My debate with an anti

[PILMAN]

It's up to you guys if you want to read it, hopefully i'm posting in the right place. I had a debate with a fellow Jew on MSN regarding gun control, did I do ok? I'm not sure what else I could say.



Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
hi mr. kahane, who are you?

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
pilman from the forums

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
oh hey, whats up

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
was just curious if you had a chance to read that pdf on gun control

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
i wasnt aware that there was a pdf

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
i was to busy indulging myself in the wonderful world of accounting

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
http://gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/4.1/GunFacts4-1-Print.pdf

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
check that out, skim through it if you like

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
aight, gotta take a break of accou nting anyways

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
ahahah oy gevalt

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
even in my area, there are pretty much no gun control laws enacted

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
about 100,000 people here

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
we have had 5 murders in the past few years

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
3 of them stabbings

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
im not arguing the gun registry

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
im arguing the 2nd ammendmant

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
and gun control laws, aside of the registry

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
read my post

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
http://www.israelmilitary.net/showthread.php?t=1317

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
ok so your arguement is regarding full automatic firearms and AP rounds

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
no

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
no no

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
the type of guns then?

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
nop

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
all guns

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
i just used those as examples

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
are you against CCW in general?>

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
its based on pure fact

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
ccw?

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
carry concealed

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
yes

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
why

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
if you have a gun, plain and simple, you are more likely to use it

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
its the most logical concept, if u dont have a gun, you cant use it

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
am i more likely to run over someone if I have a car because I have road rage? Or kill someone because I carry a pocket knife?

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:

you can play with sentances all day, but we both know im right. less guns = less murders

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
gangsters with guns are gonna murder u whether you have a gun or not

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
After Florida passed their concealed carry law, Floridas homicide rate fell from 36 percent above the national average to 4 percent below the national average and remains below the national average to this day

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but by cutting off their purchasing resources

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
they cannopt have guns to kill me with

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
What about DC then? You can't even own a gun in DC yet look at the murder rates?

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
Why do we not have this kind of murder in Vermont?

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but their CCLaw came into effect after the 2nd ammendmant

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
why didn't we have the murder rate we do now in the 50's?

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
kids used to go to school with their shotguns

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
and we never had problesm

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
problems

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
you cant base murder rates on purged single variable facts

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
murders in every other 1st world country are significantly lower per capita then the US

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
simply because getting a gun is harder

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
showing internal US facts is useless

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
I just don't see how allowing people to conceal weapons makes the murder rate go up? It's been proven in statistics that murder rates have gone down yet all the major citys with gun control have the highest murder of any other city in the US with lax laws

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
because you cant compare something to itself

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
We're looking at a nation of 300 people in a very densely populated area

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
300 million

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
torotno, is as densly populated as any other american city

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
yet our gun violence rates are significant lower then the US

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
because we cant get our hands on guns, and when we do, we have very strict storage laws

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
so people cant steal em

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
and since they cant steal

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
they cant obtain

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
There are many people in canada who own illegal guns

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
that aren't registered

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
yup and they dont concele them

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
because if they get busted they are ****ed

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
Again how does concealment deter to the crime?

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
if you dont have a gun, you cant use it

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
and become a victim?

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
they wont have guns either

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
Thats not true at all

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
South Africa

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
gun control enacted

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
no one can have guns

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
yet people are being killed by blacks with guns

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
the fact is criminals don't turn in their guns

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
SA is not a 1st world nation

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
it was at one point

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
after apartheid fell, it went to ****

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
it never was because it was an apartheid state

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
lol ok so we'll blame gun violence on blacks

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
and canada has less blacks

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
therefore less violence

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
I'm not saying blacks are responsible for it

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
if you really wanna go about it that way

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
I'm saying the majority of the crimes commited in the US and South Africa are by blacks

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
however thats certain circumstances

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
ok, well i hate to be rascist but blacks are inherantly violent, so lets look at non-minority crime rates

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
sure

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
the US still topples any other country

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
in gun violence
מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
right, however lets take a look at where it's happening, whats being used, etc.

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
the majority of crimes are being commited in citys right?

