Most powerful reasonable caliber?
- Thread starter sbaker10
- Start date
- Status
Fleetman
Member
I shoot a .458 Lott and use .458 Win Mags as plinkers....I much prefer the recoil of a Lott to my .338 Win Mag and several of the other fast mid-bores. Truly punishing is my .30-378.
I would have to go along with the 35 Whelen guys.I got one 2 weeks ago,and shot a few load development groups with it today.225 Sierra's were turning all but 2700 FPS on the chrono,and were in the 1 to 1.5 inch range for 5 shots.It's a 700 Classic,but I put the pretty wood stock in the box and installed a synthetic that has the weight at 7 lbs,12 ounces.I was mighty grateful for a Leupold with plenty of eye relief.I also have a 300 Win mag,but it's recoil is not as heavy as the Whelen's by a good margin.I wouldn't want to do 100 plus rounds in an afternoon with either.Bigger calibers,heavier bullets are for sure harder to master than more mild ones.It takes a lot of skill and concentration to handle them well.As far as power,there's not too much that a 308 can't handle.The last whitetail I shot with mine couldn't have died faster if it was struck by lightning,and it was at 450 yards according to the rangefinder.But the next one's gonna be with the Whelen.Kudos to you guys who can hang on to the 458's,505's,etc.I have shot a lot in my years,and i don't know about handling the real big rounds.Maybe I need to eat some more taters n beans.
Russian Hammer
Member
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2013
- Messages
- 66
I agree with this, I find a 300 weatherby fairly unpleasant to shoot, but the 458 Lott isn't painful at all and very enjoyable. I noticed a lot of people new to big bores will let the gun jump up and slap them in the face, contributing to their dislike of large calibers.
d2wing
Member
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2008
- Messages
- 6,419
30-06 anything else is a pretender. .308 is a choice but almost as good isn't as good. 7MM is near perfect but more expensive to shoot. The 45-70 is pointless. That was proved over 100 years ago. The battle of San Juan hill was the last time the military made the mistake of useing inferior slower cartridges . According to the Alaska DNR the most effective round other than 3 or 4 huge bone crusher magnums, against Brown bears is the 30-06. 308 was way down the list and the 45-70 was way below that. Nothing says lack of power and range than a black powder cartridge.
RPRNY
Member
Yeah, the 45-70 is pointless. Imagine trying to hunt like, I don't know, maybe buffalo, with such a useless cartridge. It would never work.
MachIVshooter
Member
Did I say I don't like to shoot big boomers? Did I say they hurt me? I think not. I simply said that I can't shoot them with the same degree of accuracy as a lighter recoiling rifle for the simple reason that they require more muscle tension to deal with the recoil.
Have you ever fired a 7 pound .375 Ultra Mag with a scope? With my handloads, it comes back at 26 FPS with 82 ft/lbs of recoil-roughly four times that of a .30-06. Yeah, I can handle it. But I can't (nor can any other normal human being) settle into it and focus on breathing and trigger squeeze like you do with a smaller cartridge when you have that kind of energy coming back at you with a small metal ring aimed directly at your ocular socket. If you do, you're gonna get cut, maybe worse.
Your remarks suggest to me that you have limited experience behind heavy recoiling guns and fancy yourself tougher than the rest. I'll let you in on a little secret: There are a lot of members here with a whole lot of trigger time behind dangerous game rifles, many of them a lot more than I have. I promise you that we're all chuckling at anyone who claims they can shoot a firearm with severe recoil as well as one with light to moderate.
The offer is open; I will supply the range, the rifles and the ammo. If you can group as well with the .375 RUM as something .30-06 or less under the same shooting conditions (and not a lead sled or other recoil mitigating device), I will give you crisp $100 bill. Fail, you pay for the ammo consumed and start a thread here admitting it.
Nom de Forum
Member
Yaaaa, the 45-70 is pointless......
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/luposafaris1.html
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/luposafaris2.html
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/luposafaris3.html
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/luposafaris4.html
Only a small sampling of the 45-70's pointlessness.
