My complaint against milsurp rifles

[.38 Special]

"Gun Addict", you need to read the whole thread before jumping in with both feet.

MCgunner, nothing would suit me like one of the Honda GP bikes of the 60s. I would never claim, though, that they are better than today's bikes at, well, anything. Modern motorcycles are better in every way, at least in practical, measurable terms.

Moreover, relatively few milsurp collectors are buying the equivalent of that old Honda. In point of fact, most of them aren't even buying the equivalent of a nice 70s CB750. The majority, in my experience, are buying clapped-out 250cc Suzuki cruisers from the early 80s, and some of those fellows are even posting on this thread claiming that they got rid of their CBR900RR because their Suzuki cruiser is so much better and that anyone who would rather have the RR must be a motorcycle snob.

None of which has anything to do with the knowledgeable and picky collector who is searching out the very best examples of a particular model to satisfy his own desires.

 

[bearmgc]

Jimmyray,I believe you. A young fellow I took hunting 2 years ago had a Stevens 200 in .270. He was spot on , killing a nice doe at 170yds, with a Bushnell Trophey scope. It got the job done. I've seen several K98s shoot pretty amazingly accurate groups. My Swede does an easy 1in groups or less. I had an older cheapie Weatherby Vanguard .223 doing .5in groups easy at 100yds. point being, you can't always tell a book by its cover. More expensive rifles don't always add up in producing smaller shot groups.

 

[Saiga39]

I have two Yugo Mauser 24/47's. I mounted a scout scope setup to one. Shoots real nice.
8mm tins are still available.

I'm looking forward to taking that deer hunting in the fall.

 

[.38 Special]

And, heck, you can still ride to the dairy queen on a K model Harley flat head, ya know.

Well, I'd say it's 50/50 at best.

 

[Joe Demko]

Carcanos, ftr, are not necessarily poorly made nor are they lacking in accuracy. The pre-war specimens are, in fact, very nicely made and are good shooters. Those that had gain-twist rifling suffer if Bubba has taken a hacksaw to the barrel. Carcs and Arisakas both can be pretty awful if you pick one from later on in the war. Same with Mausers. For that matter, the US and UK were winning and we pumped out some uglyass stuff late in the game.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

I wasn't talking about you Mcgunner. This is what .38 special said;"I am attacking people for posting outrageous lies on the internet about cheap, poorly made guns and ammo"and "while Remington 700s are only capable of 4 MOA. only on the internet, folks!" Implying that it could not possibly happen on the range.

 

[MTS Cop]

My interest in mil-surp is purely historical. I have a Garand, M1 Carbine and a P-38, all WW2 vintage (actually the Garand is from 1940). The Garand and Carbine are excellent weapons and can probably shoot better than me. And I picked up enough ammo while it was cheap that I can still shoot them for awhile. The P-38 on the other hand is a jam-o-matic. It's not particularly well finished either and the DA trigger is horendous. If it were a new gun I'd never buy another Walther again. But I bought and like it because it's my little piece of the Reich. When I want to tack drive fist sized groups all day I'll pick up my 226, when I want to time travel I'll pick up the P-38 (and do malfuntion drills all day). If you buy a mil-surp for reasons more than history you're probably making a mistake.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, .38, I might buy another RD400 some day. I loved those old 2 strokes. I'd like to have one if, for nothing else, to PO the EPA. I had a couple of TZ250s back in the day, too. I could have kept and restored 'em, but when you're 20 something trying to win races, you don't think of stuff like that.

The majority, in my experience, are buying clapped-out 250cc Suzuki cruisers from the early 80s,

I think the "majority" of milsurp buyers now days are picking up Mosins. Why? Because of the price and what you get for the money. I wouldn't equate a nice mosin to a 250 Suzuki cruiser, maybe an old X6 Hustler. I'd like to have an old X6 in restored condition. I've seen some restored Mosins that are really nice shooters for a hundred bucks. They'll never match up in warfare with an AK or M4 and they'll never beat out a nice Weatherby Mk 5, but for a hundred bucks, why not? If some folks think their Mosin is better than a Mk 5, they're sorta delusional, but that don't mean the Mosin can't work for 'em. I really don't see the Mosin vs commercial rifle as the Honda Rebel vs RC211V, IOW. LOL

BTW, the X6 was the first 250cc motorcycle to legitimately, out of the box, break 100 mph. I don't think the EX250 can do that today and it's about the fastest 250 out there short of a RS250 or TZ250 or RS Aprilia full blown factory racers. That wouldn't be the case, though, if the EPA hadn't killed the 2 stroke in this country, but, you get the point. Some old stuff can shine even today. That's even more so for firearms which don't evolve as fast as the internal cumbustion engine has in the last 50 years. After all, your basic Weatherby bolt action, well, it's not far from the very FIRST Mauser 98 in design. The Lebel, the 88 commission rifle, and the Mosin were more Manlicher designs than 98 Mauser. But, you can add your extra locking lugs, your 60 degree bolts, your tang safeties, and what do you have in a modern bolt gun, but a Mauser action? Lots of 'em don't have controlled round feed, either, if that's important to ya. Paul Mauser's guns all had controlled round feed and many still think that is desirable.