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
they are mainly with handguns

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
yes

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
sure

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
9mm is the most popular round

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
most of these guns are stolen yes

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
however...

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
in areas where the guns are being controlled, the handguns believe it or not are being stolen from police and smuggled across the border

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
there are many cases police have had guns stolen

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
Also

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
gun buyback programs

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
gun buyback programs are supposed to buy the guns and destroy them

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
they are selling the guns back to criminals on the streets

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but why do people feel the need to have guns (stolen or not)? because they need to protect themselves with other people who have guns

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but if we take guns out of the situation

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
not true

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
criminals don't feel the need to protect themselves

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
they use those guns to get what they need

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
they use whatever tool they can to kill

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
we want to protect our selves from criminals

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
i see what your saying, but what caused this inherant violence in US citizens

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
and home invaders

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
and why has it stayed domestic

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
think of it this way

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
if everyones armed, whos going to try something? Afterall

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
everyone

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
if you were a criminal would you rather rob a home in Texas

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
or a home in Sweden

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
robbing a home in Texas is suicide

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
they know everyone has a gun

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
you have a point, but criminals arent logical people

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
or they wouldnt be stealing

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
they would get a job

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
right, but that leads me to ask why there isn't crime in my area?

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
or in these areas with lots of guns?

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
It makes little sense that Chicago has so much crime yet it's very difficult to get a gun there

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
or Los Angelos

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
very difficult once again to get a gun there

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but once again you are making internal suggestions

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
u can compare anything in the US, but you have to look at its fundamentals

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
the 2nd ammendmant

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
why are arabs so violent? because their parents teach them violence

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
so if you give aan arab a gun hel shoot a jew

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
right, however these laws aren't affecting criminals is what i'm saying. It's only taking away teh citizens right to protect themselves

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
saying "take away CCW" then law abiding citizens like myself can't defend ourselves

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
but the criminals don't follow that

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
they still conceal

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
and crime raises

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
because they know it's a peice of cake to rob aperson, they know for a fact that person will be unarmed

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
well, its to late for the US

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
because u cant take away peoples guns

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
well not oon mass scale

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
they are trying to do it now, they it it during hurricane katrina

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but im saying, allowing US mindset to spread elsewhere will increase violence

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
the people were left defenseless while cops shot the citizens and blacks looted houses and shot people

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
it's not about spreading our mindset. We want to remain the way we are and get rid of gun laws

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
the problem is the europeans keep trying to change our nation

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
and spread socialism

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
socialism won't work here

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
i agree with that

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
it's like saying "ban all guns in the middle east" it won't stop anything

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
the fact is, we're a nation of every culture and a violent nation

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
every nation has a violent past

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
imagine this tho. tommorow i became the president of the US

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
however here in the US the mindset is different, much different. Racism, gangs, drugs, all this fuels the war

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
and i invested 2 trillion dollars into removing every gun

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
it would never happen

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
now tommorow the cirminals will still have guns

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
yes

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
its hypothetical lemme finish

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
exactly

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
ok

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
however

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
the criminals still have guns, because they are criminals and thats what they do

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but now tommorow you can no longer purchase guns anywhere

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
so tell me what it looks like in 25 years

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
when those guns have slowly been confiscated

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
a few come in from cops and mexico

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but half of the blacks no longer have guns

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
half of these violent criminals can no longer get guns

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
to be honetst I don't think it would do anything. I'll give you an example regarding the UK and Australia where guns are completely banned for sale

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
maybe they will choose not to spend $3000 on a pistol, because the prices have inflated so much

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
even if guns were completely banned it's not that hard to make your own gun, very very simple

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
guides all over the internet

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
cmon, u cant just build a gun

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
you can

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
if u cant get bullets

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
it doesn't have to be bullets

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
shotguns use pellets

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
and shotguns are very effective

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
what the columbine killers used

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
sawed off shotguns

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
thats what their doing in china

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
lets be realistic, gangs will not build 500 guns

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
u can build nukes

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
if you wanted

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
right but anyone with access to a machine shop can build a gun

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
I've built ak47's before

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
very easy to do

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
i can built a bomb

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
you can get the metal receivers for 25 bucks

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
this is totally irational

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
ok

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
so

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
your saying basically the amount of guns is whats causing crime right?