Last edited:
Nom de Forum
Member
Why not start with the largest and most versatile classic you could reasonably be expected to handle well. Get a .375 H&H with a stock that fits you well and a good recoil pad. You will not enjoy shooting it from prone but every other position will be fine.
To me, it quickly comes down to .308 and 30-06. From a lot of parameters:
Balance between range and cost
Balance between capability and availability
Balance between recoil and energy
And so on.
And for me, and I suspect many others, if you compare the two remaining rounds, .308 would come out on top.
It's just simple, reasonably priced, widely available, lots of assistance if you reload, modest recoil in many/most long guns.
There are many cases where it's not the right or best choice but it's a fine choice in so many instances that it's my choice in this class of cartridge.
After going with the .308 and using it some, if you find many cases where it just seems inappropriate, then you'll know what else to buy. But I doubt you'd ever dump the .308 system.
Now jumping a level (or a few levels) the .338 Lapua is quite interesting, but it fails in many of the 'balanced' parameters test. Many
And to be honest, my knowledge of the Lapua systems is book learning only. But hey, one can dream!
B
Balance between range and cost
Balance between capability and availability
Balance between recoil and energy
And so on.
And for me, and I suspect many others, if you compare the two remaining rounds, .308 would come out on top.
It's just simple, reasonably priced, widely available, lots of assistance if you reload, modest recoil in many/most long guns.
There are many cases where it's not the right or best choice but it's a fine choice in so many instances that it's my choice in this class of cartridge.
After going with the .308 and using it some, if you find many cases where it just seems inappropriate, then you'll know what else to buy. But I doubt you'd ever dump the .308 system.
Now jumping a level (or a few levels) the .338 Lapua is quite interesting, but it fails in many of the 'balanced' parameters test. Many
And to be honest, my knowledge of the Lapua systems is book learning only. But hey, one can dream!B
Nom de Forum
Member
Hot damn! Sounds like great masochistic fun! I'd give you a crisp $100 bill just to let me try if we are talking 3 shot groups from prone unsupported and I can start with the .375 RUM. I think I could do it under those conditions. I have every confidence that after shooting the .375 RUM my brain would be so rattled I'd flinch so much my .30-06 groups would open up enough to win back my $100.
Andrew Leigh
Member
Hmmm I think that in general you may be correct but let me say that owning a .375 has made me a better shooter. It has taught me to be more circumspect with shooting position and grip.
I regularly bench 30 rounds with max loads. As I approach 25 rounds I start feeling fatigued and the fun wanes a little. Now only take 20 odd to the range
Strangely I developed a flinch with the 30-06 some years ago, the .375 I don't flinch and thought that I had solved my flinch problems. Well it turn out that I still flinch with the 30-06, the mind is a powerful thing. My flinch is not associated to recoil but to rifle for some odd reason.
You can shoot heavy calibres well. Here is a 7mm group at 100m or .24MOA. 300gr. Accubonds at 2 500fps.
Back to the OP.
Cost is relative but I think that a 9.3mm fits the bill. A nice heavy hitting cartridge that shoots well, has managable recoil for it's punch and is a joy to shoot.
I was never a believer in heavy calibres subscribing to Ruark's "Use enough Gun" policy, not too much but enough. Having bought a .375 (could not say no to the price) I can tell you that I get immense joy from shooting the heavier calibre. It has nothing to do with macho but with the pleasure of owning a range of guns that one can master. In fact were my rifles to sold due to unfortunate circumstances the last to go would be the .375
savanahsdad
Member
Sierra GameKings .308 (30cal) = $28.00 per 100, Sierra GameKings .284 (7mm) =$28.00 per 100, ?
