My Local Gun Store is Against Concealed Carry
- Thread starter The Filthy Spitoon
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concealed carry in the local gun shop
I live in Columbus Ohio and carry most of the time. The gun shop that I visit requires that you weapon be holstered and no round in the chamber. Makes since to me!
I live in Columbus Ohio and carry most of the time. The gun shop that I visit requires that you weapon be holstered and no round in the chamber. Makes since to me!
Oh, really? Do they provide a "safe" area for clearing the chamber? Do they have a discharge barrel where each customer can go clear? Or do the make everyone visiting their shop stop, draw their weapon, clear it, and re-holster -- while sitting in their parking lot?
I'm an IDPA match director. Every month we have 30-40 shooters show up on Sunday morning, most of them carrying the guns they intend to shoot in the match. We run a "cold" range (no one loads until they're on the line, ready to shoot a stage) so everyone who carries to the match must clear their gun before registering. We've seen what happens when you force a lot of folks to clear guns. You see guns drawn in cars, behind trees, in the porta-john, behind a plywood shed, or just wherever they find that seems more or less safe -- or at least out of sight. It isn't a pretty picture. Muzzles going every which way. No safety officer watching to enforce proper handling or adequate choice of backstop.
So, because these guys and gals MUST clear, we provide an entire separate "hot" pistol bay where everyone has to go clear before entering to register.
Does your shop have something like that? Or have they simply pushed a problem they created out into the public right-of-way?
A holstered gun is a safe gun, loaded chamber or not. I trust 650,000 folks in my state alone to walk around me with holstered, concealed firearms every day. I would NOT trust all of those 650,000 to unload and clear their weapons needlessly multiple times a day in random public locations. (Like the parking lot outside your shop.) Negligent discharges happen when folks fool with their carry guns needlessly. (Many toilets in Utah have died this way...) Why would a gun shop have a fit about carrying in their shop, which is safe, but insist on HANDLING/MANIPULATING the gun in public, which ISN'T?
DOESN'T make sense to me!
-Sam
I don't get the ridiculous rationale behind banning CC in a gun store.
What difference does it make if a customer acts carelessly (sweeping store workers and/or other customers with the muzzle, etc.) with his carry gun or with a display gun? Guns should always be treated as if they are loaded even when you think they're not. It is the gun store/salespersons responsibility to correct and inform that customer as to the proper handling of firearms on the spot in either case.
My guess is that this policy is more money driven than anything else. They don't want to risk losing a sale by correcting a potential customer's dangerous habits so they avoid responsibility by banning CC across the board for everyone.
Sounds eerily familiar to an anti-gun politician who takes the easy road out by touting gun bans because he doesn't want to risk losing votes by emphasizing responsible behavior.
What difference does it make if a customer acts carelessly (sweeping store workers and/or other customers with the muzzle, etc.) with his carry gun or with a display gun? Guns should always be treated as if they are loaded even when you think they're not. It is the gun store/salespersons responsibility to correct and inform that customer as to the proper handling of firearms on the spot in either case.
My guess is that this policy is more money driven than anything else. They don't want to risk losing a sale by correcting a potential customer's dangerous habits so they avoid responsibility by banning CC across the board for everyone.
Sounds eerily familiar to an anti-gun politician who takes the easy road out by touting gun bans because he doesn't want to risk losing votes by emphasizing responsible behavior.
Some will say that the word "excellent" was coined because "perfect" is often a utopian dream. We can't always provide the best environment and expect perfect compliance, but I agree that firearms owners must be held to a higher standard.
My local dealer has a sign that says " no loaded guns past this point".
Its also very ghetto, selling lots of kel-tecs and hi-points to the gang-banger type.
I cant say I blame them. I wouldnt want to die when someone whips a Hi-Point out of their belt and it goes off.
Its also very ghetto, selling lots of kel-tecs and hi-points to the gang-banger type.
I cant say I blame them. I wouldnt want to die when someone whips a Hi-Point out of their belt and it goes off.
Is the sign bullet-proof? Can you stand behind it? Does the sign get down off the wall and pat them all down as they enter?
