Mozambique Drill times? Best you've done, best you've seen/heard of?

[JohnKSa]

Mozambique = draw pistol and fire two to the chest and one to the head.

How long does this take?

Your best time
Average time
Good time
Exceptional time
Current world record time

Now humor me a bit...

What, in your opinion, would be the same times above if you started with your hand right next to your CLOSED FLAP HOLSTER. Yep, that's right. Let's say you could put your hand arbitrarily close to the holster but that the holster was a flap holster with the flap down and fastened. How long would it take to unfasten the holster, draw and fire two to the chest and one to the head at 10 yards.

Your best time (assuming you've tried this)
Average estimated time
Good estimated time
Exceptional estimated time
Your opinion of what is the fastest humanly possible time

Some of you may already know where I'm going with this, but after I get a suitable number of responses I'll post the reason I asked these questions...

Thanks!

John

 

[horge]

I may not be qualified to post, being a crosseyed, girly-handed weakling,
but with a rental Armscor GI, cocked & locked out of a fake WW2 flap holster
(I was in WW2 GI olive drab, too, with steel helmet ---long story...)
10 meters, IPSC silhouette, Armscor FMJ.

Your best time (assuming you've tried this) : a hair over 4 seconds
Average estimated time : maybe 6 seconds, including misses
Good estimated time : over 4 seconds
Exceptional estimated time : isn't this the same as my best time?
Your opinion of what is the fastest humanly possible time : maybe 2 seconds or less

I used my weak hand to keep the flap open after my right unsnapped it---that disqualify me?
I only tried it a few times, and I came close to an ND trying to go faster
As slow as I was, that was under range conditions, where I'm anticipating the shoot, and deciding when it all starts. Real life seems a less-predictable consideration.


horge

 

[c_yeager]

I dont really think the point of this drill is to be really as fast with all three shots. If that were the purpose wouldnt the whole thing be much faster if one simply skipped to the head shot in the first place?

I think the point is to fire two rounds to the chest as quickly as possible, and if those fail to stop the threat, then its worthwile to take the time to line up a headshot because there is something wrong if two shots to the chest dont work. I also seem to remember that this drill was originally intended to apply to rifles.

 

[Borachon]

Against one target?

2.5 seconds.

Double tap to the chest/stomach area.

The head shot actually takes longer than the two shots to the torso, because I have to be more precise in my shooting.

Against multiple targets (3 cutouts), I've shot all three in "two shots torso, one shot head" fashion in 7 seconds before. You just get into a rhythm. Head shots are always harder and take longer.

How long would it take to unfasten the holster, draw and fire two to the chest and one to the head at 10 yards.

I'd estimate it would take me about 7 seconds.

 

[HD]

1.7 seconds ...

cause i'd cheat and pull my 442 from my coat pocket after putting 2 rnds in the guys chest / gut thru the coat pocket , then drawing and firing a round to the head...

 

[Chris Rhines]

The IDPA classifier starts out with three Mozambique drills at seven yards. I don't know if this is my best time ever, but the last time I shot the classifier I turned in a 2.12 second run, no points down. Warmed up, I bet I could shoot one in 2.0 seconds these days.

I'd expect an IPSC GM to be able to shoot an M-drill in under 1.5 seconds.

I have no idea what I could do with a WWII flap holster. That's kind of like asking what my best quarter-mile time is in my Model T Ford. Probably 2.5 seconds, added on to however long it takes to unfasten the holster flap. 3.5-4.0??

- Chris

 

[3 gun]

I doubt many have done this with a flap holster, I know I haven't and don't plan on it. We do this drill as part of our match every month. I use the same gear as I use for USPSA shooting. My average time for the last shoot was 1.7 sec, my fastest 1.63, slowest 1.74. The fastest average for the match was 1.45 and quickest run 1.26. I've seen USPSA GMs with open gear do this in .8sec and less.

 

[Navy joe]

On a draw from a flap with a decocked, safety on M9(cond. 1) I am in the 1.6-2.0 range to first shot. A glock 17 out of Kydex I can get the first shot .8-.9 from retention, 1.1-1.3 with full firing grip and extension. I play with the flap holster because that's how we qual in the Navy, a ton of two shots in 4 seconds from the holster, it is pretty mickey mouse and feels like slow fire. Maybe I'll get bored and shoot a match like that...Or not. I would call 2.5 seconds a good time for me on your drill. If a good shooter couldn't do it in 1.5 I'd be shocked.

 

[Grunt]

Ask the folks at MCSFBn.Lant what they're qualifications on the CPC course of fire is. These are the same folks that train MCSFCo. personnel as well as FAST bubbas as well. Guess if you were there, they'd tell you 1.5 seconds for this drill but it sounds like you just must have never been there.

 

[JohnKSa]

1.5 seconds for this drill

Are you talking about starting from a closed flap holster?

 

[Grunt]

Yup. The holsters are pretty well worn and some have "accidently" had their holes in the flap enlarged a little but the drill starts with the flap closed and buttoned down.

 

[JohnKSa]

You're saying that they start with the flap closed, hands not touching any equipment and are given a signal.

At the signal they:

open the flap
draw
fire 2 shots hitting the torso of a target at 10 yards
fire 1 shot hitting the head of a target at 10 yards
with the third (head) shot hitting no more than 1.5 seconds after the signal to draw is given?

What percentage are able to accomplish it in that amount of time?

 

[Ankeny]

In the early days of the Steel Challenge a similar drill was shot on two steel plates. The drill was called Double Trouble. The world record was 3.92 (4 runs), for an average of 0.98 per run. I run the drill consistently in the 1.18-1.22 range with my best efforts running right around one second flat. This is open carry with a Blade-Tech holster.

"What percentage are able to accomplish it in that amount of time?"