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
no

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
im saying guns assosciated with american mentality is whats causing violence

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
so is it a deal of americans being incompetant?

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
nope

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
its a deal of black america and latino amerca and redneck america being incompitent... i know u arent gonna knock over a 7-11 for a pack of cigarettes

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but i cant take guns away from every black guy

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
its collective punishment for the crimes of a few

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
you know it's funny becaus

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
e11 percent of police shootings kill an innocent person compared to about 2 percent of shootings by citizens

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
well blame police training lol

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
the odds of a defensive gun user killing an innocent person are less than 1 in 26,000

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
citizens use guns to prevent crimes 2,500,000 times every year

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but if it saves 1 life isnt it worth it?

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
we both know those are totally scewed statstics

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
absolutely, for every person killed, 10 people are saved

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
why are they screwed?

 

[PILMAN]

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
scewed

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
not screwed

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
why are my statistics wrong but the anti gun statistics are right?

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
no ur stats are right

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but ur missing the other haldf

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
my father used his gun to defend our family during a burglary

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
he shot the guy, he lived

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
those 2.5 million people protected themselves against crimes

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
the guy was armed with a .357 revolver

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
how many of those crimes were perpetrated by gun owners?

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
theres a perfect example

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
what if that guy couldnt get his revolver

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
if we wer eunarmed

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
he could have shot us all

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
and we wouldn't be here today

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
what if u both were unarmed

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
and why would he be unarmed?

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
because if the right decisions had been made originally

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
there are areas in the US cops won't even go because it's so bad

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
he couldnt get a gun

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
precicely

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
once again, we are making internal suggestions

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
all i'm saying is we don't know that

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
but the fact is, my father protected us

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
had he not had that gun

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
we would have been dead

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
thats undeniable

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
or he woulda robbed u and no one woulda been shot

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but regardless

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
why take the risk?

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
we cant make assumptions

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
people will have guns

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but by reducing the number that do

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
will reduce gun violence

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
its simple logic

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
again why hasn't the reduction done anything in DC then?

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
62 deaths per 100,000?

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
no one can own a gun

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
why is crime raising in the UK?

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
after guns were banned?

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
muslims

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
lol

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
its 3rd world mentality bro

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
A gun is an inanimate object

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
rich areas have less violence then poor areas

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
so something needs to be done to restrict giving poor people

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
the ability to kill each other

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but it will be at the expense of everyone

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
and why should poor people not be able to have the ability to protect themselves?

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
because if no poor people have guns

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
then no poor people will need to protect themselves

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
it's not the poor people killing themselves

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
have you seen some of the drug dealers involved in the killings?

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
they are rich

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
very rich

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
what they are doing is stealing stuff to sell for money so they canb uy drugs

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
you know what i mean by rich people

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
resell on the street

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
hitler was rich

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
arafat was too

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but im not talking about people who profit off of bloodshed

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
im talking about people who make an honest living

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
Lower income individuals are exposed to more violent crime than those from higher income households. Persons with household incomes of less than 35,000 dollars per year live with significantly higher violent crime rates when compared with those who had household incomes of 35,000 dollars or more per year. Thus the higher incidence of gun violence is a reflection of the overall higher violent crime

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
rate in poor communities not the presence of guns

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
gangland drug profits and territorial battle play a huge role in violent crimes and are the leading cause of criminal firearm misuse (and lower income communities are areas of disproportionately high drug use and sales). In Oakland California where gun violence has newly erupted, 47 percent of murderers tested positive for drugs

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
im not saying u dont have a point... you need a gun, you have evidence of it, but what im saying is that you cant blame people for choosing for harsher gun laws. If we didnt have em in the Canada, we would turn in to the US, gun control laws save lives, its plain and simple

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
i can throw facts at you too

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
68 percent of victims tested positive for drugs and 85 percent of cases involved illegal activities. In San Francisco, victims with criminal histories tested positive for drugs 2.4 times more often than victims without criminal backgrounds

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but just use logic here

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
no guns = no murders

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
I don't think thats true at all

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
no gun related murder**

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
we had something called the dark ages

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
people died by the sword

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
lol

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
i'm saying, criminals will always innovate a way to kill a person to get theri way

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
precicely, so why give them the tools

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
we don't allow them to

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
they get them illegally

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
but why should we suffer because of criminals

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
thats what i'm saying

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
in my area I feel safe

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
I can walk around with or without my gun

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
thats the beauty of it, I have the choice

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
because we are armed, we have no worrys of crime here.

