More UPS stupidity

[Edward429451]

Did they get a signature at the other house?

Before calling UPS, I'd touch base with the neighbor about it and give him a heads up. They may call him or knock on his door about it and since he was nice enough to bring it back to you, you might not want to let this UPS thing catch him offguard and potentially sour relations.

Just a thought.

 

[glocksman]

Why is this so confusing?

These are federal regulations.

If the peasants could easily understand them, then no one would unknowingly violate them and help keep the enforcers of the edicts in business.

Law, schlmalw. How is the driver supposed to know that the package contains a firearm if no one tells him?

The UPS tariff does require that you notify them if a package contains a firearm and to affix 'adult signature required' stickers on the carton.

 

[Sheslinger]

We were getting our first P99 back from being fixed by Walther, and the driver left the package with our neighbors' nephew who was about 14.

Nice.

Sheslinger

 

[Peetmoss]

I have never had a problem with UPS. I know my driver and he will track me down. If he misses me at home he will try my work and if he misses me there he will swing by my home at the end of his run. Also if he is going on vacation he tells the sub driver if any thing comes through with my addy on it and I am not home try my work. I suppose it helps that I have fixed his truck saving him a long wait and he can help himself to coffee or soda out of the fridge. He brought the part back the next day with some UPS freebies with thanks from him and his boss.

I scratch your back you scracth mine goes along way.

 

[hnm201]

glocksman wrote:

The UPS tariff does require that you notify them if a package contains a firearm and to affix 'adult signature required' stickers on the carton.

I receive lots of packages that require adult signatures and don't contain firearms. If I hadn't requested UPS to hold packages if I am not home to sign, their standard operating procedure would be to ask the neighbor to sign for the package.

So again, glocksman, how is the driver supposed to know that a package contains a firearm? The answer is that he can't, unless the person who took the firearm package at the counter (who you notified) called the driver personally and told them. The counter clerk can't mark the package or shipping manifest "CONTAINS FIREARM", so the driver doesn't know that he must comply with the law requiring him to delivered the package to the marked recipient and marked recipient ONLY and obtain their signature. The carrier system is inadequate for meeting the law's requirements 100% of the time. An adult signature is an adult signature to the driver.

You want to make sure that UPS complies with the law and doesn't get you in trouble? Then be at home and ready to sign for your package when the driver gets there with your gun. Otherwise, post notices on your door asking the driver to hold your packages if you are not there to sign for them.

Why do I find myself in the position of defending UPS, a company that I loathe?

 

[BluesBear]

Why do I find myself in the position of defending UPS, a company that I loathe?

Because it's the right thing to do. That's why this is The High Road.

Besides even a broken junk watch is correct once or twice a day.

 

[glocksman]

So again, glocksman, how is the driver supposed to know that a package contains a firearm? The answer is that he can't, unless the person who took the firearm package at the counter (who you notified) called the driver personally and told them. The counter clerk can't mark the package or shipping manifest "CONTAINS FIREARM", so the driver doesn't know that he must comply with the law requiring him to delivered the package to the marked recipient and marked recipient ONLY and obtain their signature.

The law says:

d) No common or contract carrier shall knowingly deliver in
interstate or foreign commerce any firearm without obtaining written
acknowledgement of receipt from the recipient of the package or other
container in which there is a firearm

The key word is 'knowingly'.

If he didn't know the package was a firearm, that's his defense if he was otherwise following company policy in delivering the package.

That still wouldn't absolve UPS as a company if you followed procedure and told the clerk that there was a firearm in the package and it was delivered to your neighbor instead of you, but it would keep them from dumping on the driver unless he ignored the 'adult signature required' labels.

And for those of you who would consider lying to UPS about the package contents in order to save a few bucks when shipping a firearm, consider this:

If you fail to notify UPS that a carton contains a firearm and because of that, it's not flagged 'adult signature required' and its left at your door and stolen, you can't claim the insurance on the package because you lied about the contents.

