Multiple handgun purchases and ATF reporting

[Comrade Mike]

I'm looking to have a pair of 9mm hand guns shipped to my home FFL to be transferred to me. I seem to recall there being a provision in federal law that multiple handgun purchases in a set time frame requires the Dealer to notify the ATF.

Is there any harm in the reporting? or would it be better to space the transfers apart to avoid notification of the ATF?

 

[243winxb]

2 of the exact same model may get extra attention? ? Had sales where customers got a free Raven 25acp with purchase of a more expensive handgun. Never had an ATF problem in the 70's & 80's. Today might be different?? Not a problem if you are the FFL holder.

 

[Owen]

I do lots of multiple sales, sometimes 4 and 5 guns, shouldn't be a problem unless your state has a gun a month provision or similar.

 

[4thPointOfContact]

It's just an extra piece of paper, nothing to worry about. It takes 15 minutes to do and you can already be out the door when it's faxed in.

 

[AWorthyOpponent]

From the ATF site...

In August 2011, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) was authorized by the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) to initiate similar reporting requirements on the multiple sales related to certain rifles for a period of three years. Multiple Sales For Certain Rifles requires all federal firearms licensees in Arizona, California, New Mexico, and Texas to submit reports of multiple sales or other dispositions to an unlicensed individual of two or more rifles within five consecutive business days having the following characteristics: (1) semiautomatic; (2) a caliber greater than .22 (including .223/5.56 mm); and (3) the ability to accept detachable magazines.

Source: https://www.atf.gov/publications/factsheets/factsheet-multiple-sales-reporting.html


Two similar 9mm handguns shouldn't require reporting...

 

[Bubbles]

It takes 15 minutes to do and you can already be out the door when it's faxed in.

ATF now has a hand-dandy fill-in PDF you can use to save them and then email as an attachment. No need for paper, and you have proof it was sent.

 

[vamo]

From the ATF site...

Quote:
In August 2011, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) was authorized by the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) to initiate similar reporting requirements on the multiple sales related to certain rifles for a period of three years. Multiple Sales For Certain Rifles requires all federal firearms licensees in Arizona, California, New Mexico, and Texas to submit reports of multiple sales or other dispositions to an unlicensed individual of two or more rifles within five consecutive business days having the following characteristics: (1) semiautomatic; (2) a caliber greater than .22 (including .223/5.56 mm); and (3) the ability to accept detachable magazines.
Source: https://www.atf.gov/publications/fac...reporting.html


Two similar 9mm handguns shouldn't require reporting...
__________________
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms shall not be infringed.

That's a completely separate provision about the states bordering Mexico, the rules are intended to prevent gun running.

This is what OP is asking about

The Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968 requires federal firearms licensees (FFLs) to report multiple sales of handguns to the same purchaser [18 U.S.C. § 923(g)(3)]. The sale of two or more handguns must be reported if they occur at the same time, or within five business days of each other.

I would say no you don't need to be concerned.

 

[dogtown tom]

Comrade Mike ......Is there any harm in the reporting? or would it be better to space the transfers apart to avoid notification of the ATF?

I've had two customers contacted by ATF following a multiple purchase:
1. Picked up ten pistols that he bought online while out of the country for two months. ATF left their business card on his door asking him to call. They wanted to know if he was reselling the pistols. Although he was not required to show them his guns, he did. The agent told my customer "nice collection, we won't bother you again".
Since then he has picked up as many as five at a time with no further contact from ATF.

2. Two years ago, another customer ordered four Hungarian AMD65 rifles from Bud's (on sale for $439each!.....I bought six). Dealers in the four border states are required to report multiple sales of certain rifles. ATF again left their business card at the door. Customer and ATF agent played phone tag for several days and my customer finally left a message "leave me alone". They did.....until January.

In January, ATF traced an AR recovered in Mexico to this same customer (wasn't one of my transfers). ATF again contacted him and asked that he meet at their local office where they handed him a "cease and desist" letter. Basically they felt he was engaging in the business of dealing firearms without a license.....now he cannot sell or transfer firearms to anyone but a licensed dealer.

 

[dogtown tom]

AWorthyOpponent From the ATF site...

Quote:
In August 2011, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) was authorized by the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) to initiate similar reporting requirements on the multiple sales related to certain rifles for a period of three years. Multiple Sales For Certain Rifles requires all federal firearms licensees in Arizona, California, New Mexico, and Texas to submit reports of multiple sales or other dispositions to an unlicensed individual of two or more rifles within five consecutive business days having the following characteristics: (1) semiautomatic; (2) a caliber greater than .22 (including .223/5.56 mm); and (3) the ability to accept detachable magazines.

Source: https://www.atf.gov/publications/fac...reporting.html

Two similar 9mm handguns shouldn't require reporting...

Wrong.
That's for "Certain Rifles" and currently only applies to Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California. It is not Federal law but an administrative ruling by ATF that requires it.

Federal law DOES require the reporting of Multiple Sales of Handguns in all states.

 

[Looking for Knowledge]

Good information here. This must be a recent change?

And, dogtown tom, awesome transfer prices!

 

[dogtown tom]

Looking for Knowledge Good information here. This must be a recent change?

No.
Multiple sale reporting for handguns has been Federal law since 1994 I believe.
Multiple sale of certain rifles in the border states since 2011.