I would like to see someone do the drill in 1.5 seconds with a flap top holster.

 

[JMusic]

I don't think I have actually shot this particular method. At 5 yards I can double tap two targets (3 lb coffee cans) between 2-2.5 seconds 5 feet apart. This is with a smith revolver and a Western style holster. I'll have to try the drill you described.
Jim

 

[JohnKSa]

This came up because of a post on another board in which a poster claimed to be able to do the drill at 10 yards starting from a closed flap holster in 1.5 seconds. When questioned, he stated that it was part of a military qualification course and that all of the folks being cycled through this particular course were able to learn to do it in 1.5 seconds or less.

 

[Grunt]

This came up because of a post on another board in which a poster claimed to be able to do the drill at 10 yards starting from a closed flap holster in 1.5 seconds. When questioned, he stated that it was part of a military qualification course and that all of the folks being cycled through this particular course were able to learn to do it in 1.5 seconds or less.

So have YOU spent time in the military or gone through some of the schools those folks go through that you can say from your own personal military experience what is being taught?

 

[Gordon]

I take longer to get a good head shot but I can do it in under 5 seconds with a US M-9 (tweaked) and it's holster(stock)in front of a class on demand (includes reaction time).
Give me my Commander from i'ts G-Code and I might be able to get it down to 3 seconds

 

[Correia]

1.5 seconds from a closed flap holster Mozambique at 10 yards? Everybody who goes through a school? Whatever special-super-dooper-secret school he went to or not. Sorry. Maybe if you are timing it from first shot to last, but no way in the world from the signal, to the closed holster, to engage. If somebody can do it great, but a large group of people. Utter bunk. Unless their 10 yard target is REALLY BIG.

And yes, I know FAST Marines. I also know lots of SF guys. I shoot with them, I know what the tests are like. My business partners are SF vets. One of them used to teach Marines how to shoot pistols. Contrary to popular opinion, and as great as these guys are, they do not walk on water. No offense.

1.5 from a regular holster is really quick. A 1.5 DRAW from a regular holster is decent. So you must be doing a sub 1 second draw (which is very very fast, and a challenge from a regular holster even with a ton of practice). And then cranking off 3 aimed shots (including a 10 yard head shot) with split times of .17.

I've seen a 1.5 done, and it was lightning quick, and it came from a very good competitor. The best I've ever managed is around 2.25, and that was above my average of about 2.5.

When those guys get out of that special unit, they need to all get million dollar a year contracts shooting for Springfield.

 

[Correia]

And like a lot of speed/drill things you hear discussed on the internet, there are lots of things that are talked about which are amazing, but you don't neccesarily ever hear about them in matches where there are witnesses and good timers.

 

[WT]

"Mozambique = draw pistol and fire two to the chest and one to the head."

I don't think that is how Jeff Cooper defined the technique. As a graduate of Stanford with a degree in English, I would assume that Jeff was careful when he defined the technique.

See Cooper's Commentaries.

http://users2.ev1.net/~mkreynolds/jeff/jeff1_1.html

 

[JohnKSa]

So have YOU spent time in the military or gone through some of the schools those folks go through that you can say from your own personal military experience what is being taught?

No, I can only rely on what I have been told by those who have.

But when a large group of experienced shooters contradict what I have been told, I have to weigh the word of one against the experience of many. Right now, there is a single person who says that it is not hard to do, and a large group of experienced shooters who say it is bordering on superhuman...

If YOU had to make a decision based on that kind of evidence, what would you decide?

 

[12 Volt Man]

I have shot in the 1.5 second range, and I have seen Correia do it in about the same time or less. These were done from a concealment holster and two guys with stop watches. Nothing real scientific. Just some fun competition.
Also on several occasions I have done drills like this with PCRCCW in about the same time. We can't get 1.5 seconds every time, but sometimes it works out.

 

[SONICMASD]

I still cant believe that the name of this drill is correct. Have any of you been to Mozambique? I have, theres no way that those skinnys could hit someone with the first 3 shots let alone with the speed and accuracy discussed here. and they probably all had AKs not pistols.

I remember taking a piss on a tree in mozambique, looking down into the tall grass, and seeing an unexploded mortar shell and thinking "what a nice place"

 

[Mad Magyar]

Speed drills are great and need to be an integral part of one's range training. But let's clear up one thing: the Mozambique or "Failure Drill" that Jeff Cooper renamed to be politically correct nowadays is not the drill scenario that JohnKSa has set-up. Nothing wrong with it, but as a Cooper purist call it something else, like 2 +1 or something, but if you're going to use his terminology: let's get it right.
"two in the body, one in the head oversimplifies matters, since it takes considerably longer to be absolutely sure of a head shot than it does to be quite sure of two shots in the thorax. The problem for the shooter is to change his pace, going just as fast as he can with his first pair, then, pausing to observe results or lack thereof, he must slow down and shoot precisely. This is not easy to do. The beginner tends to fire all three shots at the same speed, which is either too slow for the body shots or too fast for the head shot. This change of pace calls for concentration and coordination which can only be developed through practice."
Jeff Cooper

 

[strambo]

My guess is the guy is embellishing (lying) or is mistaken on the facts. 1.5 seconds in 10 FEET instead of 10 yds maybe (1st shot retention, 2nd as the gun is extending, head shot at full extension). Or he meant 2.5, or even 3.5seconds instead of 1.5. I can believe a person can do it...but as someone else said, certainly not many and as part of a school standard. Especially a military school, no matter how high speed.

Even if you could conceivably get a group to do this, the amount of time it would take in training and ammo would be extreme. That level of skill is overkill for combat and the time could be spent training on better skills. Heck, you'd think a high speed military school would just issue a better holster than a flap one to start with, no one is constrained to that carry method, even in the NG.