 

[Tomac]

A few years back I sent a Mini-14 to Ruger for warranty work and when it returned UPS left it leaning against my garage door right out on the street (!!!)
While the USPS doesn't require you to ship long arms *through* an FFL it does have to be shipped *to* an FFL. Handguns must be shipped FFL to FFL.
Tomac

 

[Dannyboy]

Last week, I was in the garage and the UPS guy walks up hands me a box and says "here ya go" and walks off. No check on my ID, didn't ask for a name or a signature on his little electronic dealie (he had it with him.

If he had asked for ID, I'd bet your post would have gone something like this, "Last week the UPS guy comes up to my garage with a package for me and asks for my ID. He asked me for ID in my own home! What is up with that?"

There's no pleasing some people.

 

[hnm201]

Glocksman,

Federal law prohibits either the sender or the carrier from marking the package as containing a firearm. Therefore when it comes to following the letter of the law, the law itself makes the carrier's job somewhat difficult. However, you and receipient are certainly AWARE the that package you are due to receive contains a firearm, unlike the driver. So if you want to make sure that federal laws are followed (and who doesn't?) then either be at home and be ready to receive the package containing firearms or post notices asking your packages to he held if you are not home to sign for them.

Regarding cost of Adult Signature service : Shipping with an "Adult Signature Required" via UPS costs an additional $1.75 for customers walking up to the counter. I am sure that manufacturers and FFLs dealing in handguns probably get that service for free if they do enough volume with UPS. Shipping with an Adult Signature Required via FedEX incurs no additional cost.

Now here is where it gets interesting
I decided to call both UPS and FedEx this morning and ask them about shipping *handguns* to FFLs or antique firearms to C&R dealers. I know that what started this ball rolling was a post about a rifle shipped to a C&R holder.

UPS - At first the customer rep suggested that I could not ship the gun assembled and would have to ship it in separate pieces in separate packages. I told politely told her no, that was not the case and pressed her for other answers. Then she called in her manager to answer my questions:

Me: "I want to ship a modern handgun to a liscense 01 FFL. Do I need to inform the counter clerk that the package contains a handgun?"
UPS: "Yes."
Me: "What does the clerk do with that information?"
UPS: "Nothing. They just need to know. They may ask you to open the package and show them its contents."
Me: "Don't you think that people would be rattled if I walked in with an unsealed box containing a handgun?"
UPS "Maybe. Have you done this before?"
Me: "Yes. What if I want to ship a handgun to a Curio & Relic License holder?"
UPS "A what?"
Me: "That's a license for dealing in curio and relic firearms. You know. collectibles, antiques, etc."
UPS: "Well, they don't work, right? Then I don't think it's a problem."
Me: "Well, this one works, but it's a collectible."
UPS: "Well then it's still dangerous and you have to follow the same rules."
................

FedEx

Me: "I want to ship a modern handgun to a liscense 01 FFL. Do I need to inform the counter clerk that the package contains a handgun?"
FedEX : "No. If you are shipping to a license holder or manufacturer, you just need to ship express (vs ground) and mark the package signature required. Do not mark the package as containing a firearm or handgun. Just don't ship ammunition with the firearm."
Me: "Why not?"
FedEx : "Because the ammunition is dangerous goods and the firearm is not dangerous goods."
Me: "What if I am shipping to a Curio & Relic License holder?"
----same explaination of what a C&R license as had with UPS follows
FedEx: "Same thing."

My take on this is that UPS doesn't do a damn thing with the information that you give them about the package contents. Why not? Because they legally can't. Marking the package or the manifest as containing a firearm is against Federal Law and they simply have no provisions for it in their system. The rigamarole that THR members have related about shipping firearms via FedEx and being asked for copies of the recipients Liscense is just that - rigamarole and nonsense, intended to bully the evil people that ship and own nasty firearms. I think that if you had to make an insurance claim with UPS for a firearm that there would be no way that they could prove that you didn't tell the clerk that the package contained a firearm, just as they couldn't prove that you did in a BATF investigation. But I'll never know because I'll never ship a firearm via UPS. I've had to make insurance claims with them in the past on books and that was hard enough. In my many years of shipping FedEx I have never had to make an insurance claim.