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
The only purpose here for our guns now besides preventing crime is in the event of a economic crisis or war

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but we are disarmed, we have no worries of crime here either

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
i cant get a gun, well i can, its very expensive and very difficult

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
right but if canadians could carry concealed do you think there would be a increase in crime?

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
yup

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
id prolly kill people myself

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
whys that? Do you really think people in general are too stupid to carry a gun?.

 

[PILMAN]

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
yes!

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
See thats why I can't stand socialism, they believe we should be a nation of serfs and rely on our government

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
let the govt be our nanny

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
What about education?

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
I was raised as a kid to use a gun, don't you believe people who are raised to fear guns end up knowing nothing about them?

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
and end up using them in crime?

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
Afterall how many kids use a gun and actually grew up around them>?

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
nobody here has guns, and nobody here kills each other with em, with very few exceptions

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
Well how about this then

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
before Canada introduced gun licensing

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
what was the crime like

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
ive already agreed with u gun licencing is useless

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
u dont need to argue it

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
right

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
i'm just saying before canada imposed gun control

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
was crime any higher?

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but since canada introduced gun control using formal restraint. based on comparative big cities without it, canadian gun violence perpertrated by numerous individuals, not one commiting lots of himicides is SIGNIFICANTLY lower than its counterparts

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
what year did canada incorporate gun control laws?

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
I believe 1977

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
after canadas 1977 gun control laws prohibiting handgun possesion for protection, the breaking and entering crime rate rose 25 percent surpassing the american rate (I think in that year specifically)

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
in 1977 the general populace was much more scarce

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
breaking and entering has nothing to do with guns

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
why not?

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
because the perps didnt use guns

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
so criminals don't use guns in canada?

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
not as many

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
In Canada around 1920 before there was any form of gun control, their homicide rate was 7 percent that of the US, by 1986 and
significant gun control legislation, canadas homicide rate was 35 percent that of the US - a significant increase. in 2003 canada had a violent crime rate more than double that of the US (963 vs 475 per 100,000)

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
in 1920 canada's major cities were very sparcly populated

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
and the US's werent


Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
in 1986 both canada and the us had very cramped major cities

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
right, but still the increase is interesting

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
This is what I think personally....

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
I think whats happening is

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
im not disagreeing with u

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
Criminals are stealing guns your right, they steal guns from people

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
but

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
when a politician says "we need to disarm people" the problem is, they are only disarming people who are just trying to protect their family

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
these people aren't responsible for the crime

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
no but u need to give it time

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
so what happens is it creates a increase in crime, it creates an unstable situation

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
right away the scales will be unbalanced

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but over time, people become less violent

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
we gave it time, during 1994 to 2004 the assault weapon ban, it was our highest peak of crime ever

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
when the AWB expired, our crime rates dropped like a rock

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
they banned imports, certain ammo, handgun restrictions

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
if i have a gun and am planning to rob you, if i know u have a gun, i am much more likely to shoot u

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
they are still going to shoot you

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
they already commited a felony

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
shooting someone won't add much more time

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
the fact is

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
I know my way around my house

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
a criminal doesn't

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
I'm trained to use a gun, more than likely a criminal isn't

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
A criminals probably going to hold it sideways and say "giv meh yo munny nigga"

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
and not hit worth a ****

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
it's all about "who strikes first"

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
in home invasions, doing nothing guarantees a negative result

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
having a gun, you have nothing to lose, you just have more of a chance

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
thats all

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
equal opportunity

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
just a question

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
i disagree, but i cant argue anymore because this isnt going anywhere purely based on the fdact that u have a perspective of someone who lives with very little gun control, and i live somewhere that there is gun control

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
I don't know if you are Jewish , if you are

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
yea i am

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
surely you must have a feeling of wanting to defend yourself in the event our governments turn on us yes?

