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"Most accurate" again in IDPA... help me speed up

Discussion in 'Competition Shooting' started by 1KPerDay, Jul 30, 2017.

  1. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    I hope what I outlined in my posts provided you with time saving drills/options you could use while still maintaining accuracy.

    Like Rob said, if most people's reaction time is around/less than 2/10 of second, what factors allow one shooter to shoot faster than another shooter?

    I hope I covered those factors in my posts.

    Keep us posted with your progress!
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
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  2. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    Reply to a post from another thread that may help you shave more stage time - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/uspsa-stage-breakdowns.840285/#post-10903776

    This is what I did when I first started out shooting USPSA to better navigate stages.

    When I encountered difficult stage setup, I set up mock-up targets in my garage/backyard and practiced engaging targets while focusing on things like footwork, efficiency of body movement, magazine change points etc. (You can easily make mock-up target stands using PVC pipe and connectors). Practicing on mock-up stage at home (especially while reviewing video of stage you had difficulty with) really helps correct mistakes made during a bad stage so you don't repeat the mistake on future stages and shave precious seconds off each stage.

    After I volunteered to help setup/take down targets and spent some time with stage designer, I got a better understanding of how stages are set to better navigate through the stage and I set up increasingly challenging mock-ups at home to practice with.

    What's better is being able to set up your own stage/targets in your shooting area/range to do live fire runs.

    And after a while, you will become more familiar with different types of target setups and how best to engage them.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
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  3. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    waktasz started a new thread "USPSA stage breakdowns" where he does a great job of comparing videos of two shooters and identifying areas where and how stage time is lost - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/uspsa-stage-breakdowns.840285/

    In that thread, 9mmepiphany brought up a key factor in shaving stage time - Stage Planning

    I visualize how I am going to engage the targets in 1st and 3rd person point of view.
    • I get an overview of the stage "map" in 3rd person POV (kinda like mental snapshot)
    • I visualize my first walk-through in 1st person POV (referencing 3rd person POV snapshot)
    • If I identify any difficult areas, I will slow down on subsequent walk-through and zoom-in to work out the detail and zoom-out to get a 3rd person perspective (like watching a video of you running the stage), especially for footwork, body movement, mag change points, etc.
    • Once I worked out difficult areas with shooting solutions, I will continue visualizing how I would engage the targets until I am satisfied
    When the timer goes "beep", you should essentially be executing your stage plan following the "ghost" of you from walk-throughs while anticipating next group of targets and how you planned to engage them.


    ny32182 posted a great approach to stage planning on another thread (while we disagreed on using 3rd person POV, it helped with my visualization. So use whichever POV that works for you) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...hange-split-times.832796/page-2#post-10773365

    "How to approach a stage:

    1) Find all the targets and determine all the required shooting positions. Sounds obvious, but most newbies don't make an actual complete effort to do this.

    2) Come up with your optimal stage plan. (possibly a huge topic on its own, but includes deciding where you are going to shoot targets that are available from multiple places, the order in which you are going to shoot all targets, and deciding on reload placement).

    3) Visualize shooting your plan until it is second nature. Depending on the complexity of the stage, maybe 10+ times. However many times it takes to where every individual action while shooting the stage is fluidly automatic after the previous action. Once the buzzer goes off, you are in more of an observational mode of watching your shooting. You shouldn't have to think. If you are thinking on the clock, something has gone horribly awry, or your visualization was inadequate.

    I can tell you that 100% of my visualization is absolutely first person. Just thinking about 3rd person visualization is making my head hurt. I want detailed first person visualization of everything that is key to that stage, including, but not limited to:

    -Sight picture needed for each shot
    -How the targets will come into view at each position, and where my gun needs to be as that happens
    -Reloads
    -Transitions
    -Any key footwork that must go well on that stage

