Most effective short barreled big game stopper

[squarepants33889]

I was drooling over the Sako bears series of rifles and got to thinking about the available barrel lengths vs caliber options.
The question that came to mind is, what do y'all think are some of the most powerful short barreled hunting rifle cartridge options?
For example, the handy .308 Winchester options in 20'' looked nice, but the .300 and .338 Win Mag require longer barrels to achieve optimum utility from the cartridge.
If you were bear hunting in heavy brush and wanted to use a bolt action rifle, what would some of "heavier" options be that don't sacrifice a tremendous amount of function from short barrels?

 

[troy fairweather]

7-08 and 308 do pretty well with short barrels, 35 rem does well to. A 20-22" 9.3 or 375 would be nice for big bear and the game you maybe hunting up there anyways.

 

[mcb]

450 Bushmaster does pretty good in a short barrel and is available in a 16-inch barrel bolt gun.

 

[Zak Smith]

The less "overbore" a cartridge is, the better it will perform in a short barrel length compared to the same cartridge in a longer barrel length, compared to a cartridge that is more overbore.

That's why 300 Blackout full power loads gain very little velocity going from say a 10" to a 16"; compared to say 556 or 308.

In general you are looking at a large caliber vs. the case capacity, for example 45-70, 450 Bushmaster (as mentioned by mcb), 338-08 would perform better relative to a longer barrel length than 308, etc.

 

[squarepants33889]

7-08 and 308 do pretty well with short barrels, 35 rem does well to. A 20-22" 9.3 or 375 would be nice for big bear and the game you maybe hunting up there anyways.

I do like the idea of heavy 7-08 loads. Makes for a pretty versatile rifle.

 

[squarepants33889]

450 Bushmaster does pretty good in a short barrel and is available in a 16-inch barrel bolt gun.

Like a Ruger ranch rifle or the like.

 

[Roverguy]

Shorter barrel generally means diminished velocity. If you can’t have speed, have mass. That means old school, or old school tech. 250 grs + at 1800 fps +.

 

[LoonWulf]

458 Socom would drive 300s at 1850 from a 16", and 405s at 1600. This from my AR

Give me a full size bolt gun and id bet I could get another 200fps +/- out of it....just ran the numbers in QL and theoretically, you could get a 500gr to 1750 from a 20"

.Ran the number on the 450 bushmaster and Id expect to be able to get 2000-2100 with a 300gr XTP from a 16" barrel.

This is also running a pressure number that exceeds the stock pressures by 15K or so.



Personally, my shortest barrel is a 22" 7-08, and it churns out pretty impressive velocities. My 23" .375 Ruger also turns some impressive numbers. I quite honeslty dont think Id want to go much shorter on a hunting rifle unless running a suppressor, I just dont see much of an advantage in lopping off 2" and much shorter than that and it gets pretty blasty.

 

[jmr40]

Cartridges like 308 are more EFFICIENT from shorter barrels. But magnums start with more speed and will still have more speed even from short barrels. Other than noise it makes more sense to use a short barreled magnum than worry about efficiency if you're wanting speed and a compact rifle.

Ruger offered a version of their Hawkeye in 300 WSM as well as the 300 RCM briefly with a 16" barrel. Even with that short barrel it got more speed than 308 from a 24" barrel. The 308 loses LESS speed from 24" down to 16", but since the 300WSM started with a lot more, it will end up with a lot more if both are at 16".

BUT... If you're talking about large animals at close range a lot of velocity isn't important. In fact it can be a negative. What you want is penetration and impact speed often reduces penetration. You want a bullet with a high sectional density which means heavy for caliber. And some bullets have earned a reputation for deep penetration in game. The Nosler Partition all things being equal has earned a reputation as one of the best.

Caliber isn't that important, in fact large calibers limit penetration. Bullets that are LONG in relation to diameter penetrate more. A 175 gr bullet fired from a 7mm cartridge at moderate velocity is a good choice. In 30 caliber a 200-220 gr bullet is pretty much the king of penetration. My personal pick would be either a 308 with 200 gr Partitions or a 30-06 with 220 gr Partitions. But any 7mm cartridge firing 175 gr bullets would be right there too.

If you move up to larger calibers you'd need a 250 gr 33 caliber bullet just to match either a 175 gr 7mm bullet or a 200 gr 30 caliber bullet. The 220 from a 30-06 or 300 magnum will out penetrate a 338 WM or 35 Whelen firing 250 gr bullets. If you want to start moving up to the really big boys you'd need 300 gr bullets from a 375 and 500 gr bullets from anything 45 caliber to do better than a 200 or 220 from a 30 caliber or 175's from a 7mm.

The small 45 caliber rifles like 458 BM, won't handle bullets heavy enough to give enough penetration for larger bear. They might be OK on smaller black bear. But wouldn't be on my radar for a dedicated bear in the brush gun. In fact even the 45-70 is highly over rated for this for the same reason.

 

[Chuck R.]