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
the jews in warsaw ghetto killed over 2000 nazis

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
very few jews

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
imagine 6 million of them armed

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
wartime situations call for a whole different argument

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
yes however think of it from this perspective

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
Our military, the most powerful military in the world cannot defeat a bunch of ragheads with ak47's and bombs

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
we're killing mainly civilians

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
because the terrorists blend in

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
guerilla warfare changes the fight

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
if they can do it

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
surely 80 million + american gun owners can

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
in the event that were to happen

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but were not in guerilla warfare, when i go to the army this summer, i will take a whole different stance

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but there arent ragheads here with guns, because my gov't has made sure they cant own them

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
right, but in the event the government turns on the american people

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
not everyones going to be armed, the military can't kill everyone

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
ok, but imagine if aliens attack us

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
my point is, an armed population has prevented genocides from happening

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but an armed population has also commited those very genocides

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
how so?

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
military sponsored?

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
nope

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
the nazis were the german military at the time

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
well define military

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
because anyone can make a gov't and have a military

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
military would be government sponsored

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
yes they can

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
but if their not recognized?

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
Nazi Germany was recognized

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
look at every arab country in the world

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
why are they in such ****holes?

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
besides being ****ing dumbasses

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
they all have guns and bombs and they massacre each othere

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
i dont give a **** if they kill each other

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
depends what we're talking about really, the arabs killing each other are 2 different sects

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
sunni, shiite

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but then they turn on us

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
then yes we need guns

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but imagine if they didnt have guns to kill us with

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
then we wouldnt need guns

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
they have suicide bombers

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
IED's are leading cause of death in iraq

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but without the guns they arent gonna have IED's because they require a basic method of self defence in order to sustain large scale attacks

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
whys that? They dress like civilians

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
they run towards a highway

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
bury it near a dead animal and hide in bushes, detonate it

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
no need for a gun when they do that

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
US troops can't be everywhere at once

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
ok but once aghain we've moved towards war time

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
im saying look at a very close by example

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
Detroit and London ontario

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
they are 2 miles from each other

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
ok

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
detroit has how many gun deaths?

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
hundreds

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
london has how many? i think 4 in the past 7 or 8 years

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
both big cities

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
both slummy ****holes

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
you know handguns are banned in Detroit right?

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but people have them

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
law abiding citziens don't

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
because they havent been removed from them

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
criminals do

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
yes but criminals cant get guns here

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
so they dont kill people with em

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
its purely factual, look at a statstic

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
actually

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
90 percent of all violent crimes in the US do not involve a firearm of any type

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
BATF released those statistics

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
and they are hardly pro gun

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but 10% OF CRIMES EQUATE TO 12,000 dead

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
*caps

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
even in crimes where the offender psosessed a gun during the commission of the crime, 83 percent did not use or even threaten to use the gun

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
actually, those statistics include criminals that were shot by home owners

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
as well

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
also

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
two thirds of the people who die each year from gunfire are criminals being shot by other criminals

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
what if those cirminals had no guns?!

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
send me to canada, give me some PCP and put me around a family with money

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
i'll likely kill someone just to get drug money won't I?

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
yea, but what if u dont have a gun to kill with?

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
but I just stated 90 percent of all violent crimes didn't involve a firearm?

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
so they didn't even need a gun to commit the crime

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
brb gotta print something, gimme 2

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
k

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
hi, sorry, exam prep ****...

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
np

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
ok violence is indictive of all humans

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but without the tools

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
violence will havbe afar less likely chance of being fatal

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
then why is only 10 percent of crime involved a firearm in the US?

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
violent crime that is

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
well u have to find out why americans are so much more violent then everyone else, which i cant answer

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
its not americans in general though it's the criminals

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
thats what i'm saying

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
I have a gun, I don't want to kill someone

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
it's here as a life insurance policy if I need it

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
if I have to kill someone if my life is in danger thats what its there for

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
or someone breaks into my home

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
having a gun doesn't make someone violent

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but if nobody has guns

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
they nobody will be killed

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
i understand americans have guns

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
....

