Mosin nagant m38 as a Scout/shtf weapon?

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I think an M38 or M44 Nagant is an excellent idea. I keep an M44 and a sealed case of ammo in my trunk at all times. As far as speed goes, just practice. The action on a rough and tumble pieced together parts gun is not as a slick as a Mauser action, but it is not as bad as some people seem to think.
 
Mannlicher said:
*chuckle* like I said, there is a cult following. :)

and I did NOT say that the cartridge or rifle was junk, just that its obsolete, and that there are better choices.
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I'd say the cartridge design is archaic, but then again so is the .30-30, .303, .45 Colt, .45-70, etc. etc. None of them are obsolete.
 
One accessory that I'd very strongly recommend for a Mosin in a Scout configuration is a good flash-hider. Shooting that thing with milsurp ammo at dusk or dawn is an enlightening experience - to put it mildly!

:what: :evil: :D
 
Preacherman said:
One accessory that I'd very strongly recommend for a Mosin in a Scout configuration is a good flash-hider. Shooting that thing with milsurp ammo at dusk or dawn is an enlightening experience - to put it mildly!

:what: :evil: :D
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Ditto...don't know who I got this pic from, but it DOES look like this.
BTW, no cartridge is obsolete if still in current military service.
 
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bad LT said:
They worked well enough when the SHTF in Stalingrad, Moscow, Berlin, Chosin, Norway, Poland, etc.
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Yeah, but the Soviets had the highest casualty totals of any nation in that war:
9 million soldiers killed, 18 million wounded, for 27 million military casualties (not counting POWs)

For comparison, the second highest rates were for the German military which was:

3.5 million killed, 4.6 million wounded, for 8.1 million total military casualties (not counting POWs)

Obviously that isn't all small arms (and tactics have a lot to do with it), but of course no one (or few anyway) argue that, as good a basic rifle as it is, the Nagant was the best battle rifle of WWII or even the best bolt battle rifle of WWII. I'm not sure the fact that it was used by one of the victors says quite enough about the gun's utility for a "shtf" situation.
 
The fact that the Mosin is still in use today in Finland as a Sniper's rifle says enough, though, and those are with the old Imperial recievers and magazines! The vast majority of casualties in WWII came from artillery and bombs, not small arms. Yet, Soviets armed with Mosins did very well. The Finns did as well (suffering very low casualty rates). Soldiers armed with Mosins were just as well armed as those armed with Mausers or Arisakas (5 rounds, generally equal accuracy). Fundamentally, there isn't a thing wrong with the Mosin. The safety requires getting used to, but it is the most positive safety available (and is very quite to operate), the magazine feeds well, no jamming from the rimmed cartridge (which means being a rimmed cartridge is of no consequence), the trigger isn't so hot unless it was a Finnish trigger, but it works reliably and doesn't break, and the sights are no worse than on a Mauser, better than used by the Carcano.

As a rural rifle, the Mosins are great. I use a 91/59 interchangeably with my Marlin 336 or Mossberg 479 lever guns. It has more power but is slower to fire, is somewhat heavier but still compact and easy to carry. Personally, I would say get the M38 and that's that. Skip the mount (though the scout mounts are pretty good) and use it as is. For 100 yard shots or less, the open sights work just find, and is certainly capable out to 200 with decent accuracy (of course, not wonderful accuracy however).

Ash
 
I must say a lot of it comes down to price, and what you can afford. If you're like me, and a pizza once every two weeks is fine dining, then a Mosin M38 represents a major expense, but one that you can afford. If you can afford more, and to lose more if your truck is stolen, then move to a Yugo SKS, a Savage 308 bolt gun with cheap scope, or if your finances are legendary, get thee a Steyr AUG and crate the puppy up in the back of the Hummer. Two basic requirements - what you want, and what you can afford. If I could retire my Mosin for an FAL, I would. Wouldn't ever sell it, but retire, yes.
Back to practical - if you do get a Mosin carbine, remember to pack a small bottle of Windex with ammonia, to help kill the corrosive salts from surplus ammo. Just run a patch or three of that down the bore, and on the bolt, then clean normally.
Also, a recoil pad is advisable - I got the slip on cheapie from WalMart. Still have one left from when I had to sell my 91/30s...
 
armoredman said:
I must say a lot of it comes down to price, and what you can afford. If you're like me, and a pizza once every two weeks is fine dining, then a Mosin M38 represents a major expense, but one that you can afford. If you can afford more, and to lose more if your truck is stolen, then move to a Yugo SKS, a Savage 308 bolt gun with cheap scope, or if your finances are legendary, get thee a Steyr AUG and crate the puppy up in the back of the Hummer. Two basic requirements - what you want, and what you can afford. If I could retire my Mosin for an FAL, I would. Wouldn't ever sell it, but retire, yes.
Back to practical - if you do get a Mosin carbine, remember to pack a small bottle of Windex with ammonia, to help kill the corrosive salts from surplus ammo. Just run a patch or three of that down the bore, and on the bolt, then clean normally.
Also, a recoil pad is advisable - I got the slip on cheapie from WalMart. Still have one left from when I had to sell my 91/30s...
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Thanks armoredman, I will do that. i was looking for one of those slip-on recoil pads the other day, and couldn't find one at wallyworld here. would you be interested in selling your exter one?
 
