My Krazy Cowboy Carbine idea

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

It's been rollin around in the noggin awhile, taking shape, but I think I'm really gonna do this one within a year or so, instead of just talk about it:

Rifle/Action: Colt Lightning replica (Uberti, Cimmarron, Beretta, etc)

Action type: Pump/Slide, repeater

Chambering: .45 Colt

Barrel: Licensed SBR'ed and gunsmith-shortened to 12" (along with shortening the mag tube to same length), threaded

Suppresser: Yes, .45 Cal

Stock: Original straight grip buttstock will be replaced with a self-fabricated walnut stock which has both buttstock and separate pistol grip fabricated as a one-piece unit (from a single block of wood).

Sights: Trijicon RMR, fiber optic version (of course; what else would a cowboy use?)

Dude!

Top questions are gonna include:

1. Which gunsmith to use to shorten both barrel and mag tube and re-weld them together? (someone comfortable with SBR process)
2. Which base rifle to use (leaning toward Cimmaron)?
3. 10" or 12" barrel?
4. Which .45 Cal suppressor?

Please chime in if you can answer any of these.

This will be the ultimate low-light-of-sight, semi-PC, lightweight, uber-handy, super-ergo, quick-cycling, cheap-to-reload (cast bullets and durable brass), close range, home defense, hunting, silent, tactical, critter-killin, big-bore thumpin, fun range carbine ever made!

Probably shoot mostly subsonics (around 1050 fps) with 250-300 grainers. This rifle ain't something you'd see every day at the range.

 

[shibby]

are you going to paint this rifle all white?

 

[MachIVshooter]

I dunno about your questions, but the image conjured in my head of the weapon itself is some hideous lovechild of an AK and a pump shotgun.

I can see doing the SBR bit with it, but the rest......... That'd be like laser grips and a rail on a S&W Schofield. Some guns just aren't meant to be tacticool-ized, IMO. Those that helped tame the American West are definitely in that group.

 

[black_powder_Rob]

i would go with the 12" barrel over the 10". THe 2" will give more ammo capacity. This sounds interesting can't wiat to see the pics.

 

[ATCDoktor]

Register one of these as an SBR , put a stock on it and your 2/3 there.


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=166052215


Shortening the mag tube and threading the barrel would be all that's left to do.

This is something I've been thinking about as well.

I have been eyeballing the Mare's leg lever guns for this type of project but the slide action from AWA looks interesting as well.

I may do both.

For a gunsmith I would use Mike Stannard at Tornado technologies.

He's shortened and threaded lever guns and the mag tubes for people in the past and is very good.

 

[Tommygunn]

Cut off the barrel? ------------------> WHY?
Suppress it?-------------------------> WHY?
Paint it white?------------------> Ewwwwwww!

The Colt Lightning is called "the rifle that should have won the west." I have a Taurus repro of the gun. They're nice guns. Why are you planning on doing this? Are you making props for a FIREFLY comeback?
I guess if you want to .... I can't see why.

 

[Badlander]

Go for it!! Can't wait to see the results.

 

[PotatoJudge]

Might be cool in 45 acp. Subsonic, dirt cheap brass, you can still load heavy bullets, and your mag capacity goes up significantly. Would take some re-engineering to make it feed, which would likely be prohibitive. Still fun to think about.

 

[Acera]

ATCDoktor wonder if the ATF thinks that thing is 100% legal. It looks like a pistol designed for use by two hands, verboten, just like putting a fore grip on your light rail..........right??

 

[Jim Watson]

1. ...shorten both barrel and mag tube and re-weld them together?

They aren't welded together in the first place. Suggest more study of tubular magazine rifles before detail planning.

2. Which base rifle to use (leaning toward Cimmaron)?

I don't know of any of the Lightning repros that works well enough to spend money on.
Maybe there have been great strides made since I shot CAS last.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I don't know of any of the Lightning repros that works well enough to spend money on.