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but why should you trey to stop people who dont think they should?

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
I just said 90 percent of violent crime didn't involve a gun though

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
thats what i'm pointing out

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
i know

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but 90% in the us is 99.9% here

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
Think of it this way

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
a gun is a tool right?

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
it has the capability to kill

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
so does a car

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
why do we trust people with cars?


מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
they are required to have a license

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
register their car

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
we dont, but cars are a necessity

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
yet you are 33 times more likely to be killed by a car

 

[SnWnMe]

I'll offer an opinion as soon as I sort out the gibberish mixed in with the discussion.

 

[PILMAN]

Alright i'll try to fix it up a bit, one moment

 

[Dravur]

I want

20 minutes of my life back

 

[PILMAN]

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
guns are not

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
ok then lets narrow it down

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
why does anyone need a sports car like a ferrari

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
or a lamborghini

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
aren't those more capable of causing accident?

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
or a car that goes over 80?

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
people should just have minivans, then no more accidents

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
accident is different then perpetrated gun violence

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
i can drop a bowling ball on ur head

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
there are still far more deaths by automobiles than guns

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
but i can shoot u with a .50

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
more people die in swimming pools or falling down the stairs than guns

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
yea but more people swim then shoot

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
actually

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
there are less swimming pools in the US than guns

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
there are more guns in the US than cars

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
more people drive then shoot

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
just because u own a gun doesnt mean u walk around shooting

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
exactly

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
my point is, it's how you use the gun

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
brb again, p.s. u missed my point

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
the average person doesn't go into a gunshop, buy a gun then say "hmm I want to kill someone" or "hmm I want to rob someone"

Mike/Div has been added to the conversation.

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
hey Mike

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
what i'm saying Sammy is, why ban guns saying "over time" murder will stop? Why risk it?

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
As we allow more law abiding citizens to own guns, we're preventing crime

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
Every year in the US, people use a gun to defend themselves against criminals an estimated 2,500,000 times, more than 6,500 people a day or once every 13 seconds. Of these instances, 15.6 percent of the people using a firearm defensively stated that they almost certainly saved their lives by doing so.

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
83.5 percent of the time (2,087.500) of these successful gun defense teh attacked either threatened or used force first, proving that gunsare very well suited for self-defense.

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
the pros outweigh the cons

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
However your arguement is that if nobody had guns, there would be no more deaths by them. The problem is, even after 25 years if they were banned, yes criminals would likely be cracked down on but ....

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
it's about as effective as our war on drugs

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
k im back

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
how long have we fought the war on drugs? It's done nothing

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
i gotta go tho, so il leave you with this. If we didnt have guns we wouldnt have gun violence, canada is an example. i understand that americans have guns therefore u feel u need them i wont argue with that, but gun control in the form of gun reduction has been proven to work

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
well

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
so with that sed i go study

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
if you have time check out this video sometime

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
http://************************guncontrol-416x312.wmv

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
it was made by jews for preservation of firearm ownership

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
watched it

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
any opinions?


Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
to long

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
ahahaha

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
its one sided

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
how so?

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
i cant agree or disagree because hundsight is 20/20

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
hindsight**

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
if you lived in the US

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
would you be armed?

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
yes

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
because the US ****ed up

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
its 18th century idealisms its a 21st century society

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
so you would own one out of fear of your life to protect yourself

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
but let me ask you this

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
its as bad as arabs saying they should persecute jews

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
why? a criminal can steal it from you right?


Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
i gotta run tho, but il be back dont u worry

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
ok

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
take it easy bro

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
yep same

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 says:
peace

מאיר כהן - Mr Mushroom says:
shalom

Sammy- gonna fail ACC 406 has left the conversation

 

[never_summer]

well after reading all of that i think the guy is actually trying to argue that guns shouldnt have been invented haha

 

[-terry]

This is the first time that I have heard this kind of discussion that was reasonable and didn't degenerate into name calling or worse. Interesting points on both sides.

