Most authentic SAA clone?

[Cowhide Cliff]

No Uberti still does not have a bushing. I think Pietta does. Personally I have fired thousands of rounds through Uberti's and never had it be an issue so I'm yet to see why they even need the bushing.

What actually causes the peening.

 

[StrawHat]

...What actually causes the peening...

Dry firing.

Kevin

 

[35 Whelen]

Dry firing and maybe a misfitted hammer? To me the face of the hammer should contact the frame stopping forward motion instead of the firing pin bottoming out in its relief in the rear of the frame. Seems to me if the hammer operated in this manner, a hardened bushing wouldn't be necessary.
Like Cliff, I've fired at least a couple thousand non-CAS rounds through one of my Uberti's, and it was well used when I bought it. Not a single problem.

35W

 

[bannockburn]

Since we have quite a few knowledgeable people on here in regards to the SAA I'm curious as to how the EMF (ASM) Hartford Model measures up as being a fairly close copy of the Colt SAA.

 

[BobWright]

As to cratering, I experienced that with a 1975 vintage Uberti Cattleman .44 Magnum. After about 200 rounds of firing, the firing pin cratered the frame where it passed through. the result was primers flowed around the crater and bound up cylinder rotation.

I stoned the crater back down flush with the frame, and after a couple of stonings, the problem went away.

The front sight was way too short, however, and rather than invest in better sights, I traded the gun.

This with an old Iver Johnson import.

Bob Wright

P.S. I have recently bought a Cimarron Model P in .44 Special, by Uberti, and it still lacks the firing pin bushing (recoil plate) but have experienced no problem after about 700 rounds fired.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

I have heard that dry firing causes cratering or peening of the firing pin hole in a revolver for years, and I don't buy it. I never dry fire a firearm. So why would I have experienced peening of the firing pin hole?

Here is why peening occurs. The firing pin is a hardened piece of steel, harder than the steel the frame is made of. With a Colt style single action revolver, the firing pin is pinned in the hammer, but it is able to swivel slightly up and down. That is done on purpose. The hole in the frame for the firing pin is conical in shape. The firing pin actually 'finds its way' through the hole. It rubs the surface of the hole as it travels though. As the firing pin rubs the surface of the hole it can upset the softer metal of the frame, and raise a burr where the hole emerges through the frame. It has nothing to do with how the hammer bottoms against the frame. Drop the hammer many times, and a burr can be raised. That is why Colt presses a hardened bushing into the frame, to prevent a burr from rising. But it is an extra piece and an extra operation, so it costs money.

Bob Wright has actually alluded to this in his post. Notice a burr was raised, which he stoned down more than once to level it with the frame. I have done the same thing on a couple of Uberti revolvers, using a fine file to flatten the burr, only to have it rise again. On one revolver the burr was so bad that it was scratching the primers of live ammunition and bound up the gun. Pretty scary. My solution was to create a slight counter sink around the hole, so any burr that was raised would remain in the countersink and not rise above the surface. I eventually got rid of the gun with the really bad burr problem, a Cimerron Uberti, the one with the bad trigger pull and the crooked front sight. I kept the other one, but I hardly ever shoot it any more.

You guys who think you don't have a burr on your Uberti revolvers, run your fingernail over the hole. I'll bet you a donut your fingernail catches on a burr. It just hasn't risen enough to cause a problem yet.

Smith and Wesson presses a hardened bushing into the frame of their revolvers too. At least they did back when firing pins were still hammer mounted.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

Well I have heard of the firing pin peening but if it's going to happen I would think it would have happened on at least two of mine. I've got seven Cimarron model P revolvers and considering a couple of them that I shoot at CAS matches have probably had thousands of rounds through them, I just inspected them and the firing pin hole feels no different than any of the others including two that have never been fired so I'm not seeing a problem.

Maybe I just got lucky on mine because I, even thought I shouldn't, even dry fire them occasionally.

It is something I will certainly keep an eye on in the future though.