 

[hnm201]

Tomac said:

While the USPS doesn't require you to ship long arms *through* an FFL it does have to be shipped *to* an FFL. Handguns must be shipped FFL to FFL.

Edited (my mistake) - The above applies to the United States Postal Service and not United Parcel Service, just as Tomac clearly stated.

 

[hnm201]

I need to point out, for those of you that are unclear, that the "Adult Signature Required" delivery option offered by UPS and FedEx is not an option particular to firearms. It is often used for any package that contains expensive or sensitive contents.

 

[Tomac]

Tomac said:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
While the USPS doesn't require you to ship long arms *through* an FFL it does have to be shipped *to* an FFL. Handguns must be shipped FFL to FFL.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The above by Tomac is misinformation. Please review previous posts in this thread."

Dominic, care to supply the hard data/regs to support your statement?
Tomac

 

[hnm201]

Tomac, respectfully, I already have and in some detail. But to reiterate:

You can start here, with the stated UPS policy:

http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/service/terms/firearms.html

Then combine that with the the links posted earlier that reference the federal law regarding shipment of handguns (again, *read the thread*) and then finally call 1-800-PICKUPS if you don't believe me.

 

[hnm201]

Bill Hook wrote:

I didn't see it, but my Mom did, which was a segment on some news-type program where they toured UPS's facility in Louisville (takes up a huge chunk of the airport, having flown from there before) where they sort and process air freight. Apparently, the vast majority of the process is automated and no human touches the package, which rung a bell with me on why they insist on using air freight to ship handguns.

They require air freight for no other reason than their customers will tolerate it, meaning that they can get away with it. I am sure that they would prefer to require air freight on everything that is under 5 lbs (most handguns) anyway. And that's the whole point of UPS's song and dance - to make shipping firearms a BFD and justify their demand that they be shipped air.

 

[glocksman]

Federal law prohibits either the sender or the carrier from marking the package as containing a firearm. Therefore when it comes to following the letter of the law, the law itself makes the carrier's job somewhat difficult.

Yes it does, that's why the wording states 'knowingly deliver'. The driver has no way of knowing what in the package, therefore he's not in violation if he inadvertently delivers a firearm without a signature.

However, you and receipient are certainly AWARE the that package you are due to receive contains a firearm, unlike the driver. So if you want to make sure that federal laws are followed (and who doesn't?) then either be at home and be ready to receive the package containing firearms or post notices asking your packages to he held if you are not home to sign for them.

Ironically, requesting 'hold at depot' is what I do with almost all deliveries of anything because I work 2nd shift and UPS has the bad habit on my route of making home deliveries after I have to leave for work.

Sometimes that doesn't work either, though. My M38 Nagant from Aztec had 3 UPS 'hold at depot' labels on it with my phone number.

Imagine my surprise when I got home from work 2 days later and found the box had been delivered. My landlord signed for it, but that wasn't what they were supposed to do.

My point is that the best thing to do is just follow UPS's rules in re shipping firearms. Don't lie about what's in the package, make sure that it's sent 'adult signature required', hold on to your UPS paperwork, and then relax. You've done your part.

If UPS screws up and delivers it to the wrong address, if it gets stolen by someone working for UPS, or if it's left out on the porch and your neighbor's 16 year old steals it, you're legally covered, the gun is insured, and UPS is in trouble.

If you've lied to them about the package contents, then the legal waters become much murkier.