30-06 is at the top of the list , and 308win is way down the list ??... please tell us what is in the middle of that list ? it would have to be 60fps slower than the 30-06 and 50fps faster than the 308win , if there ever was a cartridge we didn't need it would fall right in there,
45-70 pointless ??? hummm ..... true it is not a long range cartridge by todays standards and not what I'd pick for the OP but pointless , ? I think you need to stop reading the DNR flyers , we just had a thread on here that addressed what cals have taken more deer , and all the post said the same thing , no way to tell as the DNR and/or Fish&Game don't ask what you shot it with
Inebriated
Member
savanahsdad said:
http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152.pdf
.30-06 did better than .308 due to being able to shoot 220gr bullets.
Whatever you say.d2wing said:
And for the record, that DNR study was done in 1983, before .45-70 had many bullet options.
Last edited:
caribou
Member
If you cant kill it with a 30-06, you should hide.
Vincent Price
Member
as usual the answer (imho) begins with "it depends..."
my first Rifle was a Mauser k98 in 8mm Mauser. The recoil was just fine.
my second rifle was a Savage 114 .30-06. That gun was just a horrible bitch. The Barrel was too short and the stock was a terrible fit for me.
Barrel Length, weight of the gun, weight of the bullet, and very importantly how the stock fits the shooter is just as important as the caliber.
having said that a .308/8mm Mauser/.30-06 is enough for practically everything except maybe bears.
The rule of thumb for hunters around here is "use the most powerful caliber/gun that you can comfortably fire with precision 10-20x in a row." With a BIG emphasis on the second part of the sentence. Shot placement is infinitely more important than the caliber used.
I freely admit that I'm rather recoil-shy so I sold the savage and got a .308 with a heavy barrel. Absolutely the right decision for me.
While not everyone is such a delicate specimen as I am there is often (not always!) some machismo involved. A lot of guys simply won't admit to themselves that they are shooting far too big a caliber and that they are flinching with every shot.
That can create a catch 22 situation. Because they flinch they don't get a good shot. So they can't drop the deer or hog on the spot. So they get a bigger caliber because "the hogs where I hunt are just too tough to drop with a <insert caliber here>."
We call that a case of magnumitis and people are rarely cured
my first Rifle was a Mauser k98 in 8mm Mauser. The recoil was just fine.
my second rifle was a Savage 114 .30-06. That gun was just a horrible bitch. The Barrel was too short and the stock was a terrible fit for me.
Barrel Length, weight of the gun, weight of the bullet, and very importantly how the stock fits the shooter is just as important as the caliber.
having said that a .308/8mm Mauser/.30-06 is enough for practically everything except maybe bears.
The rule of thumb for hunters around here is "use the most powerful caliber/gun that you can comfortably fire with precision 10-20x in a row." With a BIG emphasis on the second part of the sentence. Shot placement is infinitely more important than the caliber used.
I freely admit that I'm rather recoil-shy so I sold the savage and got a .308 with a heavy barrel. Absolutely the right decision for me.
While not everyone is such a delicate specimen as I am there is often (not always!) some machismo involved. A lot of guys simply won't admit to themselves that they are shooting far too big a caliber and that they are flinching with every shot.
That can create a catch 22 situation. Because they flinch they don't get a good shot. So they can't drop the deer or hog on the spot. So they get a bigger caliber because "the hogs where I hunt are just too tough to drop with a <insert caliber here>."
We call that a case of magnumitis and people are rarely cured
savanahsdad
Member
thanks for the link , I would have never known that a 30-06 had more power than a 300win mag
what a joke , and they list the 30-06 over the 7mm rem mag, and the 300 Wby mag. and the 300H&H didn't even make the list and no 270win but they put the 44mag on the list 
I shoot a lot of 44mag and 270win , there is no way a 44mag will do more than a 270win, or a 300win mag , I think the USDA had some misinformed 30-06 fanboys working on this and yes USDA Forest services not the DNR !
1948CJ2A
Member
MachIVShooter said:
I'll add to MachIV and say that my 8mm Rem Mag stoked with 200gr Accubonds is about the threshold for me. I can fire off a few rounds but shooting 10-20+ isn't my idea of fun. It has noticeably more recoil than my 300 Wby Mag.