Or does the sign only stop those responsible enough to obey safety and "property-owners'-rights" issues from carrying but not those with no regard for such things?
Wow...that does sound familiar, doesn't it? Sounds like a story I once heard about a law that only managed to keep the law-abiding folks from breaking it.
-Sam
Deltaboy1984
Member
Gun stores are businesses and need to carry insurance. Their inventories are subject to theft (as all stores are) and they have a liability for the actions of themselves and the store operation.
If the only insurance they can buy/afford requires this "no carry" policy, it seems pretty strange to me that you would "boycott" the store because they have to put up the policy.
In many cases, it might not even be the store owner's personal preference or even a choice (if they want to run the business where they are located). Granted, it may be personal policy for some owners, but don't they deserve some benefit of the doubt before you run them out of business?
If the only insurance they can buy/afford requires this "no carry" policy, it seems pretty strange to me that you would "boycott" the store because they have to put up the policy.
In many cases, it might not even be the store owner's personal preference or even a choice (if they want to run the business where they are located). Granted, it may be personal policy for some owners, but don't they deserve some benefit of the doubt before you run them out of business?
huntsman
Member
Maybe they should get the same insurance that the quickie-mart has or any other number of small business's have that allow CC, sorry not really buying the insurance angle.
You've mentioned this as a possibility. Do you have any evidence that it is so? I'm not arguing with you, exactly, as I'm not in the insurance business and don't know how these things might be written. However, it seems unlikely to me that insurers would know/understand/care about the intricacies of how gun shop owners manage the loaded/unloaded state of weapons -- especially of those they don't own and/or control.
As long as state laws are being followed, they probably don't dictate such things to store owners.
There are also a LOT of things that business owners pass off as "insurance regulations" that really aren't. My own boss does this with various issues (drug testing, for example) that he doesn't want to be seen as the bad guy over. So he just tells the employees that the insurance company makes him do it.
This is all my speculation, but absent any proof, it seems as good as yours.
And when a gun shop owner wants to step (at least a little) on my toes, so to speak, on a gun rights issue, I'm not going to just assume that there's some "out-of-my-hands" reason for it.
Obviously it doesn't bother the insurance carriers of Starbucks, Home Depot, WalMart, Bass Pro, Gander Mountain, Cabelas, etc. who have no beef with even open carry on their premises. So why would a GUN SHOP?
johnbt said:
The same thing happened to me at my local yamaha dealership! They wouldn't let me ride their motorcycle in the shop and I couldn't ride mine inside the store.
Can you imagine a motorcycle store against riding motorcycles!
Can you guys come up with a sillier argument against being "allowed" to carry in a gun shop? I'm sure you could find one that speaks less to the point if you try hard enough. Maybe rant and rave about how a grocery store won't let you eat the food in the aisles as long as you promise to leave it behind when you're "done" with it.
In case my point is somehow unclear: No one is saying that you should be allowed to use (SHOOT) your guns in the store. But to make you unconceal and clear your personal defensive sidearm -- which you would never use except in the extreme moment of need -- is absurd.
-Sam
Sam1911 - I have done some work with small business underwriters in the past. This type of requirement would absolutely be something I'd expect them to force.
But, my guessing aside, in post 85 c5_nc confirms that it is an insurance problem at his local shop.
But, my guessing aside, in post 85 c5_nc confirms that it is an insurance problem at his local shop.
Ok. I missed post 85. So in some instances it may be required. I wonder which carriers do make an issue of it and which don't. I've certainly never seen such a sign here (PA), in fact as I pointed out the signs around here specifically exempt CCW. Might have to make some inquiries...
A gunshop in the central part of the state has this same sign clearly posted on the door. The first time I saw it, I asked the guys inside what the logic might be. They fumbled around for a reasonable and finally came up, "Lots of bad guys out there," to which I gave them the logical reply: "All the more reason to be able to defend yourself, regardless of where you are." I don't stop at this shop any longer. I might be missing a deal of two -- but frankly, I'll never know.
glove
Member
I like that The bad guy sees the sign and says man they got a no gun sign posted we will have to put our guns in the car and than go back and rob the place. Funny
Dave Z
my fav shop and indoor range has a sign that says something along the lines of "firearms must be unloaded and in a case", but it is well understood and implied by their employees that this doesn't apply to CHL holders. If its concealed its concealed, they don't know, they don't care. They have the sign to remind the idiots that have no clue what they are doing and want to show up to shoot in the range with a pistol shoved in their waist band.