 

[cslinger]

Only did this once and never had a problem. That being said what I bought probably didn't scream gun runner or petty crook. An early Smith 586 and a pre lock 3 inch 625 both were too good of deals to pass up and neither likely scream knock over the local quiky mart arms.

 

[brboyer]

I bought 17 handguns one day a couple years ago. No problems, no visits, nothing but a smile on my face and my FFL's!

 

[shiftyer1]

If reporting it worries you, just pick the other one up after 2 weeks.......

Also it hasn't been mentioned but a copy is also sent to your local police dept.

 

[herrwalther]

I filled out paperwork for 3 handguns that got me a face to face visit with two ATF agents. Nothing spectacular about the transaction. All .45s, 2 were 1911s and an XD. Not in a border state either, this was when I was still living in VT. They showed up on campus as I was a student at the time and wanted to ask me some questions. They were very interested in why I picked up 3 handguns in such a short period. Their tune changed drastically when I told them they were commemorative pieces from a deployment and showed them pictures from my phone.

 

[mavracer]

It's set up so they can follow up on any suspect purchases, like 5 or 10 of the same model, that look like somebody purchasing for resale.
2 of the same model usually won't even get a call, I've bought 2 to 4 at a time many times and while somewhat suprised, still haven't recieved a phone call.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I have bought a revolver and shotgun on one 4473 as gifts to my wife, and my son bought matching rifles, one for me for father's day and one for himself, one one 4473. When he first got a good job and was buying guns off his wish list every payday, the dealer advised him not to make over three purchases a month or he would be "flagged".

I believe what ATF instructs dealers to look for and report is a pattern of multiple purchases (especially same make, model, caliber) that may appear to be either straw purchase or purchase for purposes of direct resell (dealing without a license).

We are right on the Tennessee/Virginia border so there may have been special attention being paid to a specific trafficking situation. But I also believe you must show a pattern of multiple purchase consistent with trafficking (straw purchase/dealing w/o license) over time and (believe it or not) most ATF field agents do not want to harrass sportsmen or hobbyists buying for personal use or for good faith (bona fide) gift to qualified friends or relatives.

 

[Blackhawk30]

I would space the purchases out.Do one then the other 7 days later.Its better to not have that piece of paper with your name on it.

 

[dogtown tom]

Carl N. Brown I have bought a revolver and shotgun on one 4473 as gifts to my wife, and my son bought matching rifles, one for me for father's day and one for himself, one one 4473. When he first got a good job and was buying guns off his wish list every payday, the dealer advised him not to make over three purchases a month or he would be "flagged".

That may be state law in Tennessee, it certainly is not Federal law.

I believe what ATF instructs dealers to look for and report is a pattern of multiple purchases (especially same make, model, caliber) that may appear to be either straw purchase or purchase for purposes of direct resell (dealing without a license).

ATF instructs us to report multiple sales because its federal law......we don't have a choice.

I've discontinued transferring to two customers not because they bought multiple firearms, but because they told me they planned to "flip them"......that's dealing without a license.

 

[mgkdrgn]

It's just a piece of paper that gets filed away and forgotten about, don't sweat it.

Now, if the FFL's bound book shows a pattern of you picking up guns so that you skirt filing the paperwork ... you'll both be due for some "extra attantion".

And yes, I am an FFL.

 

[mgkdrgn]

I have bought a revolver and shotgun on one 4473 as gifts to my wife, and my son bought matching rifles, one for me for father's day and one for himself, one one 4473. When he first got a good job and was buying guns off his wish list every payday, the dealer advised him not to make over three purchases a month or he would be "flagged".

"the dealer" is a boob.

 

[mgkdrgn]

If reporting it worries you, just pick the other one up after 2 weeks.......

Also it hasn't been mentioned but a copy is also sent to your local police dept.

Ya, that won't look the least bit suspicious the next time your FFL has his ATF audit ... two guns on sequential lines in his bound book, picked up two weeks apart by the same person.

ya, no problem there .... NOT

And the "local police department" more likely than not trashes those forms as fast as they get them.

 

[Blackhawk30]

Well I was advised by a dealer to do it that way.I don't see why it would raise a red flag.The multiple handgun paper work IS the red flag.And yes, I have held an ffl in the past.

 

[mavracer]

If you're not on their list by now you should be ashamed.

 

[Ryanxia]

2. Two years ago, another customer ordered four Hungarian AMD65 rifles from Bud's (on sale for $439each!.....I bought six). Dealers in the four border states are required to report multiple sales of certain rifles. ATF again left their business card at the door. Customer and ATF agent played phone tag for several days and my customer finally left a message "leave me alone". They did.....until January.

In January, ATF traced an AR recovered in Mexico to this same customer (wasn't one of my transfers). ATF again contacted him and asked that he meet at their local office where they handed him a "cease and desist" letter. Basically they felt he was engaging in the business of dealing firearms without a license.....now he cannot sell or transfer firearms to anyone but a licensed dealer.

Unless there is more information the cease and desist letter does not mean he can now only sell to a licensed dealer, it is just a record that indicates he has been made aware that an individual cannot buy and sell firearms for profit. There is no legal force behind it, just kind of a 'written warning' that if you are buying and selling for profit you must get a license. Buying and selling to upgrade your collection on the other hand is perfectly legal and is even stated so on the ATF's website.

OP - You run the chance of having to answer some questions by the ATF if they decide to call/stop by but they don't always bother and as long as you're not doing anything wrong you're all set.