That said I've read a few times over the years that the 7mm Rem Mag is usually the benchmark for recoil sensitivity.
ironworkerwill
Member
.243 WIN will go the distance. .284Win will too, with AUTHORITIE! The latter is a bit harder to find brass. 6.5-284 is also a good option Lapua makes the brass (that can also be sized up to .284). The 30-06 can be made to do all sorts of tricks and the brass is everywhere.
MachIVshooter
Member
Haha. Probably true. I have shot that rifle prone a couple times, it ain't fun. It's not too bad off-hand, getting pretty borderline from the bench. Prone just hurts, since you can't move with it.
I've shot a lot of big bores that actually have higher free recoil energy; it is the recoil velocity of that .375 that makes it particularly harsh. A 300 gr. Sierra BTSP @ 2,970 FPS produces a very sharp recoil impulse in a sporting weight rifle.
I'm right about there with ya. After the 3rd or 4th 5-shot group from the bench, I'm not really enjoying it anymore. Mine is a standard walnut stocked 700 BDL. I do love the round, though. I, too, use the 200 gr Accubonds. Haven't chronographed that load yet, but I get 2,965 with Sierra 220 grain pills and 3,315 FPS with 180s from the 24" barrel, so I expect the 200s are doing right about 3,100. Very flat shooting cartridge!
I don't doubt that. Remember, though, the the .375 H&H is a pussycat compared to a lot of the medium and big bore magnums. Not saying the recoil is light, but it's quite a bit more tolerable than many on account of the relatively low operating pressure and correspondingly lower muzzle velocity. An 8 lb .375 H&H will only tap you with about 40-45 ft/lbs @ ~20 FPS.
Nom de Forum
Member
it is the recoil velocity of that .375 that makes it particularly harsh. A 300 gr. Sierra BTSP @ 2,970 FPS produces a very sharp recoil impulse in a sporting weight rifle.
Yup, speed kills the hunted and the hunter.
Remember, though, the the .375 H&H is a pussycat compared to a lot of the medium and big bore magnums. Not saying the recoil is light, but it's quite a bit more tolerable than many on account of the relatively low operating pressure and correspondingly lower muzzle velocity. An 8 lb .375 H&H will only tap you with about 40-45 ft/lbs @ ~20 FPS.
That is why I recommended to the I.P. to go with the .375 H&H. If your going to go for heavy, a 102 years of use has shown this cartridge to be manageable by most men. A .30-06, .375H&H, along with a .22LR and 12ga, will well handle about every situation most people will ever find themselves facing.
Arizona_Mike
Member
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2013
- Messages
- 3,452
I own a Whitworth Express Rifle in .458 Win Mag--I got it cheap from a Taxidermist who won it in a raffle at a big trade show in the early '90s and shot it twice and decided to never shoot it again. I pretty much shoot reloads exclusively. I may never make it to Africa or Africa might not be there when I do. It's is neither light nor handy. For anything in the US (including bear), I'd probably go with my Brockman's Super Guide Gun with hot .45-70 loads. The gun is so light and the recoil is oddly low, even uncanny, compared to the external ballistics.
Mike
PS. I see you are looking for Coyote hunting at "extreme range". I don't think any of the .458s fit that bill although you want a cannon and I jokingly refer to my Brockman as a mortar Have you looked into the .338 Lapua in a Savage 110? I plan to own one eventually as a more practical alternative to the BMG.
Mike
PS. I see you are looking for Coyote hunting at "extreme range". I don't think any of the .458s fit that bill although you want a cannon and I jokingly refer to my Brockman as a mortar
Have you looked into the .338 Lapua in a Savage 110? I plan to own one eventually as a more practical alternative to the BMG.
Last edited:
slumlord44
Member
To me the .30-06 and .308 are close enough ballistic to almost be interchangeable. Either will handle anything in North America with the proper loading. For Coyotes a .223 or .222 Remington is plenty. The problem with a lot of suggestions is ammo availability and costs.
- Status