 

[Tomac]

Dominic, your link is to UPS not *USPS* which is what I was referring to (I suggest your re-read *my* post).
Here are the quotes from the USPS Pub 52 (Section 43) on:

"Unloaded Handguns:
Mailer must be licensed manufacturer or dealer mailing to another licensed
manufacturer or dealer.
Addressee is FBI (or its Director) or scientific lab or crime detection bureau of any agency whose members are federal law enforcement officers, or state, district, or territory officers authoirzed to serve warrants of arrest or commitment.
Manufacturers or dealers must complete PS Form 1508, Statement by Shipper of Firearms, and file with the postmaster.
Postmasters may forward an unsatisfactory mailer statement to their RCSC for a ruling."

and

"Unloaded Rifle or Shotgun:
Short-barrelled rifles or shotguns that can be concealed on the person are
nonmailable.
Mailer must comply with Gun Control Act of 1968 and with state and local laws.
USPS may require mailer to open parcel or give written certification that
weapon is unloaded and not concealable.
Registered mail service is recommended."

The DMM (Domestic Mail Manual) Section C024 says the same thing. Check with your local USPS office if you don't believe me.
Tomac

 

[spacemanspiff]

i dont know about stateside, but up here fedex hires contract drivers in addition to full-fledged fedex employees. the contract driver provides their own vehicle and bids on routes that come up. they are paid in weird methods, depending on how many packages they deliver, how many stops they make, and a plethora of other nickel and dime stuff.
but it adds up. one driver i know makes somewhere around $70,000 a year (before taxes).

those contract drivers are held responsible for packages that are "lost", but they only pay a maximum of $500, insurance covers the rest.

they dont care if they package is signed for, just as long as they get paid for delivering it. if theres any way to make sure the package is delivered by a full fledged fedex employee, thats the way to go.

 

[Zundfolge]

There is no way the driver would have or should have known of the package's contents, and my understanding is that delivering to a neighbor who can sign with an adult signature is standard operating procedure. So what, exactly, is the point of calling up UPS to ream them?

The driver doesn't need to know the contents, but he should be capable of reading the address on the package and delivering the package to THAT address ... not some other address (I believe this is the central purpose for their existance).

My wife and I WHERE home when he delivered the package to my neighbor (I remember seeing the UPS truck drive by ... getting all excited that my rifle was here and seeing him drive on to my neighbors house. I just assumed the rifle wasn't in his truck).

This isn't a case where he made an attempt to deliver and nobody was home so he left it with the neighbor ... this is a case where he didn't read the address. The neighbor in question has the same first name as me and does a lot of Ebay trading so the UPS guy got lazy and didn't read the address part of the label. When I don't read instructions at work, I get a talkin' to by my boss ... but if I screw up its not like a firearm is going to end up in the hands of a criminal or a loony (my neighbor on the other side of me IS a loony).

I don't want the driver taken out to the woodshed or fired, I just want him to be reminded that he has to deliver packages to the addresses on them.

I didn't bring the shipping label with me to work today so I'm going to call them tomorrow. I'll post whatever response I get (I don't expect much).

 

[hnm201]

My bad, Tomac I derailed my own train of thought when I read your comment about the UPS delivery being left against your garage door and then read "USPS" as "UPS". Yes, as you know, everything that you said about USPS policy is correct. I will now edit my previous post.

 

[Tomac]

No problem, Dominic. I've certainly made my share of mistakes in the past and I'm sure I'll continue to make mistakes in the future. I agree that it's important that people have accurate information about how to legally ship firearms so they don't run afoul of the alphabet crowd. Thx for all your other useful information!...
Tomac

 

[Bill Hook]

They require air freight for no other reason than their customers will tolerate it, meaning that they can get away with it. I am sure that they would prefer to require air freight on everything that is under 5 lbs (most handguns) anyway. And that's the whole point of UPS's song and dance - to make shipping firearms a BFD and justify their demand that they be shipped air.

In part, maybe. However, I'm sure that the fact that fewer hands will touch it and, hence, steal it, are a bigger part of the matter. UPS has very little control of its package handlers, so minimizing their contact isn't a bad move. I'm sure, if they tried, they could do the same for other freight as well.