Knowing the guys that work there and their personal beliefs that sign doesn't bother me at all. A different shop, different employees I might have a different opinion but not there.
example of idiot that came in that shop one day: The guy was at another range, his walther jammed so he left then thought on the way home he wanted to get it unjammed so he stopped at this shop. He walks in the front door talking loudly, very unclearly through a heavy accent**, jerks the pistol out of his pocket and points it at the employee at the front desk.... four employees and 3 customers cleared leather on him before it all got sorted out. Those are the sort of people they want to have them unloaded and in a case.
** - I'm not picking on people with an accent or english as a 2nd language, it was just that he was so hard to understand no one could tell at first that his intent was to get a malfunctioning gun fixed.
Knowing the guys that work there and their personal beliefs that sign doesn't bother me at all. A different shop, different employees I might have a different opinion but not there.
example of idiot that came in that shop one day: The guy was at another range, his walther jammed so he left then thought on the way home he wanted to get it unjammed so he stopped at this shop. He walks in the front door talking loudly, very unclearly through a heavy accent**, jerks the pistol out of his pocket and points it at the employee at the front desk.... four employees and 3 customers cleared leather on him before it all got sorted out. Those are the sort of people they want to have them unloaded and in a case.
** - I'm not picking on people with an accent or english as a 2nd language, it was just that he was so hard to understand no one could tell at first that his intent was to get a malfunctioning gun fixed.
I have a standard answer to these situations.
If your gun is concealed, how are they gonna know? And if they don't know, why/how is it an issue? If you disagree with a business' policies don't shop there.
If your gun is concealed, how are they gonna know? And if they don't know, why/how is it an issue? If you disagree with a business' policies don't shop there.
people who do not themselves have their own money at risk in a business, their income dependent on the survival of that business, sure have a lot of opinions about how those that do ought to run their business
I do not, so I do not criticize choices made by those that do
But if I did, I would post mine, too, and anybody would just could not stand that would be respectfully welcome to take it elsewhere
I have no problem whatever understanding a business owner's concerns for his own safety, the safety of his employees, his insurance costs, overhead, etc.
Not unusual to read posts about AD/ND at gun ranges... WITH extremely competent ROs in charge... even when all participants are supposed to be competent competition class shooters.. even when they very deliberately provide a "special" place to load/unload
gun shops, gun shows...
300 varieties of joe-schmo-from-idaho-i-don't-know
trust them all, if you choose to, based on principles alone, but I would not
I don't trust my fellow unknown-to-me man, just walking the street after dark (which is why I wear a Colt, how about you ?)
and I keep a pretty close eye on people I share range time with, too
(at least they are mostly all in a straight line where more easily observed)
So...
If they have a sign on their door that says "No loaded/concealed guns allowed", no I don't care if it it is precisely legal or not
I respect their turf, same as I would expect (even demand) that they respect my turf, my l'il "castle"
I will leave it outside and/or unload it outside
or
I will keep it hidden, and keep my mouth shut about it
(hint, that is exactly what "concealed" means, last time I looked)
either way, I don't boycott people who exercise THEIR rights
I will not have angry words with owner about their "no CCW" policies
(I dunno, don't quite strike me as keeping my mouth shut about what I wear; I would figure that conversation would be a foregone implication)
RIGHTS are not about what everyone should always do
Rights are all about individual CHOICE.. your choice, their choice, my choice
those unwilling to respect the rights of others, deserve no rights for themselves
If if did "own at risk", I would much prefer the idiots of this world shoot themselves in the foot well OUTSIDE my door vs. inside my door
not my problem, it's the idiot's problem
How many AD/NDs inside would it take to inspire a change in attitude ?