    If it has to happen for a stage run to be successful, I want it in my visualization."
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
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  4. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    Here's stage walk-through with Rob - He explains how he develops his stage/shooting plan and mag change points. He illustrates how to shave time so he has more time shooting.
    • As you walk through the stage to develop your stage/shooting plan, identify how best to engage the targets and when to do mag changes
    • Change your plan as often as necessary if better plan comes up (like other shooters shooting more efficiently)
    • Have Plan B in case Plan A doesn't work out
    • One tenth here and one tenth there will add up to saving seconds
    • Watch and learn from other shooters shoot difficult parts of stage
    • Watch other shooters shoot and openly share and problem solve with their difficulties and they will return the favor and watch/help you solve your difficulties


    Here's Production vs Open Division walk throughs showing different shooting solutions

     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
  5. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    Here's a stage plan video showing sequence of engaging horizontal targets (Shoot in the order they appear)



    And engaging vertical targets (Bottom to top - ride the recoil up and be able to visualize top targets)



    Shooting behind barricade and magazine change (Shoot and change mag in the direction of movement)

     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
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  6. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    Leaning vs stepping around barricade - Max explains movement and shooting position to shave stage time. At 1:35 minute mark of video, he demonstrates shooting around barricade to shave more than .5 second off "leaning" around barricade by "stepping" around barricade.

    Low shooting position - At 4:10 minute mark of video, he demonstrates "leaning forward" while squatting to shave .25 second.

     
  7. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

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    Report:
    Local IDPA match today; shot Carry Optics for the first time. Placed first in CO, 4th overall. 5 points down. :cuss:
    Still having a hard time mentally getting past the "must be accurate" thing. Match winner (dude who is really fast and always wins, shoots SSP) was 4 PD and 40 seconds ahead after 7 stages.

    Again



    :rofl:


    I actually placed first overall on the skills test... beat the fast guy by a second or so. Most stages I was 8-10 seconds back.
     
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  8. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    Good to hear.

    Remember, it's not important how you performed compared to the "other guy". What's important is whether you are improving.

    Focus away from the "other guy" and focus on yourself.

    If you were a spectator watching yourself shoot, what things would you recommend to improve your stage score? :)

    While I no longer compete, I still run various shooting drills whenever I go shooting to see how I am progressing (or maintaining as I get older ;)). My shooting is now primarily focused on fast close defensive drills but I am training several coworkers and their families and it's nice to demonstrate fast double taps and headshots at various distances both sighted and unsighted (point shooting).

    Training of new shooters incorporate much of what's been discussed in this thread and we have plans to set up our own IDPA/USPSA-like stages for them to run through and put to test what they have been practicing.

    Once a regional match shooter told me on stage practice/match days to clear my head and remove everyone at the range. Then to visualize an empty range with each stage as though I was the only one shooting while chasing a faster ghost of me running through the stage against the timer. Goal was to not only mirror an "optimized and efficient" ghost of me (to reduce mistakes and errors) but to gradually shoot faster than the ghost to improve stage times through mastery of form and techniques (And I will use this to coach my coworkers as they run through our stages to improve accuracy and speed).

    Recently, I took a coworker who bought his first pistol (Glock 34). I showed him the basics of stance, grip, trigger, draw, levels of extension and point shooting techniques. I had him dry fire over 500 times with draw each time (without moving the front sight) prior to our first range session. When he was able to produce 3" groups at 5 yards at multiple targets with his eyes closed, he was mildly surprised. When he saw past the sights and seen holes appear at will anywhere on the target, he got excited. I demonstrated fast double taps and explained it is simply shooting at two targets as fast as possible but the targets happen to be stacked on top of each other (Fast double taps will be focused on our next range trip). After he talked to several coworkers and showed them his targets (Ones he shot with eyes closed), now I have 4 more coworkers who will join us to our next range trip.

    If you are improving your USPSA "game", I believe focusing on mastery of each shooting technique will naturally and eventually increase shooting speed. Then, whether you beat the "other guy" or not becomes less relevant. And in time, perhaps you will become the "other guy" and others will wonder how you can shoot so fast while being accurate. ;)

    Keep up the great work! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
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  9. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    When my coworker tried to shoot faster, I emphasized it was more important for him to master each technique as speed will follow after consistency of movement.

