained a Firearm.

Its my understanding that Federal Law requires that you inform a shipper that you are shipping a firearm (last time I shipped a pistol, the lady at the UPS counter asked to see the signed FFL of the dealer I was shipping to).

Like you said, it could have ended up in the hands of a less-than-stable individual. Had that happened, the company you ordered it from would tell the cops "We sent it via UPS to Zundfolge". UPS would confirm that, and you'd have to answer questions as to why a gun delivered to you was used in a series of random interstate sniper attacks or whatever. I don't think the cops would be buying the "But I never saw the gun, it had to have been delivered to the wrong address." with much enthusiasm.

Yeah ... so some schumck in a brown shirt could get me murdered by BATFe JBTs (because a dynamic entry team will be assumed by me to be criminals engaged in a home invasion robbery and met with force ... thus getting me killed ... my dogs shot and my house burnt down :banghead: ).

So I say, call UPS the first thing Monday

Will do (well first thing Tuesday ... MLK Jr day and all)

 

[hnm201]

Its my understanding that Federal Law requires that you inform a shipper that you are shipping a firearm (last time I shipped a pistol, the lady at the UPS counter asked to see the signed FFL of the dealer I was shipping to.

There is no such Federal Law. Federal requires that you must ship to an FFL and that you must follow the carriers rules for shipping firearms. The post office's regulations require that only an FFL may ship firearms through their system. Fedex's requirements state that you must tell the person that you give the package to that the box contains a firearm. The last time I told a FedEx employee that a package that I had just handed him contained a firearm he just looked at me and said, "Cool!" Yes, I am contradicting my earlier statement. I told the FedEx counter clerk once and only once.

See the entire FedEx regulations regarding shipping firearms here: http://www.fedex.com/us/services/express/termsandconditions/us/firearms.html

I don't know what UPS's policies are. I don't ship with them for a variety of reasons. Shortly after 9/11 I had to overnight a package to a customer and he insisted that I ship it UPS on his account number, which required me to pack up and head to the UPS counter. When I walked up to the counter and said "just dropping off - the airbill on the package is filled out" they say, whoah there buddy, what's in this? A book, I answered. You have to show us, they said, please open this package. I promptly headed to fedex and shipped it on my tab.

I sincerely doubt that even though you had to show the UPS counter clerk a signed FFL that the package was flagged in anyway that would identify it as a firearm and I will doubt that until someone can prove it to me otherwise. I'm convinced that that was just a bunch of bs intended to discourage people from shipping firearms via UPS. The clerk was probably an anti was putting you through the hoops.

I have a shooting buddy that is a FedEx driver and I am going to ask him about this tomorrow.

 

[hnm201]

Zundfolge, if you ever ship pistols off for smith work or customization I encourage you to call the gunsmith and pick their brains about how they return ship firearms to customers. Two gunsmiths have told me that they follow the steps that I outlined in my first post to this thread and that they DO NOT declare the package contents to the carrier.

 

[hnm201]

UPS policy on shipping firearms

http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/service/terms/firearms.html

Oooh scary evil handguns must be shipped via the fastest and MOST EXPENSIVE method possible!

I am sure that FedEx and UPS enjoy the benefit of require their customers to ship via the fastest and most expensive method possible while suffering little in the way of addtional overhead for these types of shipments.

 

[glocksman]

A nonlicensed person has to notify the carrier of the contents of the shipment.


From the ATF FAQ:

B9) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by carrier?

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A) and 922(e), 27 CFR 178.31]

In this instance, it would appear that the UPS driver violated the law by not getting an adult signature.

27CFR Part 178.31

§ 178.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.
(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any
common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or
foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other
container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written
notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported
or shipped:
Provided, That any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm
or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for
movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver
said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain,
conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration
of that trip without violating any provision of this part.
(b) No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label,
tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package,
luggage, or other container indicating that such package, luggage, or
other container contains a firearm.
(c) No common or contract carrier shall transport or deliver in
interstate or foreign commerce any firearm or ammunition with knowledge or
reasonable cause to believe that the shipment, transportation, or receipt
thereof would be in violation of any provision of this part:
Provided, however, That the provisions of this paragraph shall not
apply in respect to the transportation of firearms or ammunition in
in -bond shipment under Customs laws and regulations.
(d) No common or contract carrier shall knowingly deliver in
interstate or foreign commerce any firearm without obtaining written
acknowledgement of receipt from the recipient of the package or other
container in which there is a firearm : Provided, That this paragraph
shall not apply with respect to the return of a firearm to a passenger who
places firearms in the carrier's custody for the duration of the trip.
[33 FR 18555, Dec. 14, 1968 . Redesignated at 40 FR 16385, Apr. 15, 1975,
and amended by T.D. ATF-354, 59 FR 7112, Feb. 14, 1994; T.D. ATF-361, 60
FR 10786, Feb. 27, 1995]

Going by the language used here ('knowingly deliver'), I'd say that you have to notify the carrier of what you're shipping no matter if you're an 01FFL or not. Otherwise how could the carrier comply with the law?