You know, SHTF scenarios can be fun, but having gone through one, I found the firearm was the least of my concerns. I kept my Witness in .45 handy, but didn't have the need to go further and let's face it, Mad Max ain't coming around any time soon. In truth, SHTF is just an excuse to get another firearm (responsibility of every person to defend the nation was my justification for buying an M1a) and then seeing what can be done with it. An SKS makes undeniably a decent SHTF rifle because its cheap and spending too much on preparing for the asteroid that sends us into primitive future wasteland, or on mutant evil blue helmeted UN invasions is pretty silly.

If you were really preparing for the end and having to live off the land for the next 30 years, a good bolt action centerfire rifle (and a back up in same caliber) with a good scope and iron sights with a whole lot of sealed ammo, along with a very good side arm with a bunch of sealed ammo, a decent pump shotgun (or even single shot) and a .22 or .410, along with several very good knives, rugged clothing, a decent shelter (tent) for the short term until you can build something better, bedding, a complete set of tools, both mechanics and carpentry (pioneer), good gloves, and two months minimum supply of food and water purification (either a Sweetwater pump or tablets) would be a far better investment than a tricked out SKS, M14, FAL, or the like.

However, it is fun to trick out a rifle and using SHTF as an excuse is as good as any. Mosins would make superb SHTF weapons, unaltered, because they are utterly rugged and DO survive in horrible conditions for years and years, just as Enfields or Mausers (which you will find in Afghanistan or many African republics).

It is also fun to debate which makes the better, just as it was once fun to debate how many spirits could dance on the head of a pin. Yet in the final analysis, some folks can get real wound up over what is just as likely as finding those dancing spirits. Would the Mosin make a good SHTF? As good and capable as any.

Ash
 
Go buy one and have fun tinkering with it. I just decided to buy a cheap highpowered rifle to keep in truck, strap to four wheeler instead of scratching up my Featherweight Classic.

Instead of bubbafying an SKS, I went with tried and true K98K Mauser that had already been bubbafied with a fugly ATI stock, but I can mount a regular scope on it ( took the 3x9x40 off my 10/.22:evil: ).

Ugly? Yes. Reliable? Yes. As cheap to find ammo for as the SKS? No. As cheap as the SKS? No. Fun to shoot things? Yes.


i224959hz02.jpg
 
5000 rounds of 7.62x54R? Ok, buying 7 cases from J&G Sales, (which I cannot afford yet), without shipping (I can drive up there to avoid THAT charge), is $392.56. That equals 5460 rounds of Czech Silvertip 148gr LPS bullet light ball ammo, sealed in tins.
By way of comparison, using the same company, (easy referance), 5000 rounds of Wolf .223 runs $599.50, and this is half the price of the .223 surplus they offer. .308? Oddly enough, the exact same, $599.50, but this is for the infamous Indian 308, though they say they sorted it to rid of the defective ones.
Even the Wolf 7.62x39mm is $595.95 for 1000, if they had any.

So, the ammo cost is kinda moot. Also, I buy small lots, because I can't afford big ones, but I get way more bang for my buck, when paying $1.50 for 20 rounds....
 
If you were really preparing for the end and having to live off the land for the next 30 years, a good bolt action centerfire rifle (and a back up in same caliber) with a good scope and iron sights with a whole lot of sealed ammo, along with a very good side arm with a bunch of sealed ammo, a decent pump shotgun (or even single shot) and a .22 or .410, along with several very good knives, rugged clothing, a decent shelter (tent) for the short term until you can build something better, bedding, a complete set of tools, both mechanics and carpentry (pioneer), good gloves, and two months minimum supply of food and water purification (either a Sweetwater pump or tablets) would be a far better investment than a tricked out SKS, M14, FAL, or the like.
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I don't dispute the utility of the items you listed, but in situations where the local Piggly Wiggly runs out of food, humans have a nasty tendency to take what they need from anyone, by any means necessary. Your useful stuff would be highly desirable, so it's not altogether unreasonable to back up your property rights with a rifle designed to make lots of holes in lots of miscreants in a short amount of time.
 
Which is why I have a Remington 870:D

If there are so many that I have to really engage in an extended firefight, I'm screwed anyway. Armed with a tripod mounted 1917 Browning with a 200 round belt, I'd still get overwhelmed. All it would take would be someone coming in from behind. Alone, there is very little I could do. In the case of the bad guys coming that fast (and as such, that close), two CZ-75's with extra mags each would be more effective than an FAL/AK/SKS, you name it. If I'm in a Blackhawk Down scenario, better get in the Jeep with said provisions and drive away.

But in Katrina country, that wasn't a problem for us. Even the New Orleans rumors were just that, rumors. The mountains of corpses at the Superdome ended up being 4, and my partner's father, a surgeon at Tulane who only evacuated when there were no more patients left, walked 7 miles from downtown towards the lake and while he came in contact with many people, had to walk the I-10 divider because the road was under water, and ended up swimming a bayou (oh, and he's 78 years old (and also performed the very first lung transplant in the history of the world)). For him, SHTF and he didn't even need a firearm. For me, SHTF and I was just fine with my Witness .45 and even then I never felt the need to draw it. And if we end up in a situation where Mad Max really is driving through town, there will be ample opportunities to get that fully automatic AK.