Oh, the Uberti is a really nice rifle. But it's also over a grand.

http://www.uberti.com/firearms/lightning.php

Don't know that I'd buy such a nice gun with the intention of hacking it up into some futuristic baron-wasteland-found-it-and-cobbled-it-together-because-it's-the-best-I-could-do looking conglomeration. But to each his own.

wonder if the ATF thinks that thing is 100% legal. It looks like a pistol designed for use by two hands, verboten, just like putting a fore grip on your light rail..........right??

It's not considered a grip, but a handgaurd (heat shield). And don't go writing letters to ATF asking about it, lest they change their current stance and classsify the thing as an AOW. It's happened before.

 

[hammerklavier]

If you weld the suppressor on, does that count as a permanent muzzle attachment?

 

[ATCDoktor]

Acera, in it's present form, it's 100% legal and it's considered a Title I handgun.

It was never manufactured as a Rifle (these specific guns from AWA are all made from recievers that the manufacturer built up as handguns).

To put a stock on it all you would have to do is register it as a Short Barreled Rifle (complete an ATF form 1 and pay the 200.00 tax and process the paperwork through ATF).

From that point on it's a short barreled rifle.

Reference your question about being designed to use two hands to fire, the forearm on this specific firearm could be no more considered a forward grip than the forearms/handguards on a Sig 556 Pistol, the Kel Tec PLR 16 Pistol or any of the AR 15 family of pistols.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Jim, if it's not gonna be 99.44% reliable, then I'm gonna go with a levergun instead of a pump, so more research is definitely in order on the Uberti, etc., to see if they are, as you say, worth spending money on (in addition to the construction -- no weld, thank you -- issues).

Cut off the barrel? ------------------> WHY?
Suppress it?-------------------------> WHY?

What part of this

This will be the ultimate low-light-of-sight, semi-PC, lightweight, uber-handy, super-ergo, quick-cycling, cheap-to-reload (cast bullets and durable brass), close range, home defense, hunting, silent, tactical, critter-killin, big-bore thumpin, fun range carbine ever made!

did you not understand?

But to be more specific:

"Cut off the barrel? Why?" Because you get 95% of the performance in a lighter handier more ergo package. Big bores rely very very little on barrel length to gain velocity past 5-8 inches, and reducing the mag capacity from 8 or 9 or whatever down to 4 or 5 is just not an issue for me - that's plenty more than enough capacity for my uses. I'm not gonna fight the Taliban with this thing.

"Suppress it? WHY?" Why does anyone suppress anything? Same reasons. Quieter. More fun. Can shoot without ears on. Cool. Tacticool, in fact.

Don't know that I'd buy such a nice gun with the intention of hacking it up into some futuristic baron-wasteland-found-it-and-cobbled-it-together-because-it's-the-best-I-could-do looking conglomeration. But to each his own.

No, no, I don't know that you would either. But I know that *I* most definitely would, and will, if Uberti is a reliable machine - can you point me to any discussions with credible evidence that the Uberti runs like a top? Thanks. And it won't look too terribly cobbled. It's gonna have high-quality 'smithing on the barrel and tube mag reductions, good smithing on the mount for my RMR, a high quality suppressor, a high quality optic, and the self-fabricated buttstock will be done and finished nicely to match the wood forearm grip. Will probably commission some checkering and such. It WILL look funky, but not cheap.

It's not considered a grip, but a handgaurd (heat shield). And don't go writing letters to ATF asking about it, lest they change their current stance and classsify the thing as an AOW. It's happened before.

Yes, this - excellent advice.

If you weld the suppressor on, does that count as a permanent muzzle attachment?

Oooh, now that's an interesting question - might could save me $200 on the SBR. 12" bbl plus 4 or more inch permanent suppressor = regular rifle. On second thought, I'd rather pay the $200 and not do that, so that (a) I can hunt with the rifle without the suppressor, and (b) I can use the suppressor on other things.

 

[Acera]

ATCDoktor not real sure you understand what I am saying.