 

[MCgunner]

I wasn't talking about you Mcgunner. This is what .38 special said;"I am attacking people for posting outrageous lies on the internet about cheap, poorly made guns and ammo"and "while Remington 700s are only capable of 4 MOA. only on the internet, folks!" Implying that it could not possibly happen on the range.

Oh, sorry, my bad.

If you buy a mil-surp for reasons more than history you're probably making a mistake.

I think cheap plinking (SKS) is a good reason. I mean, my GAWD, SOMEbody has to buy up all those surplus SKSs and they don't have a whole lot of history, not like a K98 or something, although I have a surplus Norinco that looked as if it might have seen service in Vietnam when I got it, LOL. 75 bucks, though, and it shoots great and cleaned up nice.

 

[N3810F]

Whats not to love about my K31. Guns can be fun, right?

 

[Cosmoline]

And we're right back to antique milsurp rifles made in third world countries shooting MOA with antique milsurp ammo -- also made in third world countries -- while Remington 700s are only capable of 4 MOA.

Well those poor impoverished SWISS BANKERS made some really, really, REALLY good rifles boyo. REALLY good.

It's not my fault if modern crudchesters feel like third rate toys made from plywood and plastic after experiencing real long arms.

 

[.38 Special]

Say, Cosmo, is this going to be one of those deals where you follow me around from thread to thread to pick fights, reading for comprehension be damned?

 

[Cosmoline]

Absolutely!

would really rather have a Weatherby

Maybe a vintage Mannlicher-Schoenauer, but a Weatherby? I think not.

Actually, truth be told one of the reasons I've owned and loved so many surplus rifles is the challenge they present. They're not particularly easy. You have to adjust your shooting style and learn a bit of history to understand why they were made the way they were made. You have to study them to understand what loads will work best. I've even had custom bullets made for them to recreate the loads of the 1890's. If I just wanted something to put holes in deer or a target I'd be happy with a modern scoped thing. But because I am the way I am, such rifles don't do anything for me.

Now that I've discovered flintlocks and real black powder, though, I may not be going back to smokeless at all.

 

[rocky branch]

I spent 4 years with a combat MOS and did two tours in the bush in VN.

I never felt too bad trusting my life to a crappy military weapon. Including the M2 and M16.
I managed to keep my scalp.

 

[MCgunner]

Now that I've discovered flintlocks and real black powder, though, I may not be going back to smokeless at all.

Geez, man, why mess with modern technology? I'm into archery now and can't wait till bow season. I do have a recurve, but have a compound now. I realize Geronimo never had wheels on his bow, but it's still more "primitive" than my Hawken.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

To me a primitive weapon is a spear sharpened and hardened in a fire and thrown by an atlatl.

 

[MCgunner]

I thought about atlatls, but realized, there aren't too many mammoths left in Texas.

 

[gun addict]

i agree of course that an average Remington 700 or Savage 110 can do better groupings than most Milsups, but it's snoobish attidute like .38 special that ticks me off. No, i don't buy $600 persian Mausers because i need a cheap gun, i buy them for their quality, craftsmenship and history. Ever seen a Swedish Mauser .38 special? Have you seen the machining and blueing and craftsmenship that went into them?

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Good point,MCgunner. Perhaps I should give this a little more thought.

 

[Gelgoog]

now why did all the elmer fudds have to come in here and ruin a good thing.

 

[MCgunner]

Must be cause we ain't mall ninjas or wannabe snipers?

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Fudds?? You know it's over when the name calling starts.

 

[CZguy]

I managed to keep my scalp.

Me too...........but now my scalp is of less value.

 

[leadcounsel]

Well what did you think you were getting with WWII guns?

You are probably too young to appreciate the history behind each gun. The story each gun could tell...

That's fine, when I was 25 I also had little appreciation for history. But that 's okay!

BTW, these all appreciated a lot in value...

 

[gun addict]

yup, those "junky inaccurate" military surplus's value/price jumped wwayyyyy up during the last 10 years, and did those "awesome super duper" Remington 700 or Savage 110 gain value over the years? Didn't think so