There were several cartridges designed to do what you're after and I'd also gravitate towards a short action.

Two that come to mind are the 35 Sambar (.35-WSM) and the .350RM. I prefer the .350RM. Out of my 20" barreled M7 I get 2730 with the 225s and 2500+ with the .250s. Both will leave a mark. I've never recovered a 225 Partition regardless of it's SD. The 35 Sambar out of a shorter barrel is even more impressive. Another one I'd take a hard look at the the 325WSM. The other benefit to these type cartridges is that they are 300+ yard capable if need be.

Honestly I no longer put much stock in a bullets SD as it doesn't factor in either the effect of bullet construction nor the bullets frontal diameter and expanded diameter. All of which have an effect on the killing capability of the bullet. Back in the day when all bullets were cup and core, sweating SD as the ultimate factor in penetration made sense. IMHO, those days are long gone as the bullets construction now varies greatly depending on the task it's designed to do.

Doubt it? Just compare the penetration of monolithic bullets, to cup and core, even when the cup/core has a higher SD, due to SD being such a simple equation. I'd probably sweat SD more IF I was shooting solids...which I'm not anytime soon.

Here's just one counter discussion:

https://www.fieldandstream.com/guns/sectional-density-bullet-penetration-truths/

First, let’s define the term: SD is the ratio of a bullet’s weight to its diameter. It’s calculated by dividing the bullet’s weight in grains by 7,000, which gives you it’s grains per pound, and then dividing that by the bullet’s diameter, squared. With solids or bullets that do not deform, SD can be representative of penetration. But here’s the key: Most of us use bullets that do deform, and with these projectiles, the SD of the unfired bullet means very little. Rather, it’s the SD of the mushroomed bullet (which isn’t given in catalogs or much talked about) that truly influences penetration.

More practically, let’s look at two bullets commonly used in the .30/30 Winchester. A 150-grain .30-caliber Barnes Flat-Nose Triple Shock has the same SD as a 150-grain .30-caliber Winchester Power Point. If the SD of the unfired bullet was such a good indicator of penetration, these bullets would penetrate to the same depth. But they don’t.

The Barnes bullet deforms with a frontal diameter of 0.600 and has a recovered weight of 150 grains. The Power Point bullet deforms with a frontal diameter of 0.634 and has a recovered weight of 134 grains. Impacting at the same velocity, the Barnes bullet will penetrate about 20 percent deeper. It’s not the SD of the unfired bullet that influences penetration, it is the terminal sectional density (TSD) of the deformed/expanded bullet that matters. The Barnes bullet has a TSD of 0.060 as compared to the Power Point’s TSD of 0.048.

Another good article along the same lines:

https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/amm...od-measure-of-a-bullets-penetration-potential

A thing that's always puzzled me about rifle guys is that they often ignore frontal diameter and even more importantly expanded diameter and it's effect on the wound channel. Meanwhile the handgun guys are usually all over it. It might be because handguns lacking the velocity of rifle cartridges rely on lacerating/crushing and the permanent wound channel in terminal ballistics.

 

[FL-NC]

The short range nature of what you described makes the MV loss of a shorter-than-typical barrel irrelevant, IMO. Sure, rounds like 450 BM etc. make sense for such an application, but it seems to be such a round would be a 1 trick pony (or close to it) since it would be difficult for me to find any other application for it. Black bears aren't as hard to kill as many people think, any more than a wild pig or a white tail. I would consider a light sporter in 308 (like a RAR standard) with the illuminated reticle scope dialed all the way down in the area of 3x or 4x, or even a lever carbine in 30-30. Either rifle would do the job you describe and be useful for many other species and techniques of hunting. Even a shotgun that throws slugs accurately or a decent buckshot pattern should do fine, assuming buckshot is legal in your area. Also, a 308 from a short barrel without a suppressor is pretty noisy to me.

 

[mavracer]

Like a Ruger ranch rifle or the like.

That's one of the first that came to mind a Ruger American Ranch in 450 BM next was the old 660 Remington in 350 Rem Mag.
I'd rather just have my 450 AR if legal or go Lever gun with my 348 Browning M71 or Marlin 45/70.

 

[3Crows]

Nah, none of those little BB guns . Go big bore or go home, 1895 SBL in .45-70 Government, the only Government you can trust:



These new mono-metal bullets up to 500 grains of weight ought to stop a charging Buick and not one of those dainty jello mold ones Government Motors makes now but the ones like your grandma had that weighed 6000 pounds and had a cast iron block V8 engine.