I'd call UPS, quote the law at them, and raise some Hell.
If UPS gives you the brush off, consider calling the BATF.

 

[hnm201]

Interesting. The law requires the shipper to be notified but prohibits the shipper from marking the package.

So how are all the links in the chain supposed to know the package contains a firearm if the package isn't marked?

If they don't know, then what is the point of telling the carrier in the first place?

Isn't even putting the information in a barcode still "marking the package"? I think so.

 

[Bill Hook]

I don't know about you, but I always write the make of the gun on the form when shipping, and consider this having informed the shipper. It is up to them to know what a makarov or sks are.

I didn't see it, but my Mom did, which was a segment on some news-type program where they toured UPS's facility in Louisville (takes up a huge chunk of the airport, having flown from there before) where they sort and process air freight. Apparently, the vast majority of the process is automated and no human touches the package, which rung a bell with me on why they insist on using air freight to ship handguns.

 

[glocksman]

So how are all the links in the chain supposed to know the package contains a firearm if the package isn't marked?

All the links aren't supposed to know.

• The sender obviously knows what's in the package.
• The clerk at UPS or FedEx knows after they read your paperwork and flag the package as 'signature required'.
• The material handlers don't need to know what's in the box.
• All the driver needs to know is that a signature is required upon delivery.
• The recipient should know, or at least suspect, that long box he signed for is a rifle and not curtain rods

It shouldn't be flagged because flagging it with a 'FIREARM' label just shouts 'STEAL ME'.

I haven't had it happen with a firearm shipment, but I have had the FedEx driver forge my signature on his pad and leave my packages at the door.

If I were a dishonest person, I would have just claimed I never got the stuff and disputed the charge with my CC company and had a free computer instead of a $500 one.

If it had been a firearm my first call would have been to the regional BATF office, not FedEx.

 

[Beetle Bailey]

FWIW, I have had a few rifles shipped to me (I have a C&R license) and one time the UPS driver showed up with the long box and as I was signing, he quibbed "Hmmm. . .long box with a sticker marked 'Adult Signature' required. I wonder what this is?" He said it jokingly and sarcastically, like he knew exactly what it was. . . . I tried (but I think the big stupid grin on my face gave me away ) to pass it off with a "Oh, my new Persian rug is finally here." He just laughed.

 

[Jack19]

I know exactly how you feel. Last night, about 8.30pm, my neighbor from three houses down rings the bell and tells me that UPS delivered boxes of "small arms ammunition" to her porch two days ago. And they've been sitting there ever since.

Turns out it was 4000 rounds of 9mm and .223 from GA Arms and a bunch of Uzi mags from Vector. The address on the boxes was correct, UPS just delivered to the wrong house by transposing the last two numbers of the address.

Reading is FunDUHmental.

 

[TarpleyG]

Well, I had to return a pistol to S&W earlier this year for repair. I called and spoke to someone at S&W to get shipping instructions. She e-mailed me a standard 'to-do' list which instructed me to simply ship it overnight using FedEx and insure it. It never stated anything about declaring it. Wouldn't one assume that they would at least make an attempt to inform the customer of the correct, legal procedure if it were a big deal???

Anyway, pitol got there and back and no one was any the wiser.

GT

 

[PAshooter]

Dominic:

Kind of an aside from the main topic of this thread, but your statement caught my eye:

I operate my own mail/internet order business and rely on carriers(fedex and the U.S. Post Office, in my case) to make my business possible. I run my business out of my home and I am considering applying for a C&R liscense if I expand my business into firearms related items. So naturally I'm very interested in this thread.

Don't know if you're aware of this or not, but a C&R license only permits you to collect curio and relic firearms, not to deal in them - that requires a Type 01 license. A certain amount of selling is allowed, but only if - in the opinion of the BATFE - it falls into the realm of upgrading / expanding your collection.

Selling non-gun accessories, of course, doesn't require any kind of federal license on the part of the dealer.

 

[EOD Guy]

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its my understanding that Federal Law requires that you inform a shipper that you are shipping a firearm (last time I shipped a pistol, the lady at the UPS counter asked to see the signed FFL of the dealer I was shipping to.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


There is no such Federal Law. Federal requires that you must ship to an FFL and that you must follow the carriers rules for shipping firearms. The post office's regulations require that only an FFL may ship firearms through their system. Fedex's requirements state that you must tell the person that you give the package to that the box contains a firearm. The last time I told a FedEx employee that a package that I had just handed him contained a firearm he just looked at me and said, "Cool!" Yes, I am contradicting my earlier statement. I told the FedEx counter clerk once and only

Dominic,

You are partially correct. There is a Federal law requiring notification to a carrier if a package contains a firearm. It is codified in 27CFR178.31(a). However, this only applies if you are shipping to an unlicensed individual. If you are shipping to an FFL, notification is not required. As far as the USPS is concerned, you do not need to have an FFL to mail rifles or shotguns. You must be a dealer or manufacturer in order to mail handguns.