 

[Erebus]

His core argument is flawed. He claims that if guns are banned then overtime they and their associated crimes would completely disappear. I think illegal drugs and the complete flop that was prohibition proves otherwise.

Great Britain enjoyed a brief decrease in gun violence when they made guns almost impossible to acquire legally. However the black market has begun to find ways to fill the demand for illegal guns and their gun crime rates are back on the rise.

 

[BIGDADDYLONGSTROKE]

wow!

 

[xJumper]

If I missed it I apologize, but why was the Canadian so interested in our Constitution?

 

[razorburn]

??? Are blacks inherently violent like jews are inherently conniving and greedy?

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Pilman, Dude!

You need to sit down with a text editor or word processor and remove the chaff so the dialog is discernable.

It's next to unreadable in its current form.

And I actually want to read it.

 

[trickyasafox]

I think you should throw the alchohol argument in there. Alchohol serves no real purpose. people don't need it like they need to drive. then talk about prohibition and how it caused more violence, and did nothing to curve the booze influx.

now i honestly think you can't get this person to concede, because everytime you make a point, they just respond with "yea america is f'd up" it's the cop out. he/she won't allow a point to be made, because they'll fall back on the "well thats a US only problem."

 

[PILMAN]

??? Are blacks inherently violent like jews are inherently conniving and greedy?

Absolutely not, while most of the crime is black on black in the US that is not to say that all blacks are violent. It's just like any stereotype. There are greedy Jews out there as well (Yeah I am Jewish) and there are good Jews. My overall point wasn't to make it sound like blacks are savages or something.

 

[HiroProX]

The anti's first error was his blanket assumption that the US is just like everywhere else. It isn't.

Makes one wonder why so many people in first world countries are so ignorant about the US.

 

[razorburn]

I wasn't singling you out in particular. It just struck a strange tune to hear jews talking about how blacks are inherently violent. I guess it's fairly common. Hispanics talking about blacks, blacks talking about hispanics. As a physically indistinct minority in these modern times, some things don't bother you as much.

 

[jeepmor]

A jew arguing FOR gun bans, does that guy know any history. One of my favorite lines ever is.....

...Not an American Jew, but one of those Middle Eastern, hold my machine gun while I take a piss, Jews....

Not sure where I heard that, but it fits what I think each and every Jewish person that ever studied high school history should embrace.

No offense meant whatsoever, but of all faiths throughout the ages, Jews, IMO, should be the most adamant proponents of guns of anyone walking this earth.

Also, a jewish engineer I used to work for said something quite interesting also regarding jews and guns and online gaming. He stated,

"When I play first person shooting games, I like to play on a German server if at all possible, there's just something satisfying for me as a Jew, to know that I'm shooting real Germans, even if it's only a game."

Again, no offense, just sharing. But my exposure to the Jewish people where I work is really summed up in these two statements whole heartedly. Intel has a fab in Israel, so I've seen many of the middle eastern variety of Jews rather than the American anti-gun types.

 

[willbrink]

Send them here: Jews for the preservation of firearms:

http://www.jpfo.org/

 

[LeafsFan]

Sounds like his argument is that we should destroy every firearm ever made, and then burn the plans so we can't make any more and this will stop criminals from breaking into your home, mugging you on the street, raping your wife, or otherwise attacking you or your loved ones.

Your buddy needs a reality check, eh? Criminals don't do these things just because they happen to own guns. They do them because they're impoverished and desperate, and don't see any other way of surviving. Or they're hooked on drugs and need a fix. Or, in the case of rapists/murderers, because they're psychologically damaged.

However, I'm pretty sure that if the anti's ultimate dream of de-gunning society comes true, criminals would simply revert to the previous level of weapons-technology to attack you with - knives, baseball bats, slingshots, crossbows, garrots, spears, pitchforks, pointed sticks... and I would be forced to defend myself using the same level of technology, just like I do today with my gun. And this is precicely what society has done since the dawn of time.