    Before our first range session, I demonstrated this with a long pen laser pointer (with button on the side) while holding it like a pistol. I was able to repeatedly point the laser dot at various targets (light switch, small objects around the office and down the halls) within one inch. I told him, point shooting is simply doing the same with a pistol while pressing the trigger (and not moving the front sight/muzzle). And if our movement/technique is consistent, bullet holes should appear within one inch of our point of aim (POA).

    When he initially started shooting at 5 yard targets with eyes closed (draw with each shot) for "natural point of aim", I told him to focus on the POA (a bingo dauber dot) and "allow" his body to consistently repeat the movements to "synch" POI with POA. And once POI was synched with POA, he should be able to aim at any target and consistently hit with proximity. And as he repeatedly produced 3" groups at multiple targets with his eyes closed, he was convinced. Once convinced and confident his body was able to produce POI close to POA, we proceeded to do sighted shooting but with focus past the front sight and on the targets.

    As he saw holes "appear" around POA, he then proceeded to produce holes at will anywhere on the target at 5 yards. I told him to not worry about speed for now and focus on the consistency of POI on POA as we work to increase range to 7/10/15 yards. I told him as distance to target increased, he could spend more time to verify alignment of front sight to POA but it would be continuous front sight superimposed on POA. During our 2 hour shooting session, I had him go back to shooting with eyes closed to verify "natural point of aim" and "synch" between POA and POI several times. If POI began to deviate from POA, I told him to practice until POI returned to POA.

    What he told me was until he saw unsighted and sighted shooting demonstrated and actualized on target, he had doubts. Once he was convinced his body was able to repeatedly produce holes on different targets from draw, he began to "believe" he could consistently produce holes on POA. Then once he opened his eyes and shot past the front sight, producing holes on POA was much easier.

    He was shocked and blown away as this was his first pistol purchase and essentially a new shooter.

    BTW, he moved from San Jose and voted lifelong Democrat. He will now be voting to support Second Amendment until he dies. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
     
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  10. MrChicken

    MrChicken Member

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    My 2 cents to add to the good advice given. Determine your accuracy for a given distance and shoot to that.
    Ex: if you can reliably shoot a 1/2 inch group at 3 yards, when at 3 yards stop aiming for the center of 0 down and shoot as soon as your sights fall anywhere within 1/2 inch of the outer edge of the 0 down zone.
    A hit on the edge of the 0 down counts the same as perfectly centered hit.
     
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  11. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

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    Forgot to mention that it was a zombie themed match with all headshots. So that sort of emphasized accuracy over speed further. But as noted the fast guy was still able to shoot both faster AND more accurately. I'm mostly comparing my performance to my previous performance. I definitely FEEL myself fighting against the need to go faster. I also had to slow down when one of my RMR screws came loose and the dot started to flicker. Luckily that was on the last stage of the day and the targets were close enough I could get good hits with the irons. Took me a few seconds to figure out what was going on.

    But bottom line is I still feel compulsive about getting down zero. I'll spend 3 seconds going back to make up a down one. Lots to work on. Thanks again for all the excellent advice!
     
  12. LookingIntently

    LookingIntently Member

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    How would you modify this approach (I read your previous post also, about covering the front sight) to apply to using a red dot?

    Thanks
     
  13. LookingIntently

    LookingIntently Member

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    Just finished reading through this whole thread (and watching every video). Feel like I just had a great class! Thanks so much for so much great info!
     
  14. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

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    Update: not an IDPA match though. UPL handgun with all steel targets. I placed first in Carry Optics and won 5 of 6 stages. They had one stage with draw/fire one shot (first string), draw/fire 2 shots, etc. and my draw to first shot on target was 1.01 which is good for me. I still need to work on being confident calling shots and not waiting to hear the steel ring (for IDPA on paper targets).
     
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  15. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    You are very welcome. Hope the information posted helps you shoot faster and more accurate.

    I never competed with red dot so I can't help you there.
     
  16. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    Nice. Looks like you are improving.

    Have you tried point shooting with eyes closed?

    I have trained several more coworkers since this thread got started and at 5 yards with eyes closed, they are producing around 3" groups to synchronize natural POA with POI. Once synchronization is done, with eyes open (but not using the pistol sights) they are able to point shoot and place shots anywhere on the target at 7-15 yards within 2-3 sessions.