3C

 

[d2wing]

I like my 7-08 as a great deer rifle and all around use. If I was to face Alaska bears, the 30-06 is the recommended cartridge by Alaska DNR. Probably with heavy bullets. But since that will never happen I will stick with my Tikka in 7-08. It's plenty for everything in the lower 48. Or one could move up tp a 30-06 or 7 MM RM. So called brush buster cartridges do work at close range but not nearly as effective. I do like the .35 Remington and 30-30 in light short rifles for sneaking through brush.
A 308 is a good option for anything in the lower 48 and has more options for bullet selection than any other except the 30-06 which can handle even heavier bullets. SAKO is a great choice in rifles.
What kind of bears are you thinking of? Placing the shot is far more important than what you shoot with. Hunting them isn't very dangerous, what's dangerous is if they are hunting you.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

20" 350RemMag with 300 grain bullets. I don't know what's in the .358" bullet selection these days, I still have most of a box of old Barnes copper-tube jacketed 300 grainers, which I think would also stop that Buick. (maybe not a Chrysler Imperial)

 

[d2wing]

No SAKO makes a real Buick stopper, Brown bear 500 Jeffrey. 30-06 is the only Gov cartridge that makes the top rank of Brown bear stoppers. 45-70 is as it should be way down the list. Cowboy dreams or not. Reminds me of the TV shows where guys are blown backwards when being shot. That's not how it works.

 

[Varminterror]

the .300 and .338 Win Mag require longer barrels to achieve optimum utility from the cartridge.

Um… nah, bro…

 

[.308 Norma]

.45-70 Government, the only Government you can trust:

 

[bluetopper]

45-70 or 444 Marlin, or 500 S&W out of a short rifle.

 

[Varminterror]

A guy can do a hell of a lot of work with big cases in short barrels… case in point, @xphunter behind a 375 Cheytac specialty pistol sending rounds past 2000 yards…

 

[NMachine]

If you were bear hunting in heavy brush and wanted to use a bolt action rifle, what would some of "heavier" options be that don't sacrifice a tremendous amount of function from short barrels?

2000 Yards? Hell, I thought we were talking short barrel-short range bear stoppers. This derailed rather quickly.

 

[3Crows]

I see .30-06 Springfield topping out around 3100 fpe and a TKO of 34 and the .45-70 Government reaching upwards of 3500 fpe (max loads for lever gun can approach 4000 fpe) and a TKO of 54.

All in fun, not going to get into a wrassling match over which gun is more powerfuller . And though the OP did not specify a bolt gun in the thread title he did in his post so that disqualifies the lever gun.

3C

 

[earlthegoat2]

The most compelling arguments for sectional density I have ever heard were strictly confined to the arena of solids on thick skinned very large game. This is the only arena in which I believe sectional density arguments really make sense anymore.

I would be more than happy with a 450 BM in that scenario. Mostly because I have great amounts of experience with the cartridge, the different bullets it uses, and the rifles it is chambered in. Someone else may be better served by a 6.5 and it’s superior sectional density.

When a bullet gets big enough, it’s diameter begins to matter more and more. Big bullets cause big holes. Big holes cause big wounds. Big wounds kill game faster. If the cartridge and bullet are capable of penetrating to vital organs from any angle on the target species, penetration arguments break down fast. It won’t matter if you are using a 243, 308, 450 BM, or 458 Lott.

Big rifles and bullets work better for headshots. That is really where TKO comes into play.

 

[MachIVshooter]

The less "overbore" a cartridge is, the better it will perform in a short barrel length compared to the same cartridge in a longer barrel length, compared to a cartridge that is more overbore.

This.

.308 actually does quite well from 16-18" barrels with light to mid weight bullets for most practical hunting purposes, but a cartridge with a lower powder charge to bore area ratio will do even better.

Of course, we're comparing velocity loss relative to optimal (or at least typical) 22", 24" or 26" barrels, so while the .300 win mag will lose significantly more velocity than .308 going from 24" to 18", it's still a more potent round to begin with and will remain so in the shorter barrels, albeit with significantly greater muzzle blast. Something to keep in mind.

I happen to really like the .350 Rem Mag for a short-ish barreled big game gun. It squeezes most of its performance out in a ~20" barrel and is a sledgehammer at short to medium range.

On that note, however, it's unnecessarily powerful for game like deer, so something more sedate might be a better choice. I like 7mm-08, but also relatively weak (by modern standards) cartridges like the .25-35 and .25 Rem for short range mule deer harvesting.

Anyway, without drifting too far off topic, consider that powder charge to bore area ratio and think of the .308 at 18" barrel velocity as a good metric. If the round has a higher ratio, you really need more barrel. If it's lower, it will do decent at or below that length.

 

[P Flados]

Almost all of the "standard" bottle neck rounds for bolt action rifles really are optimized for longer barrels.

For bear hunting in the brush, the really short guns (16" to 18" barrels) make a lot of sense. For this, you are going to be better off with something at east 35 caliber.

At the distances of concern, 35 caliber cartridges really do not need any more power than the 35 Rem or the 350 Legend.

Although there are a number of good choices bigger than 35 caliber, many are mostly lever gun rounds with the 444 and the 45-70 up near the top end for power. The 450 Bushmaster and 458 Socom are the obvious choices for bolt action guns.

If you do go with a bolt action and you want to shoot it for more than just hunting trips, the 350 Legend is going to let you shoot more for your ammo dollar and it will probably be more enjoyable.