 

[35 Whelen]

I have a Uberti Cattleman I bought well used; bright turn line, broken bolt/trigger spring, screws all boogered and bluing worn from the left side of the muzzle from running in and out of a holster. The metal around the firing pin hole protrudes slightly, not peened, just almost undetectably bulged out, and it's so slight that the revolver has to be held just so in the light in order to see it. But, I bought the revolver for $200 OTD and put a $6 spring in it. So if/when it starts causing me problems, I'll have to decide whether to pay myself $1200-$1300 to repair it, or just throw it away and buy another.

My Model P, several CAS matches and and a couple hundred working up hunting loads and not the slightest indication. Same for my wife's pair of Hombre's, a few CAS matches and no indication.

The real surprise was my old 4 3/4" .44 Special. It's a (going from memory) '97 production Uberti made for Cabela's. I bought it as a 44-40 and someone had run this revolver hard, I'd bet in competition. The bolt had been modified and thinned considerably, the bolt cam modified and the safety notch removed from the hammer. I fitted a .44 Special cylinder and used it in several CAS matches but have easily and conservatively fired 2500 rounds through it, and God only knows how many were fired through it by the previous owner. Not the slightest trace of peening.

It's hard for me to imagine how a pivoting firing pin could peen the firing pin hole. I looked carefully at all six of my Uberti revolvers and on each one the nose of the firing pin had already cleared the opening of the firing pin hole before the pin pivoted in the hammer. The oldest I just mentioned didn't appear to strike the side(s) of the firing pin hole at all.

I guess Colt installed the hardened bushings so they didn't have to bother with ensuring the firing pins would line up with the firing pin holes.

35W

 

[Bama Drifter]

dry fire + quality gun = no probs

AFAIK, there is NO reason to not dry fire practice with a quality centerfire gun. Unless you are talking OLD collectible shotguns. YMMV.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I guess Colt installed the hardened bushings so they didn't have to bother with ensuring the firing pins would line up with the firing pin holes.

I have been trying to keep this discussion on a respectful level without making snide remarks.

Allow me to quote from Jerry Kuhnhausen (who has probably forgotten more than I will ever know about Colts) in his Colt Single Action Revolvers Shop Manual. He refers to the part in question as the Recoil Plate.

"S.A.A. Recoil Plate notes:
1. Although S.A.A. recoil plates were made in .001 increment oversizes, most are in the range illustrated above*.
2. Early recoil plates were made from early and transitional carbon steels.
3. Intermediate through late recoil plates were made from 1060~1080 steels to increase durability and resistance from firing pin wear.
4. Intermediate~late S.A.A. recoil plate hardness is approx. RC50.
5. Adjust replacement plate thickness to frame recess depth before installation and final crimping."

* the measurements illustrated are .085-.095. The red highlighting is my own.


All primers back out of the primer pocket as a round is fired. Then as the round slams back against the frame in recoil the primer is reseated.

Here is a photo of where the firing pin protrudes through the frame of my 1880s era Merwin Hulbert Pocket Army 2nd Model. Notice there is no bushing protecting the soft metal of the frame. Notice the cratering around the hole caused by primers backing out as they fire and slamming into the frame. Notice the peening of the frame near the top of the firing pin. This is what Bob Wright observed when he saw cratering.






Here is the frame of a S&W New Model #3 made in 1882. Notice it has a hardened bushing surrounding the firing pin. Notice there is no peening or cratering.




Smith and Wesson and Colt pressed in bushings like this for over 100 years. Do you really think they would have continued doing so if it was unnecessary? Nobody pinched pennies like Daniel Wesson did.

It's what I have been saying all along. Time is money. Uberti makes some very nice revolvers. But they take some shortcuts to save money.

 

[35 Whelen]

I have been trying to keep this discussion on a respectful level without making snide remarks.

It was a joke as denoted by the emoticon at the end of the statement. Relax. Don't take everything personally.

This is an interesting, informative discussion so let's not turn it into single action snobbery.

Some of us prefer form, others of us prefer function.

35W

 

[CraigC]

IMHO, Colt's and USFA's are without doubt better made firearms than any of the Italian replicas. This is in regards to everything from fit & finish to materials used to machining and accuracy. With the stipulation that USFA's are head and shoulders above Colt, who still can't get their .45's right. That doesn't keep me from loving them all. It's not snobbery, it's the truth. If it was snobbery, I wouldn't own ten times as many Italian replicas as Colt's.