Unfortunately, magically disappearing all guns is just as flawed a plan as taking a handful of antacids to stop a severe stomach ulcer... you've got to stop obsessing over the symptom of "gun violence" and treat the actual cause of that violence. And that cause is not the mere existance of guns.

The only sane thing to do is focus on what causes criminals to do what they do and see if you can't find a way to reduce that root cause at its source. Might not ever happen, but it's far more constructive and helpful to society as a whole than to devote so much time and money to the false-hope of banning guns.

ok, well i hate to be rascist but blacks are inherantly violent

I sincerely hope he was only joking. He didn't sound like he hated to be racist...

 

[PILMAN]

Unfortunately this is how most of my debates end, it's always "but if guns didn't exist, then no one could kill each other" comment. I mentioned 3 different times than only 10 percent of our violent crimes, firearms were involved. I got intact with him through MSN as I posted on a IDF (Israel Defense Forces) forum, and he is a Canadian Jew. We had a dispute about gun control and I asked if I could message him on MSN and discuss the matter with him.

 

[LeafsFan]

"but if guns didn't exist, then no one could kill each other"

So is he saying that there wasn't a single murder in world history until the first firearm was invented?

I know how you feel though, I've spoken to a few people who honestly do believe that if you eliminate guns people across the land will stop killing each other.

It's easier to attack the device used to commit the crime than to deal with the actual causes of the crime itsself.

 

[Baba Louie]

Pilman, as you and I know, if guns didn't exist we'd make a stick w/ a stone lashed to one end of it and use that for self defense or any other number of objects, like a flintknapped piece of sharpened stone or a pewter candlestick or... well, you know. I know you know. And some ner-do-well would do the same to rob some defenseless law abiding citizen. If guns were outlawed in this country and every law abiding citizens turned over every last one of them, there's be the black market, there'd be someone with a lathe and a milling machine, some chemist making up some explosive powder, someone shaping brass and melting lead.

What we strive for is a balance, where the children of Ares and the children of Aphrodite come together in a state of Harmonia. (I'm currently reading Heckler's work, "In Search of the Warrior Spirit" and I stole that from him)

I suppose Cain slew his brother Abel (some ancient myth I read somewhere) because of jealousy over a matter of religion. You might ask your friend "Maybe the world would be a better place if there was no religion?" But as you and I know, someone would then just come up with one, or two, or three and we'd be back to square one again. Sorta like... today's world-wide situation.

And dude, you gotta find some way to compress/edit. But thanks for the read. And the fight. It's a good fight and a hard row (road?) to hoe.

 

[PILMAN]

Pilman, as you and I know, if guns didn't exist we'd make a stick w/ a stone lashed to one end of it and use that for self defense or any other number of objects, like a flintknapped piece of sharpened stone or a pewter candlestick or... well, you know. I know you know. And some ner-do-well would do the same to rob some defenseless law abiding citizen. If guns were outlawed in this country and every law abiding citizens turned over every last one of them, there's be the black market, there'd be someone with a lathe and a milling machine, some chemist making up some explosive powder, someone shaping brass and melting lead.

What we strive for is a balance, where the children of Ares and the children of Aphrodite come together in a state of Harmonia. (I'm currently reading Heckler's work, "In Search of the Warrior Spirit" and I stole that from him)

I suppose Cain slew his brother Abel (some ancient myth I read somewhere) because of jealousy over a matter of religion. You might ask your friend "Maybe the world would be a better place if there was no religion?" But as you and I know, someone would then just come up with one, or two, or three and we'd be back to square one again. Sorta like... today's world-wide situation.

And dude, you gotta find some way to compress/edit. But thanks for the read. And the fight. It's a good fight and a hard row (road?) to hoe.

I think he might be Atheist, many Jews who are Atheist still relate to being a Jew racially or ethnically/culturally.

As for the gun arguement, he's claiming if we banned guns that there would be a rise in violence but after 25 years, it would get harder and harder and harder to get a gun and more expensive to the point eventually no one would have a gun to kill each other. I explained it would only be a matter of time before people started manufacturing their own guns. It's not that difficult to make a shotgun, heck folks in China have done it.

The Israelis themselves built stens and bullets from lipstick tubes.