Most Revolutionary Rifle Cartridge of the last 150 Years?

[George P]

6.5x55 , 7 X57 ( which US used to develop the 30-03)

I think in the USA the 300 Savage
First short action cartridge that nearly duplicated the 30-06 .. Later the US Gov. used the 300 Savage as a template to develop the 308 Win.

Absolutely!

 

[Elkins45]

You didn’t specify centerfire so the obvious choice is 22LR. If centerfire only then 7x57.

 

[Random 8]

I like the 7x57 as the parent of all cases argument. Makes me smile, everyone forgets the 7.65x53 (remarkably close in dimensions to a .311 bore .308 winchester), which according to Paul Mauser was the perfect cartridge, and preceded the 7x57 by a few years, and the 7.92x57J-88 which preceded the X53 but used the same case head.

 

[Newtosavage]

I like the 7x57 as the parent of all cases argument. Makes me smile, everyone forgets the 7.65x53 (remarkably close in dimensions to a .311 bore .308 winchester), which according to Paul Mauser was the perfect cartridge, and preceded the 7x57 by a few years, and the 7.92x57J-88 which preceded the X53 but used the same case head.

Well then I suppose Paul Mauser should have sold the 7.65x53 to the Spanish and made it famous then.

 

[d2wing]

Nobody says the .303 Brit is a slouch, and the .303 and .30-40 are basically the same, ballistically. The .30-40, however, to believe the myths about it, is about equal to a Brown Bess. In its period loading it propelled a 220gr bullet at about 2000fps, compared to the 7x57’s original loading, of a 172gr bullet at about 2200fps. In practical terms at actual combat distances, there’s not a lot of difference except on a ballistics table -at least, if soldiers are trained in how to aim their rifles. The bigger problem in the Spanish American war was that most US soldiers in that conflict were still armed with Trapdoor Springfields, were equipped with equipment left over from the Civil War, and had little training. But the Krag (and its round) made a nice scapegoat because the military wanted to justify upgrading to a Mauser-style system and it’s easier to blame equipment to take the attention off poor leadership.

You are fudging the figures by a significant amount and ignoring the widely known history. If you were correct, modern cartridges would not be based on the 7x57 and would not need the 30-06.]

 

[Newtosavage]

I'll still take a 7mm bullet over a 7.62 or 7.65 for all practical purposes however. I think he had it right with the 7x57

 

[indy1919a4]

Well then I suppose Paul Mauser should have sold the 7.65x53 to the Spanish and made it famous then.

He did, the Spanish purchased about 1200 7.65x53 for trial rifles.

Then in 1893 the Melillan war broke out and for Spain this was like the Spanish American war was for us. Spain needed modern arms and they needed them yesterday so they took delivery of 1000s (possible up to 10k) 7.63x53 Mauser rifles & carbines that were intended for Argentina. Some of the rifles will ship with the Argentinian crest while some will actually be stamped with Spain's crest.

After the revolt was put down, Spain did not know what to do with these rifles so they were relegated for use in the Spanish Colonies.

One of those colonies was Cuba and after the Spanish American war some of those guns will come back to America as surplus via the great Francis Bannermen.

 

[Newtosavage]

He did, the Spanish purchased about 1200 7.65x53 for trial rifles.

Then in 1893 the Melillan war broke out and for Spain this was like the Spanish American war was for us. Spain needed modern arms and they needed them yesterday so they took delivery of 1000s (possible up to 10k) 7.63x53 Mauser rifles & carbines that were intended for Argentina. Some of the rifles will ship with the Argentinian crest while some will actually be stamped with Spain's crest.

After the revolt was put down, Spain did not know what to do with these rifles so they were relegated for use in the Spanish Colonies.

One of those colonies was Cuba and after the Spanish American war some of those guns will come back to America as surplus via the great Francis Bannermen.

So why the 7x57 then? I need to know "the rest of the story" as Paul Harvey would say...

 

[Buckeye63]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.65×53mm_Mauser

I owned a Argentine Mauser in 7.65 Argentine
It was a beautiful rifle almost newish looking ...
I remember just how modern the 7.65x53 cartridge looked ...

 

[Jim Watson]

I had a reprint of a 19th century Mauser catalog.
"We are prepared to offer rifles in calibers as small as 5 millimeters."

 

[Mosin77]

You are fudging the figures by a significant amount and ignoring the widely known history. If you were correct, modern cartridges would not be based on the 7x57 and would not need the 30-06.]