 

[EOD Guy]

Going by the language used here ('knowingly deliver'), I'd say that you have to notify the carrier of what you're shipping no matter if you're an 01FFL or not. Otherwise how could the carrier comply with the law?

glocksman,

Neither the law nor the regulation require notification when shipping to a licensee, only to a nonlicensee.

I've been working with state and federal regulations for most of my adult life and one of the first things I learned about them was that logic and common sense will only get you in trouble.

Rich

 

[Dannyboy]

Will do (well first thing Tuesday ... MLK Jr day and all)

Call Monday, we're working. Call around 8am. That way you can talk to the supe who can then talk to the driver before he rolls out.

 

[Byron Quick]

I live in a small town which can make a big difference. Not only is it the same UPS and FedEx driver for years now but they know where I'm probably at if I'm not home. I've met them on the highway and they flash their lights.

 

[ajacobs]

I say no harm no fowl. IF you want to get the rest of your packages, don't complain. I know that is a lousy possition to take. But in this case for me, I would. I would mention something freindly like to the ups man himself.

 

[cobb]

You can't do a thing about UPS, I've tried.

UPS left 2 Springfield Armory 1911's at a house that was vacant, wrong address of course, and these where being returned to me from the factory. When the new owners moved in, their boys found them in the garage and the father brought them over to me. They had stickers that plainly stated that an adult signiture was required. I filed a complaint with UPS and their responce was that I was wrong. They flat out said that they had my signiture for the delivery, and I must be mistaken. I tried to get through to different UPS employees on their 800 number and hit a dead end with every one.

I have another story where UPS left the package, with a sticker that said an adult signiture required, on the front step of my home. Again, a handgun.

So don't waste your time with ups, use Fed-X.

 

[hnm201]

So don't waste your time with ups, use Fed-X

My sentiments exactly. Of course, YMMV.

The other option is to have the shipper mark the package "Hold for Pickup" and pick up the package at your UPS depot if you're not going to be home.

I started thinking about this over breakfast and I just reviewed the statutes that are quoted above and yes, it appears that you don't have to notify the shipper of contents if you are shipping to a manufacturer, smith or FFL 01 liscence holder. I now recall that I got these "rules of the road" from the first gunsmith that I shipped a pistol to years ago.

So, my question is, was the supplier required to notify the carrier of the contents when shipping to Zund (a C&L holder?). Even if they were, it looks like the only difference is that would have made would have been the ADULT SIGNATURE requirement on the package. There is no way the driver would have or should have known of the package's contents, and my understanding is that delivering to a neighbor who can sign with an adult signature is standard operating procedure. So what, exactly, is the point of calling up UPS to ream them?

IMHO the best option is to post signs that say HOLD MY PACKAGES if sig required and I am not home.

 

[George S.]

While I haven't received a gun via shipment to my door, I do order ammo from internet sources and the company I use will only ship Fed-Ex with an adult signature required. That's fine with me as I'm usually home thru the week.

When UPS delivers anything to me, whether or not I'm home, it just gets dropped on the porch. Last week, I was in the garage and the UPS guy walks up hands me a box and says "here ya go" and walks off. No check on my ID, didn't ask for a name or a signature on his little electronic dealie (he had it with him.

A couple of years ago, I ordered a set of tires on-line and they were delivered by UPS when I was at work. $1500 worth of ultra-high perfromance tires sat on the front porch in full view of God and the whole world all day long. Needless to say, I was pizzed. A sailor would have been proud of the words I used to describe UPS and their driver.

UPS wants to keep its shiny stats up for their on-time, deliver on the first try books. Having to take stuff back, off-load the truck, re-load the next morning and try again costs wages, gas and whatever. So, the drivers just dump packages on the doorstep. IMHO, UPS is the worst at this practice and if there are shipping options, I select either FedEx or USPS.

If you order something of the internet, find vendors who offer shipping options that include a delivery signature and an adult signature at that. It may cost extra and may even delay getting what you have ordered, but it can cut down on the possiblity of lost or even stolen packages.

 

[glocksman]

There is no way the driver would have or should have known of the package's contents, and my understanding is that delivering to a neighbor who can sign with an adult signature is standard operating procedure. So what, exactly, is the point of calling up UPS to ream them?

Because the law does require firearms to be delivered to the address on the receiver's FFL. Your neighbor doesn't count.

I've been told (ain't gonna say it's true, though) that you can legally have a firearm held at the depot for pickup as long as the person picking it up is the FFL holder, but your neighbor signing for it at his address is illegal.

 

[hnm201]

Because the law does require firearms to be delivered to the address on the receiver's FFL.

Law, schlmalw. How is the driver supposed to know that the package contains a firearm if no one tells him?

If you're not going to be home to sign for your packages, have the carrier hold your packages for pickup.

I don't have to be an FFL holder if I pick up a package sent to me by a Manufacturer or liscensed gunsmith that holds an FFL that is returning my property sent to them for repair. If and FFL wants to send me a gun that I am buying, it must be sent to an FFL.

Why is this so confusing?