Ash
 
During the LA Riots, those Korean shop owners, who were without doubt in SHTF, did okay with pump action shotguns. That's SHTF, and that was all they needed. In SHTF, mobs are cowards and will not engage armed opponents. If you are dealing with gang turf wars, then an SKS might be perfect as spray and pray can't compete with aimed fire (and even then, a mosin would probably do okay). But that is still not the same as looters who are targets of opportunity types who don't want to fight. If gangs move into the neighborhood, then you need to evacuate anyway because dying in a brave last stand (or being burned out) is of no value.

Ash
 
Ash said:
During the LA Riots, those Korean shop owners, who were without doubt in SHTF, did okay with pump action shotguns.
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IIRC they had AR-15s. But what they had is moot, the mere fact that they HAD weapons and looked ready to use them made them very uninviting victims.

Even in NO, when a man confronted people talking about looting his genny, two warning shots from his .357 sent them scurrying. According to most internet "gun people" those guys should have executed a human wave attack, because he only had a revolver and 6 (now 4) shots without reloading. Accord to the 'net commandos he shouldn't have had a chance without at LEAST a Glock 17 and 6 33-round magazines.

(All of the above means I agree with you BTW).

I think another thing going for Mosins (any of them) is the cost of the rifle and ammo is so low, you might actually be able to afford the things you'll REALLY need (ways to MAKE fresh water, food, etc). Rather than having a real nice gun and no food, dehydrating to death. The only way to go cheaper than a Mosin is to get a USED rifle in .22 LR or .22 Magnum. No centerfire is cheaper to own or feed, and few are as tough.

I forgot who mentioned it, but Mosins are excellent SHTF rifles as they are. The best reason for a scout mount is so that it can be easily sighted in for the various weights of bullets available. Of course one can also replace the rear sight with a Mojo peep sight and sight in easily that way (for cheaper than a scope and mount).
 
I really fell in love with M-N's when I was living off grid north of here. They were inexpensive, tough as nails and held up extremely well in all weather conditions. I like having one as a SHTF rifle and all-around truck gun. Given the extremely slow recovery from Katrina in one of the nation's most important ports, I'd say after the next nine pointer we'd better be ready to fend for ourselves for at least a month. When things get bad enough going down and shooting some moose in the park is a real option. Ordinarily illegal, but not if it's a matter of life and death. In the middle of January it might be.
 
I have a Mosin M44 and a Finn M39. The Finn is a parts gun although it does have a B barrel on it. Very accurate for a milsurp with surplus ammo. The M44 is very smooth to operate, not as smooth as an Enfield but, nice enough considering the gun and it's lineage.

Take a look at http://www.mosinnagant.net

You can find all sorts of good info for mosins of all shapes and sizes, plus good info on the proper care and feeding of them as well.

According to Jeff Cooper, the idea behind a scout rifle is to purposly limit the capacity of the primary weapon, i.e. a bolt-action rifle, in order to keep the scouts from trying to engage enemy troop formations. The thinking was and is that if they had a high capacity semi auto or automatic they would be tempted to engage. In other words, hide and observe, not shot and scoot. :)

If you were in a position to stockpile or transport large or relatively large amounts of ammo, I'd say go for a Mosin. If you are going to be in tight quarters, that's a different story. I would not want to clear a house with one. Yeah, the Ruskies used them to great effect in WW2, they cleared houses with them, they killed lots of Germans with them, but there are too many other alternatives available if your situation presents that possibility or something similar. I'd go in with a handgun before I tried to use a bolt gun.

The evolution of tactics has changed a lot over the past 65 years. The idea of using a M-4 type long gun is the current doctrine of choice. Once again, yes they did it in the old days, the also taught shooting a handgun with one hand and evaluating your target before shooting it again.

If I had one gun to take on a limited budget, I'd take a M44 or M38 for a long gun. If I had to bail, I would take both of mine, I'd also take my AR. Then again, I'm not planning on having to travel via the shoe leather express to get out. I fully intend to use my truck and trailer.

Best regards,

Wheeler



All things being equal, I would NOT want even a novice shoter taking pot shots at me with a 7.62x54R in ANY format. That is a mean round to be on the receiving end of.
 
Wheeler said:
According to Jeff Cooper, the idea behind a scout rifle is to purposly limit the capacity of the primary weapon, i.e. a bolt-action rifle, in order to keep the scouts from trying to engage enemy troop formations. The thinking was and is that if they had a high capacity semi auto or automatic they would be tempted to engage. In other words, hide and observe, not shot and scoot. :)
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The main reason for the bolt action is that no other repeating action will allow the Scout concept to make the length and weight parameters.
 
Not only that...but hopefully the military would instill enough discipline in their "scouts" to know exactly what their primary function is. Remember...a guy hidden in a bush with a radio can be a lot more deadly than super sniper with a .50 and a lot of ammo.
 
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