The figures I quoted are the accepted figures for the original military loadings. Both cartridges, as a matter of fact, are certainly capable of much better. They can both propel modern spitzer bullets at very high velocities with modern powders. They are only held back by the guns which they are chambered in, and as both have been chambered in the Ruger No. 1, which has a legendary reputation for strength-of-action, the question is basically moot. But apples to apples, in their original loadings, and fired from the barrels of an old Krag and an old Spanish Mauser, they aren’t that different.

Many modern cartridges may or may not be based on the 7x57 case (I don’t know) but case dimensions in themselves have little to do with the greatness (or not) of a given round. The Russian 7.62x54R was the parent case of the Austrian 8x50R which saw service in the Great War on the opposite side, but it’s pretty much just trivia today. Just because a cartridge designer or wildcatter expanded or lengthened or shortened one existing cartridge rather than designing it to given dimensions from scratch, says more for manufacturing convenience than it does for the innate greatness of the parent case. Otherwise he’d never have modified it.

Speaking of the Russian 7.62x54r, I’m not aware of any other round from the 1890s that’s still in active front line service with military forces today. The x54R was adopted in 1891. It’s also (if it matters) the parent case of the ubiquitous 7.62x39, which is itself the parent case of at least one incredibly accurate benchrest rifle round -a sport that’s pushing the boundaries of what rifles can do, in the present day. So I’d say the 7.62x54r is at least as worthy of inclusion in the list of great cartridges which have really advanced the world of rifles, as the Lebel, 8x57, 7x57, etc.

 

[Random 8]

So why the 7x57 then? I need to know "the rest of the story" as Paul Harvey would say...

As powders and barrel rifling/metallurgy developed, smaller bore diameters became viable and the "perfect" cartridge became smaller bored. Technology improved. My original point was, the 7x57 is not the "father of modern cartridges of shared bolt face with 30-06," the 8x57J and 7.65x53 came first, and it's a mauser thing. Had the US settled on the Schmidt Rubin cartridge in 1903 (it was tested both as the first standard smokeless rifle, and as a replacement for the Krag), we'd be looking at the 7,5 Swiss as the .30-03 round, possibly in a straight pull bolt rifle, and a .270winchester that looks more like a .284win case. If the intermediate cartridge model and self loading rifle technology had been there, we probably would have seen a 6.5 and 7x40ish mm round. And the 7x57 is a good round no doubt, but had we gone to war with the Ottoman empire rather than the Spanish empire, the 7.65 would be the famous one! Teddy Roosevelt and a certain Ivory hunter made it famous in addition to the Boer war, but that has only been famous in the US recently, although it did lead to a lot of British work around the .280 diameter.

 

[WestKentucky]

250-3000 aka .250 savage. It broke the barrier and became a huge breakthrough in and of itself even though many other rounds became far more plentiful and popular. It was leading the pack on velocity and was one of the cartridges that showed the world that high velocity small bore could do a lot of damage and be accurately shot at longer range.

gyrojet... was a flop but was a twist and very cool attempt at something new.

dardick... again a twist and cool attempt at something new.

I assume that we are talking non-NFA stuff so I won’t bring up naval and artillery type stuff, but there are some really really cool things out there. Sabot rounds, multipiece projectiles with driving bands, grenade launcher type rounds with various functions from the same “cartridge”.

 

[Swampman]

The x54R was adopted in 1891. It’s also (if it matters) the parent case of the ubiquitous 7.62x39...

Your post made many excellent points, but your assertion that the 7.62x39 case was based on the 7.62x54R case is incorrect. They share the same bore diameter, that's about it.

 

[Jim Watson]

You may recall that we had a neat kewl 7mm all lined up, but wouldn't change.

 

[Mosin77]

Your post made many excellent points, but your assertion that the 7.62x39 case was based on the 7.62x54R case is incorrect. They share the same bore diameter, that's about it.

You’re correct, that was a hasty comment on my part.

 

[Llama Bob]

Picking one is a little silly, but several come to mind:

The .22 Rimfire (now .22 Short) is slightly before the time window, but undoubtedly the most revolutionary cartridge as the first functional metallic cartridge (the 6mm Flobert was a parlor trick - literally - with no powder).

The 8mm Lebel had a small bore, nitro powder (a first), and a spire point boat tail bullet to boot - three major innovations that were highly synergistic with eachother. The feed geometry sucked in a repeater though.

The 7mm Mauser brought together a small bore, a spire point bullet, and modern case, feed, and rifle capabilities and set the standard for basically everything we hunt with now. It and the 6.5x55 are basically the first rounds that you could go out and just use, and feel like you weren't giving much up to modern cartridges although the 6.5x55 needed a spire point for general utility.

The .450 NE ushered in the era of the modern big bore hunting cartridge and set the standard for the class.

A .22 Short, a 7mm Mauser, and a .450 NE would still be a fully functional three rifle battery for all game over a century later.