The plastic pieces on the front of pistol ARs, Sig 556 pistol, Kel-Tech etc. are not grips. If they were grips then those weapons would have to be registered as an AOW, so they are heat shields or something like that. Hence, same reason you can not legally add a pistol grip to any of those guns rails without having the proper stamp.

Now while it is most common to see this violation in the form of a vertical grip, I am wondering if it can also be interpreted for a purpose designed grip, like on that pistol. The lever action version does not have the same issue, and is probably what you are thinking about, but with that piece of wood, designed to be gripped and used to actuate the action it might run afoul of the law.

I fully understand the process that brought that pistol to life, I am not sure the manufacturer is fully aware of how a over zealous ATF official might view it.

Quote:
It's not considered a grip, but a handgaurd (heat shield). And don't go writing letters to ATF asking about it, lest they change their current stance and classsify the thing as an AOW. It's happened before.
Yes, this - excellent advice.

Yeah guys that is real highroad. Ok we think this might be illegal, don't stir the pot and we all find out it is?? LOL, If it were illegal, I would want to know beforehand, and not after. Not real sure if that is the way we ought to be doing things here.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Wait a minute - what the heck am I saying, RMR? Obviously this thing will HAVE to have night-vision capable optics.

The Colt Lightning is called "the rifle that should have won the west."

Exactly - it WOULD HAVE, had it had my improvements to it!

 

[Abel]

It looks like a pretty dumb idea. Several times over. But, its your money. I'm all for it.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Looks like a Cool Idea to me Dr. TW.

 

[jmorris]

If you weld the suppressor on, does that count as a permanent muzzle attachment?

Yes it does. It can save you $200 on the SBR stamp but you also can't move the suppressor from gun to gun either.

cheap-to-reload (cast bullets and durable brass),

Bad idea with a suppressor. However if you do you must make certain that you can take the can apart for cleaning.


Here is one I built that is welded with the end cap off it's 16.125".

 

[jmorris]

Quote:
It's not considered a grip, but a handgaurd (heat shield). And don't go writing letters to ATF asking about it, lest they change their current stance and classsify the thing as an AOW. It's happened before.
Yes, this - excellent advice.


Yeah guys that is real highroad. Ok we think this might be illegal, don't stir the pot and we all find out it is?? LOL, If it were illegal, I would want to know beforehand, and not after. Not real sure if that is the way we ought to be doing things here.

I think what they are saying is that the BATFE has a (long) history of saying things are OK then later reversing the decision. Think of the "less is more" concept when it comes to making or making up laws that will limit us.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Hey Jmorris - thanks - will lead buildup in the suppressor be bad with cast bullets, *even* if subsonic loads, you think?

Funny how the responses are all very positive or very negative - you either love the idea or you hate it - no in between.

 

[lions]

3. 10" or 12" barrel?

ballisticsbytheinch

I would go with 10" from this data.

 

[garyhan]

If you decide to go the lever gun route, check out Oregon Research Labs LLC. He has subppressed SBR Rossi .44 mags read to go.

gary

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Thanks a lot Gary - I wonder if they'd do one in .45 Colt. It has to be .45 Colt. I'll ask them.

 

[MachIVshooter]

It's not considered a grip, but a handgaurd (heat shield). And don't go writing letters to ATF asking about it, lest they change their current stance and classsify the thing as an AOW. It's happened before.

Yes, this - excellent advice.

Yeah guys that is real highroad. Ok we think this might be illegal, don't stir the pot and we all find out it is?? LOL, If it were illegal, I would want to know beforehand, and not after. Not real sure if that is the way we ought to be doing things here.

I think what they are saying is that the BATFE has a (long) history of saying things are OK then later reversing the decision. Think of the "less is more" concept when it comes to making or making up laws that will limit us.

Exactly.

Example:

You used to be able to buy a pistol, then a Mec-Tec or other carbine conversion kit, and change it back and forth whenever you wanted. Then all of a sudden, ATF decided that unless the gun was bought as a carbine kit, once you convert the pistol to the rifle, you can't go back to pistol without first registering it as an SBR.