PS
the world is not what we wish it was
If it was, we would all have ZERO need to wear a gun
PPS
anybody I personally know well enough, and respect enough, to invite into my own home, is welcome to CCW in my home, and they do not even have to ask
but if it is YOUR home I will ask, and will not carry in if you say, "druther you did not"
if you do not have a "perfect approved legal" sign on your door that says "no guns" and I ignore your druthers, you should kick my butt
I do not, so I do not criticize choices made by those that do
But if I did, I would post mine, too, and anybody would just could not stand that would be respectfully welcome to take it elsewhere
I have no problem whatever understanding a business owner's concerns for his own safety, the safety of his employees, his insurance costs, overhead, etc.
Not unusual to read posts about AD/ND at gun ranges... WITH extremely competent ROs in charge... even when all participants are supposed to be competent competition class shooters.. even when they very deliberately provide a "special" place to load/unload
gun shops, gun shows...
300 varieties of joe-schmo-from-idaho-i-don't-know
trust them all, if you choose to, based on principles alone, but I would not
I don't trust my fellow unknown-to-me man, just walking the street after dark (which is why I wear a Colt, how about you ?)
and I keep a pretty close eye on people I share range time with, too
(at least they are mostly all in a straight line where more easily observed)
So...
If they have a sign on their door that says "No loaded/concealed guns allowed", no I don't care if it it is precisely legal or not
I respect their turf, same as I would expect (even demand) that they respect my turf, my l'il "castle"
I will leave it outside and/or unload it outside
or
I will keep it hidden, and keep my mouth shut about it
(hint, that is exactly what "concealed" means, last time I looked)
either way, I don't boycott people who exercise THEIR rights
I will not have angry words with owner about their "no CCW" policies
(I dunno, don't quite strike me as keeping my mouth shut about what I wear; I would figure that conversation would be a foregone implication)
RIGHTS are not about what everyone should always do
Rights are all about individual CHOICE.. your choice, their choice, my choice
those unwilling to respect the rights of others, deserve no rights for themselves
If if did "own at risk", I would much prefer the idiots of this world shoot themselves in the foot well OUTSIDE my door vs. inside my door
not my problem, it's the idiot's problem
How many AD/NDs inside would it take to inspire a change in attitude ?
PS
the world is not what we wish it was
If it was, we would all have ZERO need to wear a gun
PPS
anybody I personally know well enough, and respect enough, to invite into my own home, is welcome to CCW in my home, and they do not even have to ask
but if it is YOUR home I will ask, and will not carry in if you say, "druther you did not"
if you do not have a "perfect approved legal" sign on your door that says "no guns" and I ignore your druthers, you should kick my butt
chas08
Member
Where I work it's called "Shotgun Justice". Where everyone has to pay for the irresponsible actions of a few. As one poster stated, if you are doing your part in properly concealing, and there is no legal violation. I'd just go about business as usual.
X-Rap
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chas has it nailed, a couple hundred posts of whining and crying about infringed rights boils down to a simple mind your own business and don't ask don't tell.
When ever there is a high concentration of guns, tools, garden tractors, knives or kitchen utensils and people there will be negligent behavior.
When was the last time you saw a home improvement show with all the tools plugged in or an accessible knife display that didn't have dulled edges.
We have all seen the idiot pull his gun in the shop and we also don't need to have every patron clearing their weapon outside the door of the store.
Just CC a different gun from home or your car if you need to have your EDC looked at or fit for a holster and try to understand the point of the shop owner who I'm sure is not anti gun.
Perhaps a suggestion on rewording a poorly done sign might help too.
When ever there is a high concentration of guns, tools, garden tractors, knives or kitchen utensils and people there will be negligent behavior.
When was the last time you saw a home improvement show with all the tools plugged in or an accessible knife display that didn't have dulled edges.
We have all seen the idiot pull his gun in the shop and we also don't need to have every patron clearing their weapon outside the door of the store.
Just CC a different gun from home or your car if you need to have your EDC looked at or fit for a holster and try to understand the point of the shop owner who I'm sure is not anti gun.
Perhaps a suggestion on rewording a poorly done sign might help too.
billj888
Member
They don't want people pulling loaded guns out of holsters randomly to compare, get a price etc. Best advice is to cc anyway which I would do. The sign puts you on notice not to pull the gun while salespeople are engaged with other customers.
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