    This exercise should help you speed up and increase accuracy of your shot calling.
     
  17. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

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    No. I need to try that.
     
  18. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

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    Finally got a shot timer and ran some baseline drills. Draw from holster to first shot to down zero at 4 yards with Glock 23 takes me about 1.2-1.3 seconds if I want to guarantee a good hit. At three yards I can get .97-1.02 with good hits, and at .87 I throw them wide fairly often. I am not getting a solid flash sight picture soon enough and there are inconsistencies in my draw stroke. I need to slow it down and get it exactly right every time and then work on speed.

    I ran three "the test" drills (10 shots, 10 yards, ten seconds, from holster on b8 bullseye, either all in the black or 90 points to pass depending on whether you adhere to the Vickers or Hackathorne variant). First cold drill with M&P CORE was 6.67 with 2 in the 8 and 2 in the 10/x, next was 7.45 with all 9s and 10s, and last was 8.65 with mostly 10s.

    So I have a baseline to work from. My draw feels frantic and wobbly when I'm trying to really get speed.
     
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  19. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator Staff Member

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  20. thomas15

    thomas15 Member

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    Awesome! Keep it up your headed in the right direction. Stay with it brother and you will really enjoy the upcoming season.

    Today I braved the cold (in my garage) and spent some time at my gun bench doing a few things that I have been putting off. A major project completed....

    I removed a Burris FF3 from my Steel Challenge open rifle (a S&W M-P AR15-22) and replaced it with a C-MORE Railway 8 MOA. This is on top of a 3/4 riser.

    Next I removed a rear sight (Dawson Precision) from my G17, installed a EGW dovetail mount and mounted the FF3 on the Glock. This is going to be my carry optics gun. I did a little bit of dry fire with the G17 and so far so good. I need to take both guns out and sight them in, I'm prolly going to do the G17 tomorrow as long as it doesn't snow tonight. First time using a sight pusher. Worked ok but I did put a small burr in the CO mount and will need to touch up the slide with a black bluing pen tomorrow. But the optic is on and seems solid.
     
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  21. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

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    That's awesome. Something to shoot for for sure. I can't even draw and shoot from the hip in .7, let alone a headshot at 10 yards. I noticed that because I'm left eye dominant the gun kind of weaves left/right as I'm pushing out toward final position. Made me wonder if I should try to switch to left hand dominant shooting. I really don't want to have to do that. :D
     
  22. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator Staff Member

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    There's a funny story...from back in the day:

    Robbie Leatham is left handed, but he's right eye dominate...so he taught himself to shoot right handed

    I took a CBQ class once where we started with 2 shots to the body while side stepping on the draw in 1.5 seconds; reacting to a turning target...granted we were only 3 yards away. I was pretty happy to be able to do it by the third day. Then the instructor told us that to graduate we'd have to do it in 1 second. The big improvement came from learning to react to the target and getting a "good enough" grip on the draw...it wasn't target shooting, it was gun fighting
     
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  23. sbwaters
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    sbwaters Contributing Member

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    Yay for the shot timer. I like four shot practices, using two targets, two bullets per target. That gives me:
    1) Draw time to first shot.
    2) Split times between 1 & 2 on the first target and 3 & 4 on the second target.
    3) Time between first target and first shot on second target.

    A wealth of useful information.

    Early on I found, for IDPA, that moving my holster in my belt just a bit forward resulted in a faster, more consistent draw.

    A safety officer also gave me the hint, don’t verify your first shot on a target before shooting the second shot. Learn to trust yourself for the second shot.
    After each four round string, learn what you need to know about where your hits landed on the targets.
     
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  24. thomas15

    thomas15 Member

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    Good stuff.

    I generally get a good grip but on the times when my grip sucks I have found that I can salvage the run by putting a real effort into the weak supporting hand. For me at least it seems that a bad grip results in shots low.
     
  25. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

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    Did 15 minutes of draw/fire one dry fire drills from the holster with P226 last night and set a reminder to do it every day. Hopefully I can get down to reliable draws to first accurate shot around 1 second or less in match conditions. It seems like I'm there in dry fire but you never know how